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Post by RockawayHoya on Feb 22, 2021 13:53:31 GMT -5
We are not slowing down. Hoyas are averaging 70 possessions a game since the break and 69.8/game for the year. Not an appreciable difference. Easiest ways to cut down turnovers are to cut out the lazy entry passes (poor angles, no fake, etc.) and forcing guys to use two hands when passing instead of one. Those are just basic fundamentals. You probably also cut out a couple TOs per game if guys who post up can tell the difference between when they have an advantage and should put up a shot vs. when they don't and should kick it back out to the perimeter. We got a couple guys on staff who should know a thing or two on post play so this should have been cleaned up far more than it already has been, but you are starting to see a pass back out to the perimeter here and there when doubles come in recent games. Still nowhere near enough, but baby steps. Not to be argumentative, the possessions may be true. However, it seems like earlier in the year, that the guys were moving waaay too fast especially Dante. I'm making reference to the pace of the game and not necessarily the number of possessions though there may be some correlation. As far as the basic fundamentals that you're suggesting, is it even possible to implement at this point. Could there be strategic adjustments we could make like for example having the ball in Dante's hands the majority of the time in our possessions? Or, do you think that would take away from the flow of the offense and affect our play adversely? The possession numbers are the numbers, they're all right here: barttorvik.com/team.php?team=Georgetown Whether you believe them to be true or not is irrelevant. Dante's played a lot better as of late and I do agree with you that he's slowly becoming acclimated to the speed of the college game. You can see it clearly in the numbers here: D. Harris (before break): 3.8 TO/40, 0.96:1 A/TO ratio D. Harris (after break): 3.0 TO/40, 1.9:1 A/TO ratio That being said, while he's the guy I'd want to have the ball because he's unselfish and has shown an improvement in distributing, he's not necessarily the guy I'd want to have the ball the majority of the time if my primary goal is to cut down on turnovers. Dante still has an extremely high TO% (26.5%, highest of the main 7 rotation guys). Just way too many turnovers still for a guy with as low a usage rate as he has. But you live with it because he's a freshman and you like that the A/TO ratio is really starting to improve. What about the recently anointed whipping boy for turnovers? Blair got a lot of criticism and deservedly so for that 9 TO game vs Creighton. Here are his pre/post COVID splits: J. Blair (before break): 2.8 TO/40, 1.4:1 A/TO ratio J. Blair (after break): 3.2 TO/40, 1.9:1 A/TO ratio The A/TO ratios are basically identical, but Blair's much higher usage gives him a much lower TO% (17.9%, lowest of the 7 main rotation guys but still not anywhere near good). Either way, neither is a model for ball security at this point. I'm sure I'm stating the obvious. The better question is whether or not we can implement anything this late in the season. With really no one on this current roster seemingly valuing the ball at this point with 5-6 games to go, probably not. Bad habits that persist over time and are allowed to continue will not all of a sudden go away. For now, just have to hope that our perimeter shots keeping falling, we continue to force an acceptable level of turnovers of our own, and we continue to beat teams on the glass.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Feb 22, 2021 13:58:43 GMT -5
Turnovers by game: 20, 13, 15, 26, 12, 17, 13, 14, 17, 15, 12, 7, 13, 14, 24, 23, 18
Bold = post-break games This year is actually the worst team we've ever had at turning it over, based on turnover rate, going back to 1997, which is when KenPom first has those stats. Georgetown has never been particularly good at holding onto the ball. In fact, since 1997 the ONLY year where Georgetown was top 100 in turnover rate on offense was the 2006 team, which was 37th. Otherwise, this year we are ranked 316 of 357 teams. The next worst years were 2018 (309th) and 2017 (282nd). Even the 2007 Final Four team was ranked 211 in turnover rate on offense.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2021 14:09:38 GMT -5
Not to be argumentative, the possessions may be true. However, it seems like earlier in the year, that the guys were moving waaay too fast especially Dante. I'm making reference to the pace of the game and not necessarily the number of possessions though there may be some correlation. As far as the basic fundamentals that you're suggesting, is it even possible to implement at this point. Could there be strategic adjustments we could make like for example having the ball in Dante's hands the majority of the time in our possessions? Or, do you think that would take away from the flow of the offense and affect our play adversely? The possession numbers are the numbers, they're all right here: barttorvik.com/team.php?team=Georgetown Whether you believe them to be true or not is irrelevant. Dante's played a lot better as of late and I do agree with you that he's slowly becoming acclimated to the speed of the college game. You can see it clearly in the numbers here: D. Harris (before break): 3.8 TO/40, 0.96:1 A/TO ratio D. Harris (after break): 3.0 TO/40, 1.9:1 A/TO ratio That being said, while he's the guy I'd want to have the ball because he's unselfish and has shown an improvement in distributing, he's not necessarily the guy I'd want to have the ball the majority of the time if my primary goal is to cut down on turnovers. Dante still has an extremely high TO% (26.5%, highest of the main 7 rotation guys). Just way too many turnovers still for a guy with as low a usage rate as he has. But you live with it because he's a freshman and you like that the A/TO ratio is really starting to improve. What about the recently anointed whipping boy for turnovers? Blair got a lot of criticism and deservedly so for that 9 TO game vs Creighton. Here are his pre/post COVID splits: J. Blair (before break): 2.8 TO/40, 1.4:1 A/TO ratio J. Blair (after break): 3.2 TO/40, 1.9:1 A/TO ratio The A/TO ratios are basically identical, but Blair's much higher usage gives him a much lower TO% (17.9%, lowest of the 7 main rotation guys but still not anywhere near good). Either way, neither is a model for ball security at this point. I'm sure I'm stating the obvious. The better question is whether or not we can implement anything this late in the season. With really no one on this current roster seemingly valuing the ball at this point with 5-6 games to go, probably not. Bad habits that persist over time and are allowed to continue will not all of a sudden go away. For now, just have to hope that our perimeter shots keeping falling, we continue to force an acceptable level of turnovers of our own, and we continue to beat teams on the glass. Dude I'm not arguing with you about whether or not the possessions are true. In fact, I said they may be true but possessions and pace are not the same thing although they may be correlated. The guy who responded to me the first time said that we were playing too fast (pace) which led to us having so many turnovers earlier in the season, which I agree with. So we may have the same number of possessions, which what you were saying but our pace may have slowed down. We can still get the same number of possessions and yet not move as fast. Correct? Everything else you mention makes sense. However, are you saying no to Dante possessing the ball in his hands more during our possessions? If we could have Dante dribbling more as opposed to everyone else when we are in possession of the ball, would that make a difference? Dante has improved more than anyone else with Assist to turnover. Blair, we already know has fumble hands so to me, talking about Blair is irrelevant unless you're talking about having him pass the ball and not dribble as much. My thing is, not have him dribbling as much. Maybe have him to pass off the screen most of the time like he did when he got the ball to Carey. Do you think it isn't possible to make these small adjustments? Other than that, I do understand what you're saying about bad habits.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2021 14:14:19 GMT -5
Not to be argumentative, the possessions may be true. However, it seems like earlier in the year, that the guys were moving waaay too fast especially Dante. I'm making reference to the pace of the game and not necessarily the number of possessions though there may be some correlation. As far as the basic fundamentals that you're suggesting, is it even possible to implement at this point. Could there be strategic adjustments we could make like for example having the ball in Dante's hands the majority of the time in our possessions? Or, do you think that would take away from the flow of the offense and affect our play adversely? The possession numbers are the numbers, they're all right here: barttorvik.com/team.php?team=Georgetown Whether you believe them to be true or not is irrelevant. Dante's played a lot better as of late and I do agree with you that he's slowly becoming acclimated to the speed of the college game. You can see it clearly in the numbers here: D. Harris (before break): 3.8 TO/40, 0.96:1 A/TO ratio D. Harris (after break): 3.0 TO/40, 1.9:1 A/TO ratio That being said, while he's the guy I'd want to have the ball because he's unselfish and has shown an improvement in distributing, he's not necessarily the guy I'd want to have the ball the majority of the time if my primary goal is to cut down on turnovers. Dante still has an extremely high TO% (26.5%, highest of the main 7 rotation guys). Just way too many turnovers still for a guy with as low a usage rate as he has. But you live with it because he's a freshman and you like that the A/TO ratio is really starting to improve. What about the recently anointed whipping boy for turnovers? Blair got a lot of criticism and deservedly so for that 9 TO game vs Creighton. Here are his pre/post COVID splits: J. Blair (before break): 2.8 TO/40, 1.4:1 A/TO ratio J. Blair (after break): 3.2 TO/40, 1.9:1 A/TO ratio The A/TO ratios are basically identical, but Blair's much higher usage gives him a much lower TO% (17.9%, lowest of the 7 main rotation guys but still not anywhere near good). Either way, neither is a model for ball security at this point. I'm sure I'm stating the obvious. The better question is whether or not we can implement anything this late in the season. With really no one on this current roster seemingly valuing the ball at this point with 5-6 games to go, probably not. Bad habits that persist over time and are allowed to continue will not all of a sudden go away. For now, just have to hope that our perimeter shots keeping falling, we continue to force an acceptable level of turnovers of our own, and we continue to beat teams on the glass. You answered the question about Dante and him having the ball more in the possessions. My Bad. I thought Dante's Assist to turnover got better but you proved it hasn't. Thanks!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2021 14:19:18 GMT -5
So the future looks bleak since we are turnover prone. Could the kid Beard help us out with alleviating turnovers next year?
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Feb 22, 2021 16:22:01 GMT -5
I think something that has helped with the turnovers not hurting us so much is we seem to be having less live ball turnovers than before.
If you look at the point of off turnovers stats in the games since the break:
Providence: Hoya TOs: 7 Opponent pts off of TO 3, Opponent TOs: 6 Hoya Pts off of TOs:6 Pts off of turnover difference: +3 @crieghton: Hoya TOs: 13 Opponent pts off of TO 15, Opponent TOs: 15 Hoya Pts off of TOs:19 Pts off of turnover difference:+4 @nova: Hoya TOs: 14 Opponent pts off of TO 18, Opponent TOs: 12 Hoya Pts off of TOs:17 Pts off of turnover difference: -1 Creighton: Hoya TOs: 24 Opponent pts off of TO 19, Opponent TOs:17 Hoya Pts off of TOs:14 Pts off of turnover difference -5 Butler: Hoya TOs: 23 Opponent pts off of TO 25, Opponent TOs: 15 Hoya Pts off of TOs:20 Pts off of turnover difference:-5 Seton Hall: Hoya TOs:18 Opponent pts off of TO 17, Opponent TOs:13 Hoya Pts off of TOs: 15: Pts off of turnover difference: -2
We're winning the points off of turnovers battle or keeping it close even when we have high turnover numbers. That tells me we're committing less live ball turnovers that lead to easy points for the other team.
Pre COVID( Not including UMBC or Coppin St) Navy: Pts off of turnover difference: -14 WV: Pts off of turnover difference: -17 Nova: Pts off of turnover difference: -17 St. John's: Pts off of turnover difference: +5 @ St. John's: Pts off of turnover difference: -4 @ Seton Hall: Pts off of turnover difference: -4 Marquette: Pts off of turnover difference: -8 @ Butler: Pts off of turnover difference: -12 @ Cuse: Pts off of turnover difference: -3
Pretty clear this is where we lost the Navy, WV, Nova, Marquette, and @ Butler Games.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2021 16:37:49 GMT -5
I think something that has helped with the turnovers not hurting us so much is we seem to be having less live ball turnovers than before. If you look at the point of off turnovers stats in the games since the break: Providence: Hoya TOs: 7 Opponent pts off of TO 3, Opponent TOs: 6 Hoya Pts off of TOs:6 Pts off of turnover difference: +3 @crieghton: Hoya TOs: 13 Opponent pts off of TO 15, Opponent TOs: 15 Hoya Pts off of TOs:19 Pts off of turnover difference:+4 @nova: Hoya TOs: 14 Opponent pts off of TO 18, Opponent TOs: 12 Hoya Pts off of TOs:17 Pts off of turnover difference: -1 Creighton: Hoya TOs: 24 Opponent pts off of TO 19, Opponent TOs:17 Hoya Pts off of TOs:14 Pts off of turnover difference -5 Butler: Hoya TOs: 23 Opponent pts off of TO 25, Opponent TOs: 15 Hoya Pts off of TOs:20 Pts off of turnover difference:-5 Seton Hall: Hoya TOs:18 Opponent pts off of TO 17, Opponent TOs:13 Hoya Pts off of TOs: 15: Pts off of turnover difference: -2 We're winning the points off of turnovers battle or keeping it close even when we have high turnover numbers. That tells me we're committing less live ball turnovers that lead to easy points for the other team. Pre COVID( Not including UMBC or Coppin St) Navy: Pts off of turnover difference: -14 WV: Pts off of turnover difference: -17 Nova: Pts off of turnover difference: -17 St. John's: Pts off of turnover difference: +5 @ St. John's: Pts off of turnover difference: -4 @ Seton Hall: Pts off of turnover difference: -4 Marquette: Pts off of turnover difference: -8 @ Butler: Pts off of turnover difference: -12 @ Cuse: Pts off of turnover difference: -3 Pretty clear this is where we lost the Navy, WV, Nova, Marquette, and @ Butler Games. Very very interesting!
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seaweed
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Post by seaweed on Feb 22, 2021 17:06:51 GMT -5
Yeah, thanks for the stats. I do understand what you're saying about us playing fast (leading to more turnovers) and I had made the suggestion before the break that perhaps coach should slow it down a little to cut down on the turnovers especially where it came to Dante. I feel like they have slowed down their pace tremendously since. Surely, we've gotten it down a little bit right since Dante has been playing better? I know for a fact that at least Dante's turnovers have reduced since the break. Are we below the numbers we were at per a game before the break? If not, how do we get there? How can we get to ten turnovers a game or should we just forget about it and just keep hoping our offense continues to flourish and translating to wins? We are not slowing down. Hoyas are averaging 70 possessions a game since the break and 69.8/game for the year. Not an appreciable difference.Of course one way to increase the number of possessions per game is to turn the ball over a lot... Beat UConn! Let Pickett guard Bouknight 1 2 3 Fireball
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Post by professorhoya on Feb 22, 2021 18:44:59 GMT -5
Welcome back to the Big East UConn!
Now prepare to get destroyed.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Feb 22, 2021 21:34:21 GMT -5
Everyone on our team turns it over. Blair is the best at not doing it relative to shots and assists, but we're awful.
The two best ways to improve turnover % are probably inadvisable/impossible:
1. Change personnel. As noted, no one on our team really takes care of the ball relative to creating a positive action ... so, wait 'til next year? 2. Shoot quickly.
The latter is an NBA tactic, and while we are shooting the three well right now, I don't think this team would do all that well in a 7 seconds or less environment.
Since they are college kids, I am sure that over time they can work on ball security, decision-making, handling skills, passing, etc. But that again is unlikely to occur before the end of the season.
We've been terrible for a long while, but at least with the early days of JTIII, it was largely because we held onto the ball for high percentage shots. There was something of an offset. I think we actually have some of that here -- even at our best, we are moving the ball around a lot.
But I don't think we have the player to come down and shoot without risking a TO. Next year with Aminu we may. One ball dominant scorer with a low TO rate -- like 12%, can somewhat fix an offense this way. Especially if Wahab learns to pass.
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Post by augustusfinknottle on Feb 23, 2021 8:11:36 GMT -5
“Let’s get rid of this ball.....before something bad happens”.
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rhw485
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Post by rhw485 on Feb 23, 2021 8:51:10 GMT -5
Everyone on our team turns it over. Blair is the best at not doing it relative to shots and assists, but we're awful. The two best ways to improve turnover % are probably inadvisable/impossible: 1. Change personnel. As noted, no one on our team really takes care of the ball relative to creating a positive action ... so, wait 'til next year? 2. Shoot quickly. The latter is an NBA tactic, and while we are shooting the three well right now, I don't think this team would do all that well in a 7 seconds or less environment. Since they are college kids, I am sure that over time they can work on ball security, decision-making, handling skills, passing, etc. But that again is unlikely to occur before the end of the season. We've been terrible for a long while, but at least with the early days of JTIII, it was largely because we held onto the ball for high percentage shots. There was something of an offset. I think we actually have some of that here -- even at our best, we are moving the ball around a lot. But I don't think we have the player to come down and shoot without risking a TO. Next year with Aminu we may. One ball dominant scorer with a low TO rate -- like 12%, can somewhat fix an offense this way. Especially if Wahab learns to pass. The last few points I'll make on turnovers and then will try and steer us back towards the UConn game: - Not that I'm turning this into a positive...but on offense, turnovers really are the biggest thing holding us back. We get a ton of offensive rebounds, our effective fg% is solid (thanks to 3s) and we shoot a pretty good FT rate (would like to shoot more of them obv). I was going to try and re-calc our offensive efficiency assuming like a 20% turnover rate instead of what we're doing (assuming we score the same ppp on non-turnover possessions) but the games get weighted differently and garbage time stuff gets excluded so its a little too difficult
- We are right to talk about turnovers in that I just scanned the 50 most efficient offenses...and only 2 (Florida / Auburn) have a turnover percentage over 20%, while we're at 22.4%. It's really difficult to be efficient at offense giving the ball away this much
- Long term I'm not super worried about the offense Ewing runs. We've finished in the top 60 two out of his first three years per Bart Torvik. The defense is what's ultimately going to drive whether Ewing can sustain some success. The numbers have been good the last few weeks, that's probably where the focus needs to be
So speaking of defense as it relates to UConn, I really don't want us doubling Sanogo or Whaley in the post. Let them try and score 1-on-1, they're not efficient offensive players. And I really want Ewing to have Blair running through all sorts of double screen action to tired out Bouknight. This team trains hard to be in great shape and play a ton of minutes, make Bouknight work for it
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jwp91
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Post by jwp91 on Feb 23, 2021 9:22:03 GMT -5
And Bounight’s current conditioning is questionable due to missed time from his injury.
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bostonfan
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Post by bostonfan on Feb 23, 2021 10:45:08 GMT -5
And Bounight’s current conditioning is questionable due to missed time from his injury. Bouknight is an exceptional offensive player and has a bright NBA future. He is one of those guys that you just hope you can make it hard on him all game and slow him down. He is going to score, just stay with whatever game plan the staff has and hopefully contain the rest of the their offense and this should be close game. UConn is a strong rebounding team and this will be a big test for the Hoyas on the glass. They need everyone on the floor, including the guards, to rebound because the UConn wings crash the boards and keep balls/plays alive. Georgetown has done well i transition on some the recent games but this is not a game where the guards can start leaking out early hoping for a fast break.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Feb 23, 2021 11:46:57 GMT -5
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Post by HometownHoya on Feb 23, 2021 12:18:38 GMT -5
GAMEDAY!!!
Hope the guys got their rest last night, these 9pm starts aren't easy. The TOs have been discussed these last few pages but another key again is winning on the boards. UConn will crash the boards on offense looking for easy baskets so we need to box out, REBOUND, and get the ball moving the other way. Hopefully our fast break is clean and we don't have TOs on man up situations. Keep the ball movement up and get those set shots and we will continue to see a high shooting %, the guys just need to let them fly in rhythm. Like I said in the SH post game thread, if we get the confident shooting Pickett, we're going to have a very fun spring...hope he gets his shot off cleanly, early, and makes a ton.
Go Hoyas!
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calhoya
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Post by calhoya on Feb 23, 2021 12:29:27 GMT -5
Looking for consistency in effort and commitment to ball movement, taking care of the ball, not forcing shots, and playing strong defense. It's the next step in the development of team and program.
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daveg023
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Post by daveg023 on Feb 23, 2021 12:44:22 GMT -5
Uconn -4.5.
Given SHU was a 4 point favorite we didn’t really get any bump and/or Vegas thinks more highly of Uconn than SHU.
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hoyaduck
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Post by hoyaduck on Feb 23, 2021 12:52:43 GMT -5
Uconn -4.5. Given SHU was a 4 point favorite we didn’t really get any bump and/or Vegas thinks more highly of Uconn than SHU. I think Vegas is pretty bullish on UConn because Bouknight had a strong performance in his second game back (21pts / 10reb) and they like bubble teams that need wins to stay in the conversation.
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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Feb 23, 2021 14:28:29 GMT -5
I think Uconn really has the potential to become the team I hate the most in the BE. I can even see them surpassing Cuse because with Cuse not in the conference it just doesn't mean as much. I'm looking forward to tonight since I feel like I haven't witnessed a UConn team since they were relegated to the AAC which I am pretty sure is a made up conference.
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