prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Jan 11, 2019 11:36:23 GMT -5
It helps to recruit self-motivated players that live in the gym. This x 100.
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kettlehill
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Post by kettlehill on Jan 11, 2019 11:41:13 GMT -5
Not talking about recruiting, all good there so far. When watching the Hoyas since Patrick’s arrival the networks ( Fox/CBS) have focused on him so much that it’s hard to visually get an idea of the coaching dynamic beyond him. Who is taking a player aside and getting in his ear? Or for that mater, who is getting in Patrick’s ear in game. I worry that the whole “Legendary” deal might be getting in his head to the extent that he puts it all on himself. I guess the head coach of a major program is always a dictator to some extent......
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2019 11:45:14 GMT -5
However you want to describe it the roster Pat inherited was at best the second worst roster in the BE.
You need to give our young guys time to develop.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 11, 2019 11:52:44 GMT -5
I guess you could say JT3 walked into a better situation but he also started in a much tougher conference. Bottom line to me is JT3 and his staff immediately put their stamp on the program both on the court and off it and a lot of that momentum was fueled by how well players developed under them... True, but keep in mind that 2004 team with Esherick was really bad. While in retrospect we can see that JT3 had some building blocks, JT3 inherited on paper a team that was way worse than what Ewing inherited. The 2004 team had the 235th worst offense in the country! That's abysmal! And the team was ranked 124th, the lowest ever in the KenPom era. JT3 almost immediately turned around the players he inherited and made them substantially better players within a year: 2004 (Esherick): Offensive efficiency ratings: Bowman: 93.4 Cook: 88.7 Owens: 109.0 2005 (JT3): Offensive efficiency ratings: Bowman: 112.4 Cook: 102.3 Owens: 124.8 Obviously, this is only one stat, but JT3 made an enormous difference with these three guys, making them substantially better year-over-year. This, combined with Green, and a developing Hibbert (don't forget he was awful his first year under JT3) laid the groundwork for what became a really good team in a short period of time. That type of quick turnaround really isn't common. To his credit, Derrickson and Govan did improve in their first year under Ewing, but unfortunately we didn't have (and don't have) recruits of Green/Hibbert's caliber at the moment, though I think LeBlanc, Akinjo, and McClung all have a lot of potential.
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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Jan 11, 2019 12:05:54 GMT -5
Yes, JT3 walked into a better situation and achieved exponentially more with what he “was left” right out of the gate. I’m actually still shocked at JT3’s regression as a coach. I guess he put all his eggs in the basket of high-post trigger offense predicated on skill over athleticism and at the expense of recruiting high-end guards. That strategic choice killed him. The college game was, is and will always be guard-centric. Ironically, I think JT3 might be quite good as an NBA Coach. His system in college relied on accumulating 2/3 kinds of kids who were 6-9 with soft touch and handles - the best of those are top-15 recruits, not typically GU kids. Jeff Green and Otto P don’t fall into your lap every season. I still say that 2 occurances that were beyond III's control killed his GTown coaching career: 1.) Austin's diagnosis and 2.) Tyler's heart condition..... If Austin was health that's a final 4 team and maybe more considering the two teams that played for the championship that year. And can you imagine Otto's team with Tyler in the middle? We would have avoided FGCU by being #1 or #2 seed....That would be 3 deep tourney runs in less than 10yrs....I know these are hypotheticals but Austin's team was humming before he got sick and Otto's team hummed all year until FGCU.... You could throw in Wright's wrist too. That stuff happens though. His downfall was the Cameron, Domingo classes of '12 and '13. He almost pulled it off with the '14 class which was great on paper but then Isaac never developed, White got hurt, Campbell got hurt and never became what we wanted, and JTIII never evolved his game to fit his talent.
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hoyazeke
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Post by hoyazeke on Jan 11, 2019 12:06:53 GMT -5
I still say that 2 occurances that were beyond III's control killed his GTown coaching career: 1.) Austin's diagnosis and 2.) Tyler's heart condition..... If Austin was health that's a final 4 team and maybe more considering the two teams that played for the championship that year. And can you imagine Otto's team with Tyler in the middle? We would have avoided FGCU by being #1 or #2 seed....That would be 3 deep tourney runs in less than 10yrs....I know these are hypotheticals but Austin's team was humming before he got sick and Otto's team hummed all year until FGCU.... Chris Wright's broken hand did not help either. The 2011 squad was not as talented as 2010, 2012, or 2013. But we were playing really well when we got hurt, and could well have been a 3 seed. We ended up a 6 and drew VCU in their Final 4 run year. That team was a potential second weekend team with a healthy wright. Starks as a frosh was nowhere near ready to fill in for Wright, and we fell apart without him. Another sweet 16 team that year could certainly have helped extend JTIII's career. Yeah I forgot about the '11 team...we really had bad luck of drawing the under-seeded team that would go on to make a long run...Davidson, VCU, FGCU...The only one that didn't was Ohio and we weren't the same team with Austin learning to deal with diabetes..
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LCPolo18
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by LCPolo18 on Jan 11, 2019 12:09:54 GMT -5
Not talking about recruiting, all good there so far. When watching the Hoyas since Patrick’s arrival the networks ( Fox/CBS) have focused on him so much that it’s hard to visually get an idea of the coaching dynamic beyond him. Who is taking a player aside and getting in his ear? Or for that mater, who is getting in Patrick’s ear in game. I worry that the whole “Legendary” deal might be getting in his head to the extent that he puts it all on himself. I guess the head coach of a major program is always a dictator to some extent...... I don't know that I see much difference between how our assistants behave during games compared to previous Georgetown teams or compared to other college teams. Watching the games in person you can see that often when a starter is out of the game they will sit between the three assistants (plus Wallace and Leonard) and get some feedback/direction. It's extremely rare that a TV broadcast will focus on or mention an assistant coach unless there's a story about the coach to tell (Orr when we play Syracuse, etc.), so I don't think that should be your barometer. While I wasn't a frequent visitor to HoyaTalk at the time, I went to nearly every home game from 2001-2013 and barely knew who any of the assistants were during that time period.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Jan 11, 2019 12:13:47 GMT -5
I guess you could say JT3 walked into a better situation but he also started in a much tougher conference. Bottom line to me is JT3 and his staff immediately put their stamp on the program both on the court and off it and a lot of that momentum was fueled by how well players developed under them... True, but keep in mind that 2004 team with Esherick was really bad. While in retrospect we can see that JT3 had some building blocks, JT3 inherited on paper a team that was way worse than what Ewing inherited. The 2004 team had the 235th worst offense in the country! That's abysmal! And the team was ranked 124th, the lowest ever in the KenPom era. JT3 almost immediately turned around the players he inherited and made them substantially better players within a year: 2004 (Esherick): Offensive efficiency ratings: Bowman: 93.4 Cook: 88.7 Owens: 109.0 2005 (JT3): Offensive efficiency ratings: Bowman: 112.4 Cook: 102.3 Owens: 124.8 Obviously, this is only one stat, but JT3 made an enormous difference with these three guys, making them substantially better year-over-year. This, combined with Green, and a developing Hibbert (don't forget he was awful his first year under JT3) laid the groundwork for what became a really good team in a short period of time. That type of quick turnaround really isn't common. To his credit, Derrickson and Govan did improve in their first year under Ewing, but unfortunately we didn't have (and don't have) recruits of Green/Hibbert's caliber at the moment, though I think LeBlanc, Akinjo, and McClung all have a lot of potential. I disagree if you're only talking about coaching. Both Esh's and JT3's last teams were an emotional mess and it was all due to the head coaches (unless you're like Trump and the buck stops with everybody; btw that's sort of how JT3 treated the lopsided Tournament losses; he never took ownership). That has an effect on players and their stats. Once JT3 and Pat came in, a new dynamic led to better teams and better stats for individual players. The difference between the two coaches was the recruits coming in for Esh/JT3, JT3 convincing the Princeton-signed and future Hoya four-year starter Wallace to switch schools, and retaining slightly unhappy Bowman vs. the team implosion before Pat got here, just Walker coming in, and Pat with no college coaching experience having to go out and recruit starting in late season. Still, with that awful picture, Pat managed to get better production from his players. You cannot look at those numbers and say it was just coaching the players up. Emotional messes lead to worse stats and, in that case, change is good.
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SSHoya
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"Forget it Jake, it's Chinatown."
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Post by SSHoya on Jan 11, 2019 12:57:31 GMT -5
Not talking about recruiting, all good there so far. When watching the Hoyas since Patrick’s arrival the networks ( Fox/CBS) have focused on him so much that it’s hard to visually get an idea of the coaching dynamic beyond him. Who is taking a player aside and getting in his ear? Or for that mater, who is getting in Patrick’s ear in game. I worry that the whole “Legendary” deal might be getting in his head to the extent that he puts it all on himself. I guess the head coach of a major program is always a dictator to some extent...... I don't know that I see much difference between how our assistants behave during games compared to previous Georgetown teams or compared to other college teams. Watching the games in person you can see that often when a starter is out of the game they will sit between the three assistants (plus Wallace and Leonard) and get some feedback/direction. It's extremely rare that a TV broadcast will focus on or mention an assistant coach unless there's a story about the coach to tell (Orr when we play Syracuse, etc.), so I don't think that should be your barometer. While I wasn't a frequent visitor to HoyaTalk at the time, I went to nearly every home game from 2001-2013 and barely knew who any of the assistants were during that time period. One notable assistant and recruiter under Esherick: Chuck Driesell (2003-04), Lefty's son! That was the only reason it was remarkable.
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LCPolo18
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Post by LCPolo18 on Jan 11, 2019 13:00:34 GMT -5
I don't know that I see much difference between how our assistants behave during games compared to previous Georgetown teams or compared to other college teams. Watching the games in person you can see that often when a starter is out of the game they will sit between the three assistants (plus Wallace and Leonard) and get some feedback/direction. It's extremely rare that a TV broadcast will focus on or mention an assistant coach unless there's a story about the coach to tell (Orr when we play Syracuse, etc.), so I don't think that should be your barometer. While I wasn't a frequent visitor to HoyaTalk at the time, I went to nearly every home game from 2001-2013 and barely knew who any of the assistants were during that time period. One notable assistant and recruiter under Esherick: Chuck Driesell (2003-04), Lefty's son! That was the only reason it was remarkable. It's funny, I only knew Jaren Jackson from that coaching staff, and that was only because he spoke at the basketball banquet the year before.
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Jan 11, 2019 13:26:57 GMT -5
One notable assistant and recruiter under Esherick: Chuck Driesell (2003-04), Lefty's son! That was the only reason it was remarkable. It's funny, I only knew Jaren Jackson from that coaching staff, and that was only because he spoke at the basketball banquet the year before. I went to high school with Esherick and Lefty's children. Esh was a year behind me. Chuck was in my sister's class (Springbrook HS in Maryland). At that time (early 1970s), Lefty lived across the street from the school.
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Post by centercourt400s on Jan 11, 2019 13:32:32 GMT -5
I personally think that Ewing is getting just about all he can from his team. Let's face it, the roster's overall talent level is limited and experience is lacking. There are some really nice pieces but overall the talent level is nowhere near what a typical top 25 team and a conference contender would have.
There is one player who would start today on most top 25 teams: Govan.
There are a couple of players that would get a decent amount of situational time coming off the bench for a top 25 team: Akinjo, McClung, Leblanc, maybe Pickett.
Then you have some guys that would get limited bench minutes. As much as I like them, I think Malinowski, Blair and Mourning would fill that role on a top 25 team.
And again let me preface it by saying that I really like them and appreciate their efforts but Johnson and Mosley are end of the bench guys who would rarely see the court on a really good team.
Of the scholarship players, that just leaves Carter and considering the time he is getting on this team, I think he would be a end of the bench, project type guy for a top 25 squad, although one with an ok upside.
To really contend, to close out tough road games, to have realistic expectations of playing deep into March, the teams needs more talent.
This doesn't mean that they can't improve and even jell sufficiently and gain enough experience to be a threat in March and have a positive season. It just means that the road isn't going to be easy or straightforward this season.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 11, 2019 16:37:46 GMT -5
I disagree if you're only talking about coaching. Both Esh's and JT3's last teams were an emotional mess and it was all due to the head coaches (unless you're like Trump and the buck stops with everybody; btw that's sort of how JT3 treated the lopsided Tournament losses; he never took ownership). That has an effect on players and their stats. Once JT3 and Pat came in, a new dynamic led to better teams and better stats for individual players. The difference between the two coaches was the recruits coming in for Esh/JT3, JT3 convincing the Princeton-signed and future Hoya four-year starter Wallace to switch schools, and retaining slightly unhappy Bowman vs. the team implosion before Pat got here, just Walker coming in, and Pat with no college coaching experience having to go out and recruit starting in late season. Still, with that awful picture, Pat managed to get better production from his players. You cannot look at those numbers and say it was just coaching the players up. Emotional messes lead to worse stats and, in that case, change is good. As far as whether the last Esherick/JT3 teams were emotional messes, I really have no idea because I wasn't in the locker room. But, given the atmosphere around the program in both instances, it's easy to envision that it wasn't positive! I am not sure I agree with you re: stats, though I agree it certainly doesn't help. With regard to getting better production from players - I agree that certain players did better, like Govan and Derrickson, but the team performance did not (and has not) improved yet. In 2004, Georgetown was ranked 124 on KenPom, and JT3's first two seasons were 52, and then 13. So, there was clearly overall improvement. JT3's last season, we were ranked 69 (and 62 the year before), whereas Ewing's first year we took a step down to 94, and now we are ranked 96. To be fair, the JT3 type leap is very uncommon, as I have said before. It's very typical for a new coach's team to decline, given personnel changes, etc. That said, I don't think one can look at last year's team, or this one, and see "better production." I see potential for that to happen going forward, but so far it has not happened.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Jan 11, 2019 16:53:33 GMT -5
As far as whether the last Esherick/JT3 teams were emotional messes, I really have no idea because I wasn't in the locker room. But, given the atmosphere around the program in both instances, it's easy to envision that it wasn't positive! I am not sure I agree with you re: stats, though I agree it certainly doesn't help. With regard to getting better production from players - I agree that certain players did better, like Govan and Derrickson, but the team performance did not (and has not) improved yet. In 2004, Georgetown was ranked 124 on KenPom, and JT3's first two seasons were 52, and then 13. So, there was clearly overall improvement. JT3's last season, we were ranked 69 (and 62 the year before), whereas Ewing's first year we took a step down to 94, and now we are ranked 96. To be fair, the JT3 type leap is very uncommon, as I have said before. It's very typical for a new coach's team to decline, given personnel changes, etc. That said, I don't think one can look at last year's team, or this one, and see "better production." I see potential for that to happen going forward, but so far it has not happened. As I mentioned, JT3's first team was more talented than the year before for several factors. You're trying to make it sound as if it was coaching. Of course, JT3's first team was going to be better than Esh's last; it had more talent. But. I'll give you this: JT3 was better than two-fist Esh... but both of them liked to pass the buck.
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Bigs"R"Us
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on Jan 11, 2019 18:48:16 GMT -5
My favorite retort- “we’ll figure things out.” Never did.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 11, 2019 18:50:29 GMT -5
As I mentioned, JT3's first team was more talented than the year before for several factors. You're trying to make it sound as if it was coaching. Of course, JT3's first team was going to be better than Esh's last; it had more talent. But. I'll give you this: JT3 was better than two-fist Esh... but both of them liked to pass the buck. From a public relations standpoint, JT3 was terrible. Ewing is clearly better in that regard. I definitely think that JT3's comments following some of those losses (at least after it became a pattern) were off-putting, and I actually think he deprived himself of leeway and goodwill by failing to interact better with fans and the press, and by comments that were not seen by the fan-base as acknowledging the problems enough.
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Bigs"R"Us
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on Jan 11, 2019 18:58:12 GMT -5
That’s what happens when you hand over the keys to family. There’s an air of arrogance and the feeling of lifetime employment. Others around you resent your position and you lack the grit to succeed.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 11, 2019 23:05:42 GMT -5
That’s what happens when you hand over the keys to family. There’s an air of arrogance and the feeling of lifetime employment. Others around you resent your position and you lack the grit to succeed. And JT Jr. was certainly not an example to be emulated when it came to media, etc. That approach worked for John Thompson Jr. because of the era in which he coached. In the modern world, it doesn't work.
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Jan 12, 2019 0:48:46 GMT -5
Agreed. To me if a player has one coach in his college career then that coach should get all the credit(or blame) for the players development. If Walker had turned into a productive player @ Gtown the credit should have gone to the current staff only... I always thought that DaJuan Summers should have been in the league but I may have been fooled by his physique which suggested that he should have stuck. I think he lasted a couple of years with the Pistons, IIRC? DaJuan wanted to be a three and D guy. But he wasn't a good enough shooter or defender. He could have, considering his physique, adapted. But he didn't. In fairness, if he came along 5 years later, he'd have had a much better shot at the League.
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Jan 12, 2019 0:53:04 GMT -5
As I mentioned, JT3's first team was more talented than the year before for several factors. You're trying to make it sound as if it was coaching. Of course, JT3's first team was going to be better than Esh's last; it had more talent. But. I'll give you this: JT3 was better than two-fist Esh... but both of them liked to pass the buck. From a public relations standpoint, JT3 was terrible. Ewing is clearly better in that regard. I definitely think that JT3's comments following some of those losses (at least after it became a pattern) were off-putting, and I actually think he deprived himself of leeway and goodwill by failing to interact better with fans and the press, and by comments that were not seen by the fan-base as acknowledging the problems enough. I'd counter that he also wasn't consistently getting guaranteed NBA level recruits that probably needed some cover with regard to keeping confidence and the dream alive. Calipari, by contrast, throws his players under the bus regularly because the majority of them are NBA-bound anyway. A lot of these kids think they're making the League and, maybe, the thought was that, if you disparage them or blame them, their confidence will take a hit and they'll either bail or check out. I don't know. But I do know that I prefer a coach that gives canned answers or defaults to protecting his players as opposed to openly throwing all of the onus on them. I have to think there's a happy medium but I'm also not in any of those locker rooms. I feel like Patrick does a very good job in that regard.
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