blueandgray
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Post by blueandgray on Dec 31, 2017 8:23:29 GMT -5
Having not watched the game and only reading this thread, it sounds like it was one of the more painful games to watch. The turnovers would have driven me crazy. Having just looked at the box score however ...there were a few positives that jumped out.
(1) Derrickson played well and seems to be emerging as our best player.
(2) Govan gets 12 boards. That never happens a years ago...nice to see him continue to have success here in conference play.
(3) Kaleb showed up and seemed to have a solid game.
(4) We covered the spread!
We clearly have a problem at the guard spot, recruiting can fix that.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2017 9:10:46 GMT -5
tbh given the rebuild going on, I’d be ok with 20 turnovers ... if they were made on skip passes, looking diagonally on the press, etc. Fundamentally good plays as opposed to careless throwaways or travels.
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HoyaFanNY
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Post by HoyaFanNY on Dec 31, 2017 11:26:13 GMT -5
you have to wonder is the up tempo nba style of offense is a good idea with the lack of talent in the backcourt. the team always looks rushed on offense. i'd almost opt for grind it out rock fights given the composition of the roster. Remember, we are trying to get guys to come to Georgetown. good point. i'm all for an up tempo offense too but watching mulmore and dickerson is downright painful. hopefully pat gives jagan more minutes with kaleb and blair.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Dec 31, 2017 11:38:55 GMT -5
Just got back from the Bradley Center. Thankfully, only a handful of Hoya fans had to shield their eyes in the stadium every time Mulmore and Dickerson touched the ball. I sifted through about half of the pages, but most of the comments were dead on. We are beyond getting subpar play from the PG position, we are literally getting nothing. Mulmore/Dickerson combined for 31 minutes, 0 FGs, 0 ASTS, 8 TOs, 4 fouls and nothing that could be considered acceptable defense in this one. Some credit to Ewing for actually going with the no PG-lineup for the first time I can remember this year, but it was far too late and for not long enough. Put me squarely in the camp that believes all the minutes should be going to Mosely and Blair (and Walker when we need to go big); at least those are guys that you can at least see potentially developing in the years to come. It sucks that one of them will have to play out of position this year, but whoever does has to do so for the good of the team. Our PGs actually had me wishing for Drew Hall and Matt Causey; that should tell you all you need to know. It's time to shorten the rotation by 1-2; if guys complain about getting worn down from too many minutes, so be it. It also seemed like Pat tried a little zone today unlike in the Butler game, but unfortunately Marquette had some credible outside shooting and may have scared him from using it more than he would've liked. So I do give him more of a pass for at least trying to adjust in this one. Even with Rousey catching fire, the game was still there for the taking if we didn't shoot ourselves repeatedly in the foot with careless unforced turnovers. It'd be one thing if Marquette was playing exceptional defense... but they weren't. FWIW, I still think we need to be playing more zone than we should. There isn't a guy on the team that I would consider an above average 1-on-1 on the ball defender either on the perimeter or in the post, so we have to limit exposing any of them as much as possible. In other words, it's time for Louis Orr to start earning those paychecks. Jessie did seem to have an off day today, but honestly if his off day is 11 and 12, then he's come a long way. And he has. A lot of credit goes to Marquette for doubling both Jessie and Marcus the second they put the ball on the floor. Taking away one thing the opponent likes to do is something competent teams can accomplish, and we aren't there yet from both a personnel or coaching standpoint. I don't think anyone came into today thinking a 9 point loss on the road at a place where we never seem to win would be surprising. But what irks all of us is how we lost it. 46 turnovers in 2 conference games... we keep that up and going 5-13 will seem like a pipe dream pretty soon. Solid analysis. Regarding the bolded sentence, my daughter is playing defense instead of center on her HS hockey team her senior year for exactly the same reason.
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njhoya78
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Post by njhoya78 on Dec 31, 2017 12:54:42 GMT -5
Plus/minus for yesterday's game, as calculated from the play-by-play posted at guhoyas.com:
Johnson +3, Derrickson +2, Mulmore even, Pickett -1, Blair -7, Walker -8, Mosely -9, Dickerson -10, Govan -15, Hines DNP/coach's decision, Muresan DNP/coach's decision.
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calhoya
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Post by calhoya on Dec 31, 2017 13:19:57 GMT -5
Still not ready to give upon Mulmore or Dickerson, but hoping that the are playing with a much, much shorter leash. They are turnover machines right now, but then again who has not been. Pickett (36), MD (31), Mulmore (31), Govan (24) and Kaleb (17) to look at just starters. I see the problem as each of them trying to force the drive into the lane when there is nothing available and when the try to push the pace without seeing the court. It has led to careless and needless turnovers. When that occurs, Ewing needs to bench them immediately for a few minutes and make them focus on the mistake. As for my favorite, Mosley (20), he has been guilty of many careless or unfocused turnovers as well--yesterday featured a careless flip pass to the other team. Blair (19) is learning and deserves more time but also a turnover machine with much less playing time. My point is that there are no good choices here so calls to banish Mulmore or Dickerson to the end of the bench are not realistic. Ewing needs to just go with what is working --or at least not failing-- during each game.
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s4hoyas
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Post by s4hoyas on Dec 31, 2017 14:43:14 GMT -5
The answer is not necessarily benching...its teaching/coaching...here's a thought...instead of Mulmore/Dickerson racing all the way to the hoop and then throwing it up and missing or otherwise turning it over, how about having our two best 3 pt shooters (Derrickson, Govan) trailing on the wings and getting passes from, say, the foul line and taking threes...much better scoring opportunities in some instances...
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Dec 31, 2017 14:44:36 GMT -5
tbh given the rebuild going on, I’d be ok with 20 turnovers ... if they were made on skip passes, looking diagonally on the press, etc. Fundamentally good plays as opposed to careless throwaways or travels. Exactly. Too many lazy passes, offensive fouls. Have to play smarter when there is no margin for error.
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Post by michaelgrahmstylie on Dec 31, 2017 14:48:43 GMT -5
Just got back from the Bradley Center. Thankfully, only a handful of Hoya fans had to shield their eyes in the stadium every time Mulmore and Dickerson touched the ball. I sifted through about half of the pages, but most of the comments were dead on. We are beyond getting subpar play from the PG position, we are literally getting nothing. Mulmore/Dickerson combined for 31 minutes, 0 FGs, 0 ASTS, 8 TOs, 4 fouls and nothing that could be considered acceptable defense in this one. Some credit to Ewing for actually going with the no PG-lineup for the first time I can remember this year, but it was far too late and for not long enough. Put me squarely in the camp that believes all the minutes should be going to Mosely and Blair (and Walker when we need to go big); at least those are guys that you can at least see potentially developing in the years to come. It sucks that one of them will have to play out of position this year, but whoever does has to do so for the good of the team. Our PGs actually had me wishing for Drew Hall and Matt Causey; that should tell you all you need to know. It's time to shorten the rotation by 1-2; if guys complain about getting worn down from too many minutes, so be it. It also seemed like Pat tried a little zone today unlike in the Butler game, but unfortunately Marquette had some credible outside shooting and may have scared him from using it more than he would've liked. So I do give him more of a pass for at least trying to adjust in this one. Even with Rousey catching fire, the game was still there for the taking if we didn't shoot ourselves repeatedly in the foot with careless unforced turnovers. It'd be one thing if Marquette was playing exceptional defense... but they weren't. FWIW, I still think we need to be playing more zone than we should. There isn't a guy on the team that I would consider an above average 1-on-1 on the ball defender either on the perimeter or in the post, so we have to limit exposing any of them as much as possible. In other words, it's time for Louis Orr to start earning those paychecks. Jessie did seem to have an off day today, but honestly if his off day is 11 and 12, then he's come a long way. And he has. A lot of credit goes to Marquette for doubling both Jessie and Marcus the second they put the ball on the floor. Taking away one thing the opponent likes to do is something competent teams can accomplish, and we aren't there yet from both a personnel or coaching standpoint. I don't think anyone came into today thinking a 9 point loss on the road at a place where we never seem to win would be surprising. But what irks all of us is how we lost it. 46 turnovers in 2 conference games... we keep that up and going 5-13 will seem like a pipe dream pretty soon. Solid analysis. Regarding the bolded sentence, my daughter is playing defense instead of center on her HS hockey team her senior year for exactly the same reason. Solid analysis, true. But, oh man, how the truth hurts.
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Post by jld54 on Dec 31, 2017 14:56:15 GMT -5
It is amazing that two senior PGs do not score in 31 minutes, have 8 TOs and no assists, and we only lose by 9 at a tough place to play. And when you add that Rousey torched our guards for 35, it is even more amazing.
It will be a long season and unless there is major improvement in the backcourt we are looking at 4 or fewer BE wins. The good news is that the team did not give up and hung in until the end. Hopefully our core stays intact and healthy next year and we get more backcourt help with McClung and Malinowski next year.
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njhoya78
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Post by njhoya78 on Dec 31, 2017 15:00:44 GMT -5
you have to wonder is the up tempo nba style of offense is a good idea with the lack of talent in the backcourt. the team always looks rushed on offense. i'd almost opt for grind it out rock fights given the composition of the roster. Grind-it-out rock fights were what we saw the last few years under JT3. We will never be able to recruit any talent if we revert to that style of play.
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drquigley
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Post by drquigley on Dec 31, 2017 15:04:56 GMT -5
I wonder if PE has considered moving Kaleb to pg? Obviously, in the best of all worlds we wouldn't even consider this but our guards are so bad I don't think Kaleb could do worse. He has a good handle, can shoot 3's, sees the court well, can run, and doesn't turn the ball over. Desperate times call for desperate measures.
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bigskyhoya
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Post by bigskyhoya on Dec 31, 2017 17:07:54 GMT -5
All the options are bad, but I would rather see Jagan than Kaleb at PG. Kaleb's handle is ok, not good enough.
Why can't we recruit just one of these smallish guards that torch us every year?
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Post by RockawayHoya on Dec 31, 2017 18:26:58 GMT -5
Turnovers haven't been the only part of story with Dickerson and Mulmore. Those careless drives have also resulted in haphazard misses that have jumpstarted opponent fast breaks. They go down as just a FG miss in the stat sheet but it may as well be a turnover and transition points tacked on. For the ones that end in a stupid charge (and there have been many), tack on 2 FTs that the opponent wouldn't have gotten in the bonus.
Ewing has done a great job of instilling confidence in perimeter shooters. Remember when we used to all get super frustrated by all the shot clock violations and decent looks being passed up? I don't miss those days at all, and I certainly don't mind the aggressive mindset by a lot of guys on the team. But what are we hoping for in terms of improvement out of Mulmore and Dickerson? Even if the light finally turns on for either guy by late February / early March, the long-term benefit to this team won't be realized because they'll both be gone. And it certainly won't be a greater benefit than using those minutes to develop the young guys who will be here and have much higher ceilings to potentially reach. I can let freshmen make mistakes; I can't keep allowing a 5th year grad transfer and a 4th year JUCO transfer to make those same mistakes. They've had their chance to develop some semblance of basketball IQ and they haven't.
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kettlehill
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Post by kettlehill on Dec 31, 2017 18:45:48 GMT -5
I would not mind seeing a starting backcourt of Mosely and Kaleb, with Mulmore off the bench or when we are pressed
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Dec 31, 2017 19:16:30 GMT -5
Lots has been said, but I wanted to comment on the issue of Mulmore and Dickerosn. I wrote a longer post and lost it, so I'll sum it up - which some people will no doubt like more anyway.
In summary, Mulmore is a much better and more efficient player than Dickerson. Mulmore's shooting - which is limited from his not taking many shots - is pretty good (52.8% on twos, 43.8% on threes). He also gets to the foul line a lot (his free throw rate is currently ranked 4th in the nation, though the MEAC/SWAC games surely inflated this), and makes his free throws at a pretty high rate (75.5%). He also gets a fair amount of assists. This yields a pretty good efficiency of 110.6% (though only 68 in Big East play).
Dickerson really struggles in nearly every area. His shooting from three is poor (14.3), though not bad from two (50%). He also does not get to the line very much, and he fouls a LOT. His offensive efficiency is 85.5 (only 43.6 in Big east play).
Neither of them are very good on defense, and they both turn it over a LOT. But Mulmore doesn't foul as much and doesn't get constant offensive fouls for driving into traffic aimlessly.
I tend to agree with those who would advocate a bigger lineup, featuring more of Mosely/Blair, with more time for Kaleb and Walker getting more minutes. Mosely/Blair also have additional years with us, so I think getting them experience is helpful (plus they are better than Dickerson, without a doubt).
I like Dickerson's attitude on social media, and by all means he seems to have a good attitude, so I appreciate his being a part of the team, but if the goal is winning and/or developing our younger players, his minutes should be limited.
[As an side, our offense has been absolutely terrible in the two Big East games thus far - even Govan's offensive efficiency has been poor. Really, only Marcus Derrickson and Mosely have been good. It's only two games so I don't put much emphasis on the Big East-only numbers, but it demonstrates that even after the Butler game, our offense is not in good shape.]
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Post by upstatesaxa on Jan 1, 2018 11:29:11 GMT -5
All the options are bad, but I would rather see Jagan than Kaleb at PG. Kaleb's handle is ok, not good enough. Why can't we recruit just one of these smallish guards that torch us every year? You'd think that this would be the easiest commodity (5'9"-6'2") to find in the world of basketball
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Post by glidehoyas (Inactive) on Jan 2, 2018 8:16:34 GMT -5
Having not watched the game and only reading this thread, it sounds like it was one of the more painful games to watch. The turnovers would have driven me crazy. Having just looked at the box score however ...there were a few positives that jumped out. (1) Derrickson played well and seems to be emerging as our best player. (2) Govan gets 12 boards. That never happens a years ago...nice to see him continue to have success here in conference play. (3) Kaleb showed up and seemed to have a solid game. (4) We covered the spread! We clearly have a problem at the guard spot, recruiting can fix that. 4. This has been the case in the last 4 to 5 years.
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Post by glidehoyas (Inactive) on Jan 2, 2018 8:20:23 GMT -5
Lots has been said, but I wanted to comment on the issue of Mulmore and Dickerosn. I wrote a longer post and lost it, so I'll sum it up - which some people will no doubt like more anyway. In summary, Mulmore is a much better and more efficient player than Dickerson. Mulmore's shooting - which is limited from his not taking many shots - is pretty good (52.8% on twos, 43.8% on threes). He also gets to the foul line a lot (his free throw rate is currently ranked 4th in the nation, though the MEAC/SWAC games surely inflated this), and makes his free throws at a pretty high rate (75.5%). He also gets a fair amount of assists. This yields a pretty good efficiency of 110.6% (though only 68 in Big East play). Dickerson really struggles in nearly every area. His shooting from three is poor (14.3), though not bad from two (50%). He also does not get to the line very much, and he fouls a LOT. His offensive efficiency is 85.5 (only 43.6 in Big east play). Neither of them are very good on defense, and they both turn it over a LOT. But Mulmore doesn't foul as much and doesn't get constant offensive fouls for driving into traffic aimlessly. I tend to agree with those who would advocate a bigger lineup, featuring more of Mosely/Blair, with more time for Kaleb and Walker getting more minutes. Mosely/Blair also have additional years with us, so I think getting them experience is helpful (plus they are better than Dickerson, without a doubt). I like Dickerson's attitude on social media, and by all means he seems to have a good attitude, so I appreciate his being a part of the team, but if the goal is winning and/or developing our younger players, his minutes should be limited. [As an side, our offense has been absolutely terrible in the two Big East games thus far - even Govan's offensive efficiency has been poor. Really, only Marcus Derrickson and Mosely have been good. It's only two games so I don't put much emphasis on the Big East-only numbers, but it demonstrates that even after the Butler game, our offense is not in good shape.] Mulmore doesn't have heart forget the stats. He's lucky he get to the foul line, but you have to make your free throws during crunch time. smh ...Not enough assists especially when you're turning the ball over! Dickerson does control the tempo of a game, but tries to do too much at times. If you play Mosely, Dickerson and Blair together good things happen, but we haven't seen too much of this since the so called cup cake games.
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Post by glidehoyas (Inactive) on Jan 2, 2018 8:23:23 GMT -5
All the options are bad, but I would rather see Jagan than Kaleb at PG. Kaleb's handle is ok, not good enough. Why can't we recruit just one of these smallish guards that torch us every year? You'd think that this would be the easiest commodity (5'9"-6'2") to find in the world of basketball Because we didn't know what one looked like and is suppose to do. We were too worried about numbers instead of leadership, control and good decision making especially during crunch time. We recruited some of the smaller guards but let them get away is why you need a bonafide point guard coach.
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