DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on May 7, 2019 13:49:03 GMT -5
It’s easy to discount rankings, but let’s ask the question: when was the last impact player at Georgetown ranked outside the top 100, excepting Jon Wallace? Jabril Trawick and Mac McClung Agree to disagree. The last impact player on this roster was (probably) Otto Porter.
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LCPolo18
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Post by LCPolo18 on May 7, 2019 14:11:43 GMT -5
Jabril Trawick and Mac McClung Agree to disagree. The last impact player on this roster was (probably) Otto Porter. Sure, if your definition of "impact player" is a player that has similar credentials to Otto Porter's Sophomore year (Big East Player of the Year, a finalist for the Naismith Trophy and Wooden Award, and third overall pick in the NBA draft) then no Georgetown has not had an "impact player" ranked outside of the top 100 probably since Jeff Green and Roy Hibbert. But a player that started every game he played in his Senior year (Trawick) and a player that started every game he played in his Freshman year (McClung), or even your example of Jonathan Wallace are more impactful than an end of the rotation player, which is what most people might expect from a player ranked outside of the top 100. To bring it back to Myron Gardner, I personally don't expect him to be the next Otto Porter or Jeff Green, but if he's the next Jabril Trawick then I'll certainly be happy with his impact as a player on the Hoyas.
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Post by goyahoya69 on May 7, 2019 14:54:46 GMT -5
Agree to disagree. The last impact player on this roster was (probably) Otto Porter. Sure, if your definition of "impact player" is a player that has similar credentials to Otto Porter's Sophomore year (Big East Player of the Year, a finalist for the Naismith Trophy and Wooden Award, and third overall pick in the NBA draft) then no Georgetown has not had an "impact player" ranked outside of the top 100 probably since Jeff Green and Roy Hibbert. But a player that started every game he played in his Senior year (Trawick) and a player that started every game he played in his Freshman year (McClung), or even your example of Jonathan Wallace are more impactful than an end of the rotation player, which is what most people might expect from a player ranked outside of the top 100. To bring it back to Myron Gardner, I personally don't expect him to be the next Otto Porter or Jeff Green, but if he's the next Jabril Trawick then I'll certainly be happy with his impact as a player on the Hoyas. i still believe in my heart that if jabril didn't get hurt so early in that game vs utah, we would've been in the sweet 16 at least. he scored like 8 out of our first 10 points that game. we came out on like a 10-2 run. we need more jabrils on our team, and ewing seems to know that. jabril got better every single year on the hilltop.
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vv83
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Post by vv83 on May 7, 2019 14:59:25 GMT -5
Sure, if your definition of "impact player" is a player that has similar credentials to Otto Porter's Sophomore year (Big East Player of the Year, a finalist for the Naismith Trophy and Wooden Award, and third overall pick in the NBA draft) then no Georgetown has not had an "impact player" ranked outside of the top 100 probably since Jeff Green and Roy Hibbert. But a player that started every game he played in his Senior year (Trawick) and a player that started every game he played in his Freshman year (McClung), or even your example of Jonathan Wallace are more impactful than an end of the rotation player, which is what most people might expect from a player ranked outside of the top 100. To bring it back to Myron Gardner, I personally don't expect him to be the next Otto Porter or Jeff Green, but if he's the next Jabril Trawick then I'll certainly be happy with his impact as a player on the Hoyas. i still believe in my heart that if jabril didn't get hurt so early in that game vs utah, we would've been in the sweet 16 at least. he scored like 8 out of our first 10 points that game. we came out on like a 10-2 run. we need more jabrils on our team, and ewing seems to know that. jabril got better every single year on the hilltop. Completely agree on the Utah game. When Jabril went out, we lost control of that game. We had so few intense leaders on those teams, losing Jabril seemed to sap the will of the team - at least a bit. Hopefully Ewing is loading the roster with those kind of players now. That certainly seems to be his goal - aggressive, intense, physical players throughout the roster. The group coming in this season looks really promising from this perspective, in addition to their basketball skills.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on May 7, 2019 15:00:08 GMT -5
As has been discussed ad nauseum, the recruiting rankings are often wrong, but on average, the higher a player is ranked the more likely it is they'll turn out positive. But it's very inexact. Is there a possibility somebody outside the top 100 will be a really good player for us? Certainly. McClung is probably the best candidate for that, maybe Wahab next in line.
All that being said, you don't put together a marquee team finding diamonds in the rough. I think it needs to be a balanced approach. More success on the court this coming season would make the ability to get the 4 star/top 100 types a lot easier.
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hoyalaw33
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Post by hoyalaw33 on May 7, 2019 15:35:15 GMT -5
As has been discussed ad nauseum, the recruiting rankings are often wrong, but on average, the higher a player is ranked the more likely it is they'll turn out positive. But it's very inexact. Is there a possibility somebody outside the top 100 will be a really good player for us? Certainly. McClung is probably the best candidate for that, maybe Wahab next in line. All that being said, you don't put together a marquee team finding diamonds in the rough. I think it needs to be a balanced approach. More success on the court this coming season would make the ability to get the 4 star/top 100 types a lot easier. 2003, I'd agree to an extent and obviously your statement would tend to be true if we went back and looked at the final four teams over the last decade, but Texas Tech and Auburn specialized in finding diamonds in the rough and were arguably the two best teams in the country last year (yeah yeah I know UVA won, but they had God on their side). There are many ways to skin a cat in college ball because the skill level isn't as refined as the professional game. We do need to start nabbing kids in that 40-100 range consistently if our fan base expects us to trot out a top 25 team year after year.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2019 15:37:59 GMT -5
There's not a lot of difference between a kid ranked 75 and a kid ranked 150.. Fit and developing the talent you have is more important than ranking. You can win a lot of games by knowing what you want and recruiting to that type regardless of ranking. Wichita St, Cincinnati, WVU all do it, and have a lot of success. You're not going to see a lot of 4 star kids on those rosters.
That being said, currently 4/5 starters are 4 stars, and we have 6 kids on the team that are 4 star players. I don't know why that matters, but if that's your metric, that's pretty descent.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2019 15:47:26 GMT -5
As has been discussed ad nauseum, the recruiting rankings are often wrong, but on average, the higher a player is ranked the more likely it is they'll turn out positive. But it's very inexact. Is there a possibility somebody outside the top 100 will be a really good player for us? Certainly. McClung is probably the best candidate for that, maybe Wahab next in line. All that being said, you don't put together a marquee team finding diamonds in the rough. I think it needs to be a balanced approach. More success on the court this coming season would make the ability to get the 4 star/top 100 types a lot easier. 2003, I'd agree to an extent and obviously your statement would tend to be true if we went back and looked at the final four teams over the last decade, but Texas Tech and Auburn specialized in finding diamonds in the rough and were arguably the two best teams in the country last year (yeah yeah I know UVA won, but they had God on their side). There are many ways to skin a cat in college ball because the skill level isn't as refined as the professional game. We do need to start nabbing kids in that 40-100 range consistently if our fan base expects us to trot out a top 25 team year after year. Auburn had four top 100 kids. Two were role/bench players who played around 15mpg. Their leading scorer was ranked #369 coming out of high school. Tech had only 1 top 100 kid in their rotation 247sports.com/player/bryce-brown-27908/
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Post by Ranch Dressing on May 7, 2019 17:10:37 GMT -5
I don't think the recruiting blueprint is a mystery or all that different from JTIII.
As a non-blue blood program without the pick of the litter, our success at recruiting will depend on our ability to execute on a hybrid strategy of: 1) recruiting Top 150-300 diamond in the rough players who out-perform their ranking (Green, Hibbert, Wallace); 2) consistently in the hunt and signing Top 50-150 players who meet expectation (Wright, Clark, Sapp, Summers, Starks, Hollis, Jabril); and 3) occasionally (every 2-3 years) pop up to sign a legit Top 50 player who elevates the program (e.g., Freeman, Monroe, Porter).
The very early returns are that Coach Pat is doing as well as can be expected in the first two areas. To really elevate us, however, he will need to sign a big name in Class of 2020/2021.
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Post by hoyas big supporter on May 7, 2019 17:17:59 GMT -5
2003, I'd agree to an extent and obviously your statement would tend to be true if we went back and looked at the final four teams over the last decade, but Texas Tech and Auburn specialized in finding diamonds in the rough and were arguably the two best teams in the country last year (yeah yeah I know UVA won, but they had God on their side). There are many ways to skin a cat in college ball because the skill level isn't as refined as the professional game. We do need to start nabbing kids in that 40-100 range consistently if our fan base expects us to trot out a top 25 team year after year. Auburn had four top 100 kids. Two were role/bench players who played around 15mpg. Their leading scorer was ranked #369 coming out of high school. Tech had only 1 top 100 kid in their rotation 247sports.com/player/bryce-brown-27908/You would think having three freshman, deservedly, on the All Freshman team would widen people’s perspective on recruiting a little bit...
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Post by hoyas big supporter on May 7, 2019 17:19:11 GMT -5
I don't think the recruiting blueprint is a mystery or all that different from JTIII. As a non-blue blood program without the pick of the litter, our success at recruiting will depend on our ability to execute on a hybrid strategy of: 1) recruiting Top 150-300 diamond in the rough players who out-perform their ranking (Green, Hibbert, Wallace); 2) consistently in the hunt and signing Top 50-150 players who meet expectation (Wright, Clark, Sapp, Summers, Starks, Hollis, Jabril); and 3) occasionally (every 2-3 years) pop up to sign a legit Top 50 player who elevates the program (e.g., Freeman, Monroe, Porter). The very early returns are that Coach Pat is doing as well as can be expected in the first two areas. To really elevate us, however, he will need to sign a big name in Class of 2020/2021. It is different. Pat recruits dogs, JT3 recruited valedictorians. Both have a place at GU, and the two are also not mutually exclusive.
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Bigs"R"Us
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on May 7, 2019 17:33:47 GMT -5
JT3 didn’t grind hard enough and never had a Plan B. He did land some good players, especially early on. Ewing seems to be everywhere.
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Post by Ranch Dressing on May 7, 2019 22:00:51 GMT -5
JT3 didn’t grind hard enough and never had a Plan B. He did land some good players, especially early on. Ewing seems to be everywhere. JT3 landed a great class on paper toward the end in Copeland, Peak, White, and Campbell. Maybe he wasn’t signing “dogs” but he was consistently signing Top 50-75 talent. He had Georgetown consistently at the top of a very strong Big East for the better part of his 12 year run. He had ample recruiting success. It was the combination of talent plus system that didn’t always produce satisfactory results, especially come tournament time.
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Post by daytonahoya31 on May 8, 2019 0:09:38 GMT -5
As has been discussed ad nauseum, the recruiting rankings are often wrong, but on average, the higher a player is ranked the more likely it is they'll turn out positive. But it's very inexact. Is there a possibility somebody outside the top 100 will be a really good player for us? Certainly. McClung is probably the best candidate for that, maybe Wahab next in line. All that being said, you don't put together a marquee team finding diamonds in the rough. I think it needs to be a balanced approach. More success on the court this coming season would make the ability to get the 4 star/top 100 types a lot easier. Ok we just had three of the top four freshmen in the conference, two of which were solid four star guys. Clearly recruiting raw talent hasn’t been an issue
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SaxaCD
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Post by SaxaCD on May 8, 2019 0:40:31 GMT -5
JT3 didn’t grind hard enough and never had a Plan B. He did land some good players, especially early on. Ewing seems to be everywhere. JT3 landed a great class on paper toward the end in Copeland, Peak, White, and Campbell. Maybe he wasn’t signing “dogs” but he was consistently signing Top 50-75 talent. He had Georgetown consistently at the top of a very strong Big East for the better part of his 12 year run. He had ample recruiting success. The combination of talent and system didn’t produce results, especially come tournament time. I think it's much more important to get the right guys for what you are trying to do. That great on paper class had only one guy that fit JT3 ball well in White, and he had his injury problems. The other guys were nice players, and I loved peak,but I think he would've fit Ewing's style even better, and JT3 would have been better off getting the great ball handlers, ball movers and pure shooters that make his style hum. So much about fit. The good thing is today you can better mix things up by bringing in a perhaps underrated Gardner along with a couple of grad transfers with Div 1 experience and a transfer like Yurt and you really might have something,ratings be damned. We shall see, but I look at our revamped roster and see much more talent and depth than we've had in quite a while.
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Bigs"R"Us
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on May 8, 2019 6:52:24 GMT -5
I think it’s a lot easier these days to find talent late in the game to strengthen your roster. However, the key is quickly making the pieces fit into a cohesive unit. Also, it seems like transfers are going to be the norm in college hoops. Not something to panic over if contained.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on May 8, 2019 7:26:08 GMT -5
JT3 landed a great class on paper toward the end in Copeland, Peak, White, and Campbell. Maybe he wasn’t signing “dogs” but he was consistently signing Top 50-75 talent. He had Georgetown consistently at the top of a very strong Big East for the better part of his 12 year run. He had ample recruiting success. The combination of talent and system didn’t produce results, especially come tournament time. I think it's much more important to get the right guys for what you are trying to do. That great on paper class had only one guy that fit JT3 ball well in White, and he had his injury problems. The other guys were nice players, and I loved peak,but I think he would've fit Ewing's style even better, and JT3 would have been better off getting the great ball handlers, ball movers and pure shooters that make his style hum. So much about fit. The good thing is today you can better mix things up by bringing in a perhaps underrated Gardner along with a couple of grad transfers with Div 1 experience and a transfer like Yurt and you really might have something,ratings be damned. We shall see, but I look at our revamped roster and see much more talent and depth than we've had in quite a while. Did you think Ike & LJ weren’t “fits” after their freshman year?
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SaxaCD
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Post by SaxaCD on May 8, 2019 8:09:17 GMT -5
I think it's much more important to get the right guys for what you are trying to do. That great on paper class had only one guy that fit JT3 ball well in White, and he had his injury problems. The other guys were nice players, and I loved peak,but I think he would've fit Ewing's style even better, and JT3 would have been better off getting the great ball handlers, ball movers and pure shooters that make his style hum. So much about fit. The good thing is today you can better mix things up by bringing in a perhaps underrated Gardner along with a couple of grad transfers with Div 1 experience and a transfer like Yurt and you really might have something,ratings be damned. We shall see, but I look at our revamped roster and see much more talent and depth than we've had in quite a while. Did you think Ike & LJ weren’t “fits” after their freshman year? I liked both of them, and LJ was a personal favorite, from watching his HS highlights through his whole hoya career. I was glad to get them both, but in retrospect, I think JT 3 would have had more success going after more point forward types. Even after all this time I'm not sure what what to make of Ike. He just seemed to lose confidence in himself. Last reply on this thread though,hate derailing them.
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OldHoyafan
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Post by OldHoyafan on May 8, 2019 9:19:02 GMT -5
The five star ratings are a good barometer for people like us who are not able to see them in person ourselves, but I am a believer in the “eye test”. I know the videos made on most of these kids tend to show how proficient they are in dunking the ball, but when I watched the videos of Gardner you could see he had the skills that were missing from this years small forward position. He had the handle to get to the basket and finish. He had the nose for the ball to rebound proficiently and lastly he had an “attitude” that his opponent could not stop him from scoring. The only thing you could not tell from the videos was his proficiency with the 3pt shot. He seemed to have a nice midrange game that can be improved upon like Moseley did this year..
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Post by johnnysnowplow on May 8, 2019 10:45:56 GMT -5
The five star ratings are a good barometer for people like us who are not able to see them in person ourselves, but I am a believer in the “eye test”. I know the videos made on most of these kids tend to show how proficient they are in dunking the ball, but when I watched the videos of Gardner you could see he had the skills that were missing from this years small forward position. He had the handle to get to the basket and finish. He had the nose for the ball to rebound proficiently and lastly he had an “attitude” that his opponent could not stop him from scoring. The only thing you could not tell from the videos was his proficiency with the 3pt shot. He seemed to have a nice midrange game that can be improved upon like Moseley did this year.. I agree with this. I’d also add that from the videos it appears he’s a pretty good passer as well.
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