hoopsmccan
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Post by hoopsmccan on Jan 10, 2019 16:27:34 GMT -5
I think you can argue the cupboard wasn't as bad as it appears today. IMHO, I think Ewing ran off some of the kids or didn't try to keep them. If you consider Derrickson wouldn't have been in such a hurry to leave. Actually, Govan wanted to leave and tested the NBA or any professional opportunity. Sodom and Walker were dismissed. Tremont Waters decided not to come onboard and he's a point guard that a lot of elite kids want to play with, he could have attracted additional talent for the cupboard. It's hard to know where to start with what's wrong with this post. hm
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 10, 2019 16:28:11 GMT -5
It's almost like the Xavier coaches scouted us and realized where we were weak. For some reason they chose to not start out in it but they realized what they need to do to win and effectively changed their entire game plan immediately. I wonder if our coaches realized we were playing the 260th ranked 3P shooting team, that ending up shooting 3 of 13, had a weakness that we should force them into. I get we were outmatched but Pat of anyone should've known how to scheme a way to take away the post. He was the recipient of it many times. He went 2-3 for a blip they made a contested 3 and he just seemingly gave up on it. We didn't double hard in the post, which we never do, and kind of just let them get the ball where they wanted to. Meanwhile they played far from what I would consider a tough 2-3 zone. How many times did we even do the basic task of getting the ball to the free throw line? It was all just frustrating to watch. The players are not to be exonerated as they made some questionable decisions, but as I mentioned in the game thread they sure didn't look prepared. Pat also all but gave up on Jamorko and Josh in the 2nd half when those are our 2 best defenders. I can only guess he was trying to outscore Xavier. We more so than most teams need stops to be able to score. Since when has a coach gotten fired and left a roster of sterling recruits/players? Unless it's one of the very top blue bloods, usually a coach is fired because a team performs poorly, and that's usually because the players aren't good. That surely happened in JT3's case, with a backcourt that really stunk and carried over into Ewing's first year. But, he also left behind two extremely solid players in Govan and Derrickson. Relatively speaking, for a coach who got fired for two sub .500 season, it's not actually all that bare. For what it's worth, even with the decrease in recruiting, JT3's last threes teams on KenPom (those whose rosters Ewing could have inherited) were 22, 69, and 67. So while those last two teams were pretty bad, they actually didn't perform has horribly as people like to remember - they were better than last year's team and this year's team (so far). (Last year we finished at 94, and this year so far we are at 96.) This is close to the point of being irrelevant anyway. The only non-Ewing recruit on the roster next year will be Mosely, so it will fully be Ewing's team after next year, though I completely agree you need to give him at least 3-4 years to build a roster/team like he wants it to be. LeBlanc, Akinjo, and McClung were a nice group this year. Hopefully the weak start to the 2019 class can recover in the spring and transfer/decommit market.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Jan 10, 2019 16:31:52 GMT -5
I think you can argue the cupboard wasn't as bad as it appears today. IMHO, I think Ewing ran off some of the kids or didn't try to keep them. If you consider Derrickson wouldn't have been in such a hurry to leave. Actually, Govan wanted to leave and tested the NBA or any professional opportunity. Sodom and Walker were dismissed. Tremont Waters decided not to come onboard and he's a point guard that a lot of elite kids want to play with, he could have attracted additional talent for the cupboard. Who did he run off other than Sodom (altercation) and Walker (who knows)? Actually, Ewing kept players when he came in, including Derrickson and Trey. Although we would've wanted one more year of Marcus, he is an elite (NBA caliber) 3-pt shooter and I respect his decision to leave. Govan testing NBA? A lot of elite juniors do and Ewing helped him to explore. As for Tremont, Ewing tried to get him to stay. Didn't he visit Tremont's home right after accepting the hc position? Tremont thought he could get the open PG position at Duke, but on May 15, 2017 Duke went with first-choice Duval in his position. On June 5th, Tremont signed with LSU.
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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Jan 10, 2019 16:37:48 GMT -5
REmember JTIII's first class. It was patchwork just like Ewing's. It included Josh "the dagger" Thorton, Marc Egerson, Octavius Spann, and Jessie Sapp. Only Sapp stayed four years. I think that is comparable to Blair, Pickett, Walker & Sodom. Hopefully Blair & Pickett both contribute for four years.
Year 2 after III had on-court success, we got Summers, Macklin & Rivers. Ewing's class of Akinjo, McClung, Leblanc & Carter could certainly be better after their careers are over than JTIII had in his second class. III also was lucky to get Green & Hibbert and bring along Wallace. Green & Hibbert were both mid-100 (140 to 160 range) recruits that got a lot of time early and played way above their rankings. While Ewing inherited Jessie & Marcus, that was essentially it in terms of starters and that was a one year and two year starter respectively versus the three to four years you got out of Green & Hibbert.
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iowa80
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Post by iowa80 on Jan 10, 2019 16:43:34 GMT -5
After having this same discussion elsewhere last night, I've decided that I may have a warped view of what "the cupboard was bare" means. To me "bare" means, no useful talent...none ...zip...nada. It doesn't mean a budding NBA player or a fine offensive center. How about "Pat didn't have a lot to work with."
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 10, 2019 16:49:05 GMT -5
I think you can argue the cupboard wasn't as bad as it appears today. IMHO, I think Ewing ran off some of the kids or didn't try to keep them. If you consider Derrickson wouldn't have been in such a hurry to leave. Actually, Govan wanted to leave and tested the NBA or any professional opportunity. Sodom and Walker were dismissed. Tremont Waters decided not to come onboard and he's a point guard that a lot of elite kids want to play with, he could have attracted additional talent for the cupboard. Who did he run off other than Sodom (altercation) and Walker (who knows)? Actually, Ewing kept players when he came in, including Derrickson and Trey. Although we would've wanted one more year of Marcus, he is an elite (NBA caliber) 3-pt shooter and I respect his decision to leave. Govan testing NBA? A lot of elite juniors do and Ewing helped him to explore. As for Tremont, Ewing tried to get him to stay. Didn't he visit Tremont's home right after accepting the hc position? Tremont thought he could get the open PG position at Duke, but on May 15, 2017 Duke went with first-choice Duval in his position. On June 5th, Tremont signed with LSU. For a coaching change, the roster was actually quite stable. The only players that dropped off the roster were Agau and Campbell (who was injured anyway). I don't count Peak since it seems likely he would have left anyway. I am not saying Ewing inherited a supremely talented roster (though Derrickson and Govan were good players to have on a first-year roster), but it's not like Jeff Capel at Pittsburgh (or even Mullin at St. John's), or a similar situation where even fielding 5 scholarship players from the old roster is a challenge. And, that does happen. So, I do think it's a testament to Ewing that he kept the band together, so to speak.
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Post by bereal on Jan 10, 2019 17:18:40 GMT -5
I think you can argue the cupboard wasn't as bad as it appears today. IMHO, I think Ewing ran off some of the kids or didn't try to keep them. If you consider Derrickson wouldn't have been in such a hurry to leave. Actually, Govan wanted to leave and tested the NBA or any professional opportunity. Sodom and Walker were dismissed. Tremont Waters decided not to come onboard and he's a point guard that a lot of elite kids want to play with, he could have attracted additional talent for the cupboard. Who did he run off other than Sodom (altercation) and Walker (who knows)? Actually, Ewing kept players when he came in, including Derrickson and Trey. Although we would've wanted one more year of Marcus, he is an elite (NBA caliber) 3-pt shooter and I respect his decision to leave. Govan testing NBA? A lot of elite juniors do and Ewing helped him to explore. As for Tremont, Ewing tried to get him to stay. Didn't he visit Tremont's home right after accepting the hc position? Tremont thought he could get the open PG position at Duke, but on May 15, 2017 Duke went with first-choice Duval in his position. On June 5th, Tremont signed with LSU. Walker would have been a help against the bully ball we witnessed last night, he was dismissed, not a Ewing recruit. Maybe we keep him until we can recruit over him. Derrickson felt it was time to move on, not a Ewing recruit, cupboard wasn't bare with an NBA player in the cupboard. Govan should have a professional opportunity, not a Ewing recruit, cupboard wasn't bare. Tremont agreed to come until the coach changed, not a Ewing recruit, cupboard wasn't going to be bare. If everyone is correct and it will take Ewing at least 4 years to rebuild as we wait for coach and player to gain experience, why would Tremont or a high level recruit want to spend their college years at the Hilltop? They want to go to the dance and soon.
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thedragon
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Post by thedragon on Jan 10, 2019 17:20:36 GMT -5
Who did he run off other than Sodom (altercation) and Walker (who knows)? Actually, Ewing kept players when he came in, including Derrickson and Trey. Although we would've wanted one more year of Marcus, he is an elite (NBA caliber) 3-pt shooter and I respect his decision to leave. Govan testing NBA? A lot of elite juniors do and Ewing helped him to explore. As for Tremont, Ewing tried to get him to stay. Didn't he visit Tremont's home right after accepting the hc position? Tremont thought he could get the open PG position at Duke, but on May 15, 2017 Duke went with first-choice Duval in his position. On June 5th, Tremont signed with LSU. Walker would have been a help against the bully ball we witnessed last night, he was dismissed, not a Ewing recruit. Maybe we keep him until we can recruit over him. Derrickson felt it was time to move on, not a Ewing recruit, cupboard wasn't bare with an NBA player in the cupboard. Govan should have a professional opportunity, not a Ewing recruit, cupboard wasn't bare. Tremont agreed to come until the coach changed, not a Ewing recruit, cupboard wasn't going to be bare. If everyone is correct and it will take Ewing at least 4 years to rebuild as we wait for coach and player to gain experience, why would Tremont or a high level recruit want to spend their college years at the Hilltop? They want to go to the dance and soon. Tremont left BEFORE JT3 was fired. This revisionist history is nonsense.
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Post by bereal on Jan 10, 2019 17:26:36 GMT -5
Walker would have been a help against the bully ball we witnessed last night, he was dismissed, not a Ewing recruit. Maybe we keep him until we can recruit over him. Derrickson felt it was time to move on, not a Ewing recruit, cupboard wasn't bare with an NBA player in the cupboard. Govan should have a professional opportunity, not a Ewing recruit, cupboard wasn't bare. Tremont agreed to come until the coach changed, not a Ewing recruit, cupboard wasn't going to be bare. If everyone is correct and it will take Ewing at least 4 years to rebuild as we wait for coach and player to gain experience, why would Tremont or a high level recruit want to spend their college years at the Hilltop? They want to go to the dance and soon. Tremont left BEFORE JT3 was fired. This revisionist history is nonsense. We didn't know of the firing? ? Everyone knew we were getting a new coach
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Post by bereal on Jan 10, 2019 17:32:01 GMT -5
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thedragon
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Post by thedragon on Jan 10, 2019 17:53:22 GMT -5
Your articles prove my point. Tremont article asking out...March 11 JT3 fired article...March 23rd.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 10, 2019 17:56:02 GMT -5
Your articles prove my point. Tremont article asking out...March 11 JT3 fired article...March 23rd. Yes, while things looked very bad for JT3, Tremont decommitted first (sadly, I remember exactly where I was when I read the news). I actually think that's what spurred action. Had Waters stayed (despite the obvious displeasure among fans and alumni), I think there is a very good likelihood JT3 would have gotten another year. I am not sure why people feel a need to make things up to make a point. Further, yes, Ewing dismissed Walker, but presumably it was for a significant reason. People don't get tossed off basketball teams for no reason. And, it's not like JT3 didn't do the same thing. He tossed Whittington, and made Josh Smith sit for academic reasons. So, in all likelihood, whatever Walker did would have resulted in the same outcome even if JT3 had been the coach. I think there are fair criticisms that can be made of Ewing's coaching, but I think this argument about player retention is nonsense.
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Bigs"R"Us
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on Jan 10, 2019 18:07:17 GMT -5
The mass exodus is part of why we have a new coach. Of course the cupboard was bare. Pat had no real shot at Tremont after the check from LSU cleared.
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kettlehill
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Post by kettlehill on Jan 10, 2019 18:13:17 GMT -5
Apologies for changing the subject from the Tremont Waters soap opera ( personally, long term, I’ll take James) but I have a question re Patrick’s coaching. I am a big fan of Pat- always have been- and I love his players ( e.g. Akingo, MAC, Josh, Malinowski, and don’t shoot the deep three first time you touch the ball Carter). My question is: does he have a talented enough support staff ( asst. coaches)? It looks to me like the players like and respect their head coach, but he is a first time college coach. He needs help. In the opinion of those reading this: does he have it?
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Post by bereal on Jan 10, 2019 18:20:17 GMT -5
Your articles prove my point. Tremont article asking out...March 11 JT3 fired article...March 23rd. Clearly you didn't read the article on his asking out "Instead, the Hoyas finished 14-18 including a 5-13 record in Big East games. Factor in Georgetown closed the year with six straight losses and missed the NCAA Tournament for the third time in four years. All of that led to intense discussion, local and national, about the future of long-time head coach John Thompson III." 2 weeks later JT3 was officially let go.
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Post by bereal on Jan 10, 2019 18:22:24 GMT -5
After having this same discussion elsewhere last night, I've decided that I may have a warped view of what "the cupboard was bare" means. To me "bare" means, no useful talent...none ...zip...nada. It doesn't mean a budding NBA player or a fine offensive center. How about "Pat didn't have a lot to work with." I agree with you definition of bare, there was some useful talent, maybe not many, but some.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Jan 10, 2019 18:35:17 GMT -5
Who did he run off other than Sodom (altercation) and Walker (who knows)? Actually, Ewing kept players when he came in, including Derrickson and Trey. Although we would've wanted one more year of Marcus, he is an elite (NBA caliber) 3-pt shooter and I respect his decision to leave. Govan testing NBA? A lot of elite juniors do and Ewing helped him to explore. As for Tremont, Ewing tried to get him to stay. Didn't he visit Tremont's home right after accepting the hc position? Tremont thought he could get the open PG position at Duke, but on May 15, 2017 Duke went with first-choice Duval in his position. On June 5th, Tremont signed with LSU. Walker would have been a help against the bully ball we witnessed last night, he was dismissed, not a Ewing recruit. Maybe we keep him until we can recruit over him. Derrickson felt it was time to move on, not a Ewing recruit, cupboard wasn't bare with an NBA player in the cupboard. Govan should have a professional opportunity, not a Ewing recruit, cupboard wasn't bare. Tremont agreed to come until the coach changed, not a Ewing recruit, cupboard wasn't going to be bare. If everyone is correct and it will take Ewing at least 4 years to rebuild as we wait for coach and player to gain experience, why would Tremont or a high level recruit want to spend their college years at the Hilltop? They want to go to the dance and soon. While we don't know the exact reason, I think it is crystal clear that Walker was dismissed for some significant issue - so you don't "keep him until you can recruit over him". You make it clear - as with Sodom - that you follow the rules or you go elsewhere. And although there were hopes for him, he was far from an established contributor. True the cupboard was not bare, we had a couple of very good players - but arguably they did not fit the type of style Patrick wants to play, he made adjustments for them.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Jan 10, 2019 20:02:12 GMT -5
One of the key thngs Xavier's coach and players cited (over and above the 2-3 zone) was playing their 2 big guys together; and Ewing said they weren't ready for that look (apparently X had not done it yet this year, having not watched any of their games I have no idea if it is true). On the surface it sounds like it didn't occur as something to prepare for pregame, which could be true, but that answer could also reflect that with Mourning injured there isn't a second option. I love LeBlanc, but he's gonna have a hard time keeping the X rec league center away from the rim and we only saw Carter for 2 minutes but it's clear he could not either. Not saying Mourning is an elite defender but he is the only current other option. One thing I wish people would stop is saying that Xavier was using a "rec league center." Hankens deserves more respect than that and so does the Xavier coaching staff. Give them credit for having found someone who will be a valuable player in this conference. I had seen Xavier play before and Hankens impressed me then. Jones also played well. The announcer clearly knew Xavier well and he talked alot about how this was the first game with both of them on the floor, and it worked. Sometimes, you just have to tip your cap. [TBH I have always regarded a major flaw in scouting basketball talent that players, specifically bigs, have to prove themselves in high school at a time when they are just adjusting to their bodies. The fact that he started in D2 is kind of irrelevant to me. Would it have been more productive that he redshirted somewhere first? Anyway, I kind of expect the majority of them to be slow to develop.] I'm not necessarily using the term 'rec league center' in a derogatory way, guys like that remind me of the guys I used to play pickup with in McDonough and Yates. It's more that the guy looks like he is a stiff but then you see him play and he has better footwork than your would be all American.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Jan 10, 2019 20:04:09 GMT -5
One of the key thngs Xavier's coach and players cited (over and above the 2-3 zone) was playing their 2 big guys together; and Ewing said they weren't ready for that look (apparently X had not done it yet this year, having not watched any of their games I have no idea if it is true). On the surface it sounds like it didn't occur as something to prepare for pregame, which could be true, but that answer could also reflect that with Mourning injured there isn't a second option. I love LeBlanc, but he's gonna have a hard time keeping the X rec league center away from the rim and we only saw Carter for 2 minutes but it's clear he could not either. Not saying Mourning is an elite defender but he is the only current other option. Sorry. I think you have given up on Carter too soon! For whatever reason, he has played the least of all of our freshmen. He demonstrates good fundamentals but hasn't found his rhythm yet. He's the closest to a center that we have. I would recommend that we keep going to him in spurts and allow him to shoot, until he finds his rhythm. He will help us in the long run. I haven't given up on any of them. I was talking about his ability as a back up defensive center. AT THIS POINT IN TIME, Carter needs a year in the weight room to even approach being able to body big centers off the block. That was my only point.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Jan 10, 2019 20:08:17 GMT -5
REmember JTIII's first class. It was patchwork just like Ewing's. It included Josh "the dagger" Thorton, Marc Egerson, Octavius Spann, and Jessie Sapp. Only Sapp stayed four years. I think that is comparable to Blair, Pickett, Walker & Sodom. Hopefully Blair & Pickett both contribute for four years. Year 2 after III had on-court success, we got Summers, Macklin & Rivers. Ewing's class of Akinjo, McClung, Leblanc & Carter could certainly be better after their careers are over than JTIII had in his second class. III also was lucky to get Green & Hibbert and bring along Wallace. Green & Hibbert were both mid-100 (140 to 160 range) recruits that got a lot of time early and played way above their rankings. While Ewing inherited Jessie & Marcus, that was essentially it in terms of starters and that was a one year and two year starter respectively versus the three to four years you got out of Green & Hibbert. Technically, JT3's 1st class was Green, Hibbert, Guibunda & Wallace of that group only Green came in with any fan fair... His 2nd class was the Thornton, Egerson, Spann & Sapp crew... Also, Gtown landed Summers, Macklin & Rivers before the 2005-06 season began so it was their performance in year one that helped land Summers, mack & Rivers not the sweet 16 run... The truth is in one offseason JT3 & staff molded a core of Bowman, Cook, Owens, Green & Wallace into a pretty solid group, I think it's fair to say that Hoya fans knew that he was onto something almost right away.
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