EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Jan 8, 2020 12:17:52 GMT -5
100% agree. Given there has been no changes to the staff, you would think closing on 3 year we would have cultivated some relationships that give us more access to prospects. Instead, I see the staff flying all over the country dropping in on kids and giving them an offer late in the process. In my opinion, Ewing has to make changes this offseason to the coaching staff. Too much falls on him, and I am not saying Ewing is not to blame. He appears to very much enjoy being in control. But he has to realize that the current strategy is not effective. It actually may be too late in his tenure now, but he has got to try. I think if we had a normal athletic department, it probably would be too late. We're a few more losses away from missing the NCAAs three years in a row, with a much worse roster returning next season. Not many coaches would be able to survive 4 straight non-NCAA Tournament seasons, with the core of his top recruiting class having bailed on the program. But this is Georgetown, the coach is Patrick Ewing and John Thompson II is still alive. My guess is Ewing will get at least 5 seasons to make the NCAAs, assuming he wants to stay that long. Given this, I think Ewing's best bet is to ditch one, possibly two of his assistants as soon as the season is over. And he needs to replace them with at least one, ideally two highly connected recruiters - people with close ties to a top tier prep school program and/or a top tier AAU program. Those new assistants need to bring in 1 or more highly sought after recruits immediately. DePaul did this with the young coach from La Lumiere a few years ago - guy was certainly shady, but he brought several recruits with him and may have saved Leitao's job in the process. Orr and Waheed have brought very little to the table from a recruiting perspective - those guys should both be on the chopping block, in my opinion (Waheed especially, whose DC roots have generated measly recruiting results). Kirby hasn't exactly been lighting it up either, to me he gets way too big a pass on the board...
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hoyaboya
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Post by hoyaboya on Jan 8, 2020 12:22:18 GMT -5
I think if we had a normal athletic department, it probably would be too late. We're a few more losses away from missing the NCAAs three years in a row, with a much worse roster returning next season. Not many coaches would be able to survive 4 straight non-NCAA Tournament seasons, with the core of his top recruiting class having bailed on the program. But this is Georgetown, the coach is Patrick Ewing and John Thompson II is still alive. My guess is Ewing will get at least 5 seasons to make the NCAAs, assuming he wants to stay that long. Given this, I think Ewing's best bet is to ditch one, possibly two of his assistants as soon as the season is over. And he needs to replace them with at least one, ideally two highly connected recruiters - people with close ties to a top tier prep school program and/or a top tier AAU program. Those new assistants need to bring in 1 or more highly sought after recruits immediately. DePaul did this with the young coach from La Lumiere a few years ago - guy was certainly shady, but he brought several recruits with him and may have saved Leitao's job in the process. Orr and Waheed have brought very little to the table from a recruiting perspective - those guys should both be on the chopping block, in my opinion (Waheed especially, whose DC roots have generated measly recruiting results). Kirby hasn't exactly been lighting it up either, to me he gets way too big a pass on the board... Kirby produced Josh LeBlanc, who is Ewing's highest ranked recruit - who seemed like a great player and kid until earlier this year. Also produced Otto Porter many years ago. But let's be honest, none of the 3 are world beaters. I'd be fine with replacing all 3. Kirby seems like the most accomplished of the 3 currently. Waheed is failing miserably as the "DC guy" and Orr is pretty bad as the "bench coach/strategy guy".
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TC
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Post by TC on Jan 8, 2020 12:36:29 GMT -5
I think if we had a normal athletic department, it probably would be too late. We're a few more losses away from missing the NCAAs three years in a row, with a much worse roster returning next season. Not many coaches would be able to survive 4 straight non-NCAA Tournament seasons, with the core of his top recruiting class having bailed on the program. But this is Georgetown, the coach is Patrick Ewing and John Thompson II is still alive. My guess is Ewing will get at least 5 seasons to make the NCAAs, assuming he wants to stay that long. Why should PE get 5 years even here? JT3 missed the tournament three times in four years and got fired for it. In 2017, the criteria people were setting for success was a Sweet 16 at least in the first four years, because just making the tournament and having a great seed wasn't enough. We had 2 and 3 seed teams that people here were calling failures.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Jan 8, 2020 12:50:00 GMT -5
Kirby hasn't exactly been lighting it up either, to me he gets way too big a pass on the board... Kirby produced Josh LeBlanc, who is Ewing's highest ranked recruit - who seemed like a great player and kid until earlier this year. Also produced Otto Porter many years ago. But let's be honest, none of the 3 are world beaters. I'd be fine with replacing all 3. Kirby seems like the most accomplished of the 3 currently. Waheed is failing miserably as the "DC guy" and Orr is pretty bad as the "bench coach/strategy guy". Owens had as much to do with Leblanc as Kirby did but 1 recruit. In 3 years is not great in my view... What scares me is that I doubt PE makes changes with the staff after the year...
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RBHoya
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Post by RBHoya on Jan 8, 2020 14:32:59 GMT -5
It's sometimes hard to ascribe every recruit to a particular assistant, but I believe one of the assistants other than Waheed was the main point of contact for Wahab, even though he went to high school in the area. Forget if it was Kirby or Orr though. Orr was the lead on Wilson, and I believe also on Gardner (he still has some Ohio/midwest ties from his BGSU days). With Williams decommitting, and apparently only committing in the first place because his dad was a Georgetown fan, I'm not sure what Waheed can really point to as his contributions to the roster since joining the program almost 4 years ago. Maybe Terrell Allen? Dozens of high major kids graduate from high schools in our backyard every year (including like 5 or 6 in the last few years from his alma mater) and I'm not sure his "connections" have yielded any of them.
None of this should come as much of a surprise though, given that Patrick got his coaching staff the same way he got his "Chief of Staff". In aggregate we've got a coach born in the '50s, two born in the early '60s and one born in the mid 70s--all of whom came of age during the programs glory years and got their positions in no small part because they kowtow to that legacy--trying to sell kids who barely even know who Allen Iverson is on coming to Georgetown. I'm sure they are all good guys and well-intentioned, but I think AT LEAST one needs to go, probably two. The results just aren't there. The last class was full of recruiting misses, buoyed a bit by landing Wahab and then Gardner late, but the 2020 class just isn't good enough at this stage of their tenure either. Contrast what Waheed and co. have done with what a guy like Kevin Broadus did in the early JTIII years, landing 3 All-America types in Summers, Macklin and Freeman long before we sniffed an NCAA tournament game. That's the kind of guy Patrick needs recruiting for him if this is ever going to work.
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IDenj
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Post by IDenj on Jan 8, 2020 14:35:14 GMT -5
Kirby produced Josh LeBlanc, who is Ewing's highest ranked recruit - who seemed like a great player and kid until earlier this year. Also produced Otto Porter many years ago. But let's be honest, none of the 3 are world beaters. I'd be fine with replacing all 3. Kirby seems like the most accomplished of the 3 currently. Waheed is failing miserably as the "DC guy" and Orr is pretty bad as the "bench coach/strategy guy". Owens had as much to do with Leblanc as Kirby did but 1 recruit. In 3 years is not great in my view... What scares me is that I doubt PE makes changes with the staff after the year... I get the feeling these assistants are his ride or die guys. Unless they fall on their own swords I agree, I don’t think he makes changes. Cleaning house is what’s needed. At least two locally connected assistants are what’s in order.
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reformation
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Post by reformation on Jan 8, 2020 16:30:01 GMT -5
I guess question is does Ewing really have any accountability and to whom. Not sure--AD probably would have been gone in a lot of places. Men's soccer NCAA title probably gives him something to hang his hat on.
If Ewing wants to keep these guys on, responsibility is his at end of the day. I would suspect the program will also have some lean financial times again if no NCAA appearances over the next two years. If I had to guess we will probably add one or two to the staff maybe let one asst go. Also not sure why we don't really seem to be on intl players at all. Would seem to be a natural for Georgetown.
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LCPolo18
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Post by LCPolo18 on Jan 8, 2020 17:23:04 GMT -5
From reports last spring, Waheed was all in on Williams and Davis. Not ending up with either isn’t a great look for him. I disagree with what someone said earlier, the Hoyas don’t need two DC recruiting assistants, they just need one good one and not have overlapping recruiting responsibilities. Waheed seems like a great guy, but if he’s the lead DC recruiter, that’s an area that people on the board have noted as lacking.
I also think that a proven NYC/New England/New Jersey recruiter would be really beneficial to the program. The Big East still means something to kids that grow up in the area. And players from the NEPSAC would have an easy transition to life at Georgetown.
One interesting note is that Coach Crouch has spoken with some recruits on the phone with Ewing. He also appears to have a good relationship with Pickett at least. So either Ewing is taking him up to recruits as a skills developer, or he’s being groomed for a larger role in the future.
I could be wrong on some of these and Ewing probably has a big role in all of them, but this is my understanding as far as attribution (sorry if I missed anyone doing it from memory, and didn’t include walker since he was recruited by the previous staff):
Dickerson - Kirby Malinowski - Waheed Sodom - ? Blair - ? Pickett - Ewing/Waheed Carter - Kirby? LeBlanc - Kirby McClung - Ewing/full staff Akinjo - Ewing/Kirby Yurtseven - Ewing? Alexander - Kirby Gardner - Orr Wilson - Orr Ighoefe - ? Wahab - ? Allen - ? Harris - ?
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Jan 8, 2020 17:50:07 GMT -5
From reports last spring, Waheed was all in on Williams and Davis. Not ending up with either isn’t a great look for him. I disagree with what someone said earlier, the Hoyas don’t need two DC recruiting assistants, they just need one good one and not have overlapping recruiting responsibilities. Waheed seems like a great guy, but if he’s the lead DC recruiter, that’s an area that people on the board have noted as lacking. I also think that a proven NYC/New England/New Jersey recruiter would be really beneficial to the program. The Big East still means something to kids that grow up in the area. And players from the NEPSAC would have an easy transition to life at Georgetown. One interesting note is that Coach Crouch has spoken with some recruits on the phone with Ewing. He also appears to have a good relationship with Pickett at least. So either Ewing is taking him up to recruits as a skills developer, or he’s being groomed for a larger role in the future. I could be wrong on some of these and Ewing probably has a big role in all of them, but this is my understanding as far as attribution (sorry if I missed anyone doing it from memory, and didn’t include walker since he was recruited by the previous staff): Dickerson - Kirby Malinowski - Waheed Sodom - ? Blair - ? Pickett - Ewing/Waheed Carter - Kirby? LeBlanc - Kirby McClung - Ewing/full staff Akinjo - Ewing/Kirby Yurtseven - Ewing? Alexander - Kirby Gardner - Orr Wilson - Orr Ighoefe - ? Wahab - ? Allen - ? Harris - ? I'm a big fan of this point, there's a lot of talent in New England... Plus Ewing played for the BABC aau team...
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saxagael
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Post by saxagael on Jan 9, 2020 8:10:08 GMT -5
It takes about 3 years for a new coach in a rebuilding program to get their guys in. The process starts working with youth program coaches about 7th or 8th grade for some of the top players. But, the relationships begin around freshman year where coaches are seeing how players do in high school and who stand out and fit the type of program they want to build. The live look-in period the summer after freshman year is when coaches can officially talk to kids and families a little, but it is then that the relationships start. Last year was the first cycle that Ewing was fully in on. Top players for wings and bigs that have surfaced as potential top D1 players are mostly hooked into 10 to 15 programs by their first summer after high school, getting in on that after that period is really tough unless you are a top 10 school.
The first 2 to 3 years of a new coach in a rebuilding program coaches are mostly scrambling and taking scraps and de-commits or are picking up late rising players. Most coaches are looking at filling in for what is leaving 2 to 3 years out, not filling in current gaps. But, they also target kids who fit their system, which takes kids seeing the system they are running and having them want to be in that program to help them reach their goals.
Patrick only has about 6 to 8 games truly showing what his style of play is, since Akinjo and Leblanc left. The style of play that Ewing is showing should be a big draw for a lot of 3 and 4 star kids and it fits that level all working as a team to win in conference play and go deep in the tournament or win it all. It takes time and a lot of work.
The 2021 class, which would be a good full cycle for Ewing and his staff isn't all that deep, but 2022 is has a lot of depth and really good players in the 4 and high 3 star level already. Ewing has offers out to quite a few of the top players who also fit his style of play.
2020 class is likely going to be a bit of a scramble still, particularly given the transfers this year, but there is a good solid group in already, and it will be a waiting and persuing game to get a good incoming class and transfers who can play and contribute next year.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 9, 2020 18:40:01 GMT -5
I don't say this to be glib, but frankly if the 2020 and 2021 classes aren't good, I am not sure Ewing will have a 2022 class. Without success - and we won't have success unless we bring in high quality players one way or another in 2020/2021 - Ewing will not have the luxury of waiting for the 2022 class.
It's great to see the staff all over the remaining 2020 class, and I am hoping Ewing can pull this off. Granted, whether he needs to do that with some changes to his staff is a legitimate discussion to be having.
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BigmanU
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Post by BigmanU on Jan 10, 2020 10:15:42 GMT -5
I don't say this to be glib, but frankly if the 2020 and 2021 classes aren't good, I am not sure Ewing will have a 2022 class. Without success - and we won't have success unless we bring in high quality players one way or another in 2020/2021 - Ewing will not have the luxury of waiting for the 2022 class. It's great to see the staff all over the remaining 2020 class, and I am hoping Ewing can pull this off. Granted, whether he needs to do that with some changes to his staff is a legitimate discussion to be having. You could that that about any coach at a high major. I assumed that was a given.
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calhoya
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Post by calhoya on Jan 10, 2020 10:54:31 GMT -5
I do not think it is unfair to expect results soon, rather than asking the fans to essentially give the program a pass for this year and next. Ewing has shown a willingness to recruit hard. The results have not been great yet but they have been solid. THe departures this season may not rightfully all be blamed on Ewing, but as the leader of the program he has to shoulder some responsibility for the players recruited, how they were used and their unhappiness with their roles, however unjustified. That said, from this series of setbacks has come a great opportunity for the coach and the program. With a reduced bench, Ewing has the opportunity to show what kind of a coach he can be. So far the results have been more good than bad, but there is half a season still to prove his coaching chops. A tournament bid is not necessary, but consistent progress, hard work, focus and Ewing will have some significant accomplishments to tout to grad transfers, decommits and the remaining heralded freshmen.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Jan 10, 2020 11:32:55 GMT -5
I do not think it is unfair to expect results soon, rather than asking the fans to essentially give the program a pass for this year and next. Ewing has shown a willingness to recruit hard. The results have not been great yet but they have been solid. THe departures this season may not rightfully all be blamed on Ewing, but as the leader of the program he has to shoulder some responsibility for the players recruited, how they were used and their unhappiness with their roles, however unjustified. That said, from this series of setbacks has come a great opportunity for the coach and the program. With a reduced bench, Ewing has the opportunity to show what kind of a coach he can be. So far the results have been more good than bad, but there is half a season still to prove his coaching chops. A tournament bid is not necessary, but consistent progress, hard work, focus and Ewing will have some significant accomplishments to tout to grad transfers, decommits and the remaining heralded freshmen. I'm not sure what the "significant accomplishments" would be without a tournament bid. Through no particular fault of his own, Ewing has a recruiting paradox on his hands. Unless you're Bob Huggins, you can't build a consistent winner out of jucos, grad transfers and decommits. But if you can't get top recruits to commit (and let's be transparent, Georgetown hasn't signed a top 40 freshman recruit since Otto Porter in 2011) you aren't consistently competing for conference championships and NCAA seeds either. You can either lower expectations and build long term with middle tier players like Butler or Creighton does, or swing for the fences. And when you swing for the fences, sometimes you strike out, and then what? Twenty years ago Georgetown could make a case it was thisclose to getting an invitation into the lacrosse elite, but it didn't happen and the program has basically dialed down the expectation going forward. The basketball office doesn't want to get to a point where it communicates to recruits (and by extension, fans and alumni), that Georgetown really isn't competing for championships anymore. When you've got a Final Four budget but an NIT output, this is the problem he is facing in recruiting--the Jaren Jacksons of the world aren't going to East Lansing because they like Romanesque architecture or small class sizes, it's because they can win there. Can a top recruit win at Georgetown with the roster as constructed?
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Post by aleutianhoya on Jan 10, 2020 11:45:45 GMT -5
I do not think it is unfair to expect results soon, rather than asking the fans to essentially give the program a pass for this year and next. Ewing has shown a willingness to recruit hard. The results have not been great yet but they have been solid. THe departures this season may not rightfully all be blamed on Ewing, but as the leader of the program he has to shoulder some responsibility for the players recruited, how they were used and their unhappiness with their roles, however unjustified. That said, from this series of setbacks has come a great opportunity for the coach and the program. With a reduced bench, Ewing has the opportunity to show what kind of a coach he can be. So far the results have been more good than bad, but there is half a season still to prove his coaching chops. A tournament bid is not necessary, but consistent progress, hard work, focus and Ewing will have some significant accomplishments to tout to grad transfers, decommits and the remaining heralded freshmen. I'm not sure what the "significant accomplishments" would be without a tournament bid. Through no particular fault of his own, Ewing has a recruiting paradox on his hands. Unless you're Bob Huggins, you can't build a consistent winner out of jucos, grad transfers and decommits. But if you can't get top recruits to commit (and let's be transparent, Georgetown hasn't signed a top 40 freshman recruit since Otto Porter in 2011) you aren't consistently competing for conference championships and NCAA seeds either. You can either lower expectations and build long term with middle tier players like Butler or Creighton does, or swing for the fences. And when you swing for the fences, sometimes you strike out, and then what? Twenty years ago Georgetown could make a case it was thisclose to getting an invitation into the lacrosse elite, but it didn't happen and the program has basically dialed down the expectation going forward. The basketball office doesn't want to get to a point where it communicates to recruits (and by extension, fans and alumni), that Georgetown really isn't competing for championships anymore. When you've got a Final Four budget but an NIT output, this is the problem he is facing in recruiting--the Jaren Jacksons of the world aren't going to East Lansing because they like Romanesque architecture or small class sizes, it's because they can win there. Can a top recruit win at Georgetown with the roster as constructed? I think the paradox presents a false choice and isn't really a paradox. We should continue to swing for the fences because you simply never know which recruit might well want to come. We do so recognizing that many may have limited interest and that even among those that do, the current powers may swoop in at the end and grab them from us. But I don't see any reason to stop trying with those sorts of kids. After all, just as North Carolina or Duke may swoop in and take a kid we thought we had a chance with, once that happens, we should be well positioned to swoop in and take a kid away from schools a tier below us (A-10, AAC, etc.). Indeed, we've done that at times, with some success. The key to all of it is fit. Sure, if we end up with a five-star recruit, we likely can make the fit work just on talent alone. But for everyone else, they've got to fit into whatever it is we're trying to build. If we strikeout on "swing for the fences" types, don't just look to sign the highest-rated player we can find that's still available, try to sign someone that fits with the current roster needs and programmatic goals. It's all far easier said than done, of course. But even if we keep striking out, we have to continue to try to hit homeruns.
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swhoya
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Post by swhoya on Jan 10, 2020 13:05:47 GMT -5
Glad I came to see how was on campus this weekend...
Pretty sure there are 97 other threads these comments could be in instead.
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Post by HometownHoya on Jan 10, 2020 13:07:02 GMT -5
Glad I came to see how was on campus this weekend... Pretty sure there are 97 other threads these comments could be in instead. There were apparently two prospects at the St.J game...anyone know who they were?
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hoya73
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Post by hoya73 on Jan 10, 2020 13:41:02 GMT -5
the 2 guards from Middleburg Academy. See 2021 recruiting thread for more info.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 10, 2020 13:42:41 GMT -5
(and let's be transparent, Georgetown hasn't signed a top 40 freshman recruit since Otto Porter in 2011) Except for Isaac Copeland, who was 28 in the RSCI index (actually higher than Porter), and only under 40 in one service. Obviously, it didn't work out as well as Porter did. For what it's worth, ESPN had Peak & White in the top 40 too, though other services had them more in the 50-60 range. I didn't think about it until now, but that 2014 class was sort of a similar problem for JT3 as the 2018 class has become for Ewing. In 2014, JT3 brought in Peak, White, Campell, and Copleand, all very well regarded except Campbell, and really only Peak worked out, which was a major, major, blow for him and likely directly led to his demise. Similarly, Ewing brought in McClung, Akinjo, and LeBlanc, and now is left with one. While the 2018 class wasn't as highly regarded as 2014, you cannot whiff on over half of entire important class and have success easily. JT3's troubles with the 2014 class weren't as dramatic as Ewing's this year (since White, Copeland, and Campbell left more slowly and without off court trouble), but the similarities are interesting.
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guru
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Post by guru on Jan 10, 2020 14:14:28 GMT -5
(and let's be transparent, Georgetown hasn't signed a top 40 freshman recruit since Otto Porter in 2011) Except for Isaac Copeland, who was 28 in the RSCI index (actually higher than Porter), and only under 40 in one service. Obviously, it didn't work out as well as Porter did. For what it's worth, ESPN had Peak & White in the top 40 too, though other services had them more in the 50-60 range. I didn't think about it until now, but that 2014 class was sort of a similar problem for JT3 as the 2018 class has become for Ewing. In 2014, JT3 brought in Peak, White, Campell, and Copleand, all very well regarded except Campbell, and really only Peak worked out, which was a major, major, blow for him and likely directly led to his demise. Similarly, Ewing brought in McClung, Akinjo, and LeBlanc, and now is left with one. While the 2018 class wasn't as highly regarded as 2014, you cannot whiff on over half of entire important class and have success easily. JT3's troubles with the 2014 class weren't as dramatic as Ewing's this year (since White, Copeland, and Campbell left more slowly and without off court trouble), but the similarities are interesting. You talk about JT3 an awful lot on here. Dude's gone. You're clearly rooting for Ewing to meet the same fate and reaching for parallels between their tenures. Your JT3 stuff just gets repetitive after a bit.
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