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Post by HometownHoya on Apr 4, 2017 12:28:13 GMT -5
Those guys have done close to nothing here. They're d-1 players, but they really shouldn't be at Georgetown, and if III could recruit, they wouldn't be. Outside of Campbell, those 3 guys have been on the court for a combined 4 seasons (closer to 3 seasons since Kaleb didn't get PT his FR year). Give them a chance.
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Post by hoyacane11 on Apr 4, 2017 12:35:09 GMT -5
Those guys have done close to nothing here. They're d-1 players, but they really shouldn't be at Georgetown, and if III could recruit, they wouldn't be. Outside of Campbell, those 3 guys have been on the court for a combined 4 seasons (closer to 3 seasons since Kaleb didn't get PT his FR year). Give them a chance. Bro, I love those guys, they're Hoyas. Truth is though, they're very limited in their abilities. It doesn't take a good player that long to show promise. All over the country we're seeing true freshmen and sophomores lead teams deep into the tournament. We simply don't have a lot to work with. Hopefully Patrick can get a couple impactful grad transfers, get Waters back, get a guy or two to flip, and make a run at a couple uncommitted players and we can make some noise this upcoming season.
Would be extra nice if he can convince Peak to stay and play in an offense better suited to his skills so he can be a 1st instead of a 2nd round draft pick.
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Post by hoya2x2010 on Apr 4, 2017 13:04:32 GMT -5
I would like to have a sip or puff of whatever you are treating yourself to. It's called being optimistic. Maybe you should try it some time. Doesn't require mind altering substances to be positive. There's being optimistic, and then there's being wrong / misleading. I agree there's lots of room for improvement for Moseley (and I sympathize with him b/c way too much responsibility was placed on his shoulders this year). I disagree that he (or any of our guards) is solid on defense, at least as of now. Also disagree that he (or any of our guards) was composed this year. Really, the two hallmarks of this team were swiss cheese defense, esp from our guards, and a total lack of composure. Again, giving him a pass b/c he's a freshman forced into a tough spot, but not giving credit where credit is not due, either. As for Johnson, I hope he becomes a good role player. Love him as a kid. He did NOT improve this year though. Tell me how you think he improved? Hoping a new regime works out for him. Agau - good energy guy, respect and appreciate his hustle. Won't hear me say anything negative about him. Campbell - Agree that he allows other guards to rest.........
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Post by HometownHoya on Apr 4, 2017 13:23:38 GMT -5
It's called being optimistic. Maybe you should try it some time. Doesn't require mind altering substances to be positive. There's being optimistic, and then there's being wrong / misleading. I agree there's lots of room for improvement for Moseley (and I sympathize with him b/c way too much responsibility was placed on his shoulders this year). I disagree that he (or any of our guards) is solid on defense, at least as of now. Also disagree that he (or any of our guards) was composed this year. Really, the two hallmarks of this team were swiss cheese defense, esp from our guards, and a total lack of composure. Again, giving him a pass b/c he's a freshman forced into a tough spot, but not giving credit where credit is not due, either. As for Johnson, I hope he becomes a good role player. Love him as a kid. He did NOT improve this year though. Tell me how you think he improved? Hoping a new regime works out for him. Agau - good energy guy, respect and appreciate his hustle. Won't hear me say anything negative about him. Campbell - Agree that he allows other guards to rest......... We'll just have to agree to disagree about a few things. I don't think anything in my post was wrong or misleading enough to be accused of being on drugs on a Tuesday morning. Moseley defense was the best of the guards. As you pointed out defense overall wasn't good but Moseley wasn't the source of that. He has other weaker aspects of his game to work on before he improves his defense (which is adequate if he has the support a guard needs from the back line). Agree on the hope that Johnson becomes a good role player but he definitely did improve. He could barely dribble the ball up the court his Freshman year. I've never expected him to be more then a role player so I'm not waiting for a Henry Sims like jump. Fully agree about Agau and Campbell although I think Agau still has more to show us the further he gets from his injuries.
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Big Dog
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by Big Dog on Apr 4, 2017 14:09:54 GMT -5
Just a reminder that we fired a coach that took over a roster not much better this one and he put us in the Sweet 16 year 2, the Final Four year 3. He also had Hibbert, Wallace, and Green. Those three alone make that team much better than this one. No one in their right minds dared to dream on April 20, 2004 that Roy Hibbert, Jon Wallace, and Jeff Green would turn into Roy Hibbert, Jon Wallace, and Jeff Green.
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Big Dog
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by Big Dog on Apr 4, 2017 14:17:15 GMT -5
Here's a question:
Is there anyone who would not sign up right now for the following?
- The Sweet Sixteen in two seasons - The Final Four in 3 seasons - 3 BE titles - Making the tournament 8 of the next 10 years - Losing seasons in years 11 and 12
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thedragon
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Enter your message here...
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Post by thedragon on Apr 4, 2017 14:23:43 GMT -5
Here's a question: Is there anyone who would not sign up right now for the following? - The Sweet Sixteen in two seasons - The Final Four in 3 seasons - 3 BE titles - Making the tournament 8 of the next 10 years - Losing seasons in years 11 and 12 Sounds great! And then I would want him fired in year 13 being 10 years removed from a Final 4, not getting past the first weekend in 8, and having a roster built to fail in near future. Why do we keep hammering this nail>
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Big Dog
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by Big Dog on Apr 4, 2017 14:29:48 GMT -5
Here's a question: Is there anyone who would not sign up right now for the following? - The Sweet Sixteen in two seasons - The Final Four in 3 seasons - 3 BE titles - Making the tournament 8 of the next 10 years - Losing seasons in years 11 and 12 Sounds great! And then I would want him fired in year 13 being 10 years removed from a Final 4, not getting past the first weekend in 8, and having a roster built to fail in near future. Why do we keep hammering this nail> Because elsewhere I'm reading that the JTIII era was a "mixed bag" and/or that JTIII's selection as coach in 2004 is evidence that the University doesn't know what they're doing when hiring a new coach. Dragon, I couldn't agree more. These aren't lifetime positions. It can both be the case that the JTIII era was a clear success and that it was time for it to be over. We would be incredibly fortunate--and it is highly unlikely--that Ewing replicates JTIII's success.
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This Just In
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Bold Prediction: The Hoyas will win at least 1 BE game in 2023.
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Post by This Just In on Apr 4, 2017 14:56:41 GMT -5
Sounds great! And then I would want him fired in year 13 being 10 years removed from a Final 4, not getting past the first weekend in 8, and having a roster built to fail in near future. Why do we keep hammering this nail> Because elsewhere I'm reading that the JTIII era was a "mixed bag" and/or that JTIII's selection as coach in 2004 is evidence that the University doesn't know what they're doing when hiring a new coach. Dragon, I couldn't agree more. These aren't lifetime positions. It can both be the case that the JTIII era was a clear success and that it was time for it to be over. We would be incredibly fortunate--and it is highly unlikely--that Ewing replicates JTIII's success. On a scale of 1 to 10, how bad of a shape do you think the program is in right now? With 1 being the worst.
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Nevada Hoya
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Post by Nevada Hoya on Apr 4, 2017 15:02:04 GMT -5
NCAA championship game by year 1; a little fall off in year 2; NCAA champs by year 3; NCAA championship game by year 4. Oops that is Patrick's line as a player.
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Big Dog
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by Big Dog on Apr 4, 2017 15:49:56 GMT -5
Because elsewhere I'm reading that the JTIII era was a "mixed bag" and/or that JTIII's selection as coach in 2004 is evidence that the University doesn't know what they're doing when hiring a new coach. Dragon, I couldn't agree more. These aren't lifetime positions. It can both be the case that the JTIII era was a clear success and that it was time for it to be over. We would be incredibly fortunate--and it is highly unlikely--that Ewing replicates JTIII's success. On a scale of 1 to 10, how bad of a shape do you think the program is in right now? With 1 being the worst. Georgetown during the Ewing through Mutombo era was a 10. DePaul is a 1. Georgetown between the Mourning and Iverson eras was an 8. Georgetown during the Iverson era was a 10 (at least superficially on the court). Georgetown with Victor Page in 1996--1997 was an 8. Georgetown when JT quit was a 7. Georgetown immediately before it was known Esherick would be fired was a 2 and upon the announcement of Esh's firing was a 4. Georgetown upon the hiring of JTIII (which, by the way, came a month after Esh was let go) was immediately a 5 (he had just taken a team to the NCAAs). 2005-2006 Georgetown was an 8, the two BE title years were 10s, and then we were a 9 until the old BE ended. The next year we were a 7, because of the anxiety about the diminished conference and the NIT--I'm not sure if the Utah year we made it back to 8 or not. The subsequent two years have been terrible, but meanwhile we suddenly have this incredible practice facility, and the conference has stabilized and established itself nationally thanks to Nova's title and the excellent play of Creighton/Butler/Xavier since joining the league. We were regularly competitive against very good teams most of this season, and the talent was there to have made the tournament under the right coach. But we have lost both of our leading scorers. I would say that in the days between the end of the season and JTIII's firing when none of us knew if he could actually be fired things were at a 4 and in danger of dropping to Esh levels with one more losing year. But when he was fired, we moved back to something like a 5--probably right where we were when he was hired 13 years ago. If we were bringing back last year's roster next season, I might even say 6.
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by SFHoya99 on Apr 4, 2017 22:19:49 GMT -5
Short term, which is really the only benchmarks I am interested in anymore: - Players play with a high level of effort
- Players can play defense without fouling everyone
- The offense shows some sense of structure and cohesion -- like we have an offense or a plan
- We see some evidence that he or his assistants can recruit
I am giving Ewing a complete pass for results for next year simply because I do not believe at all in the remaining talent on the squad in terms of results. I think if he accomplishes the above, we might have a mediocre team. And I'm not going to punish Ewing for not pulling in a top class in April, though I will give him points for any talent he can add this year. The program isn't so far removed from success as we were in 2004. But the actual cupboard may be more bare in that there is not much of an incoming class. III not only made the most of that class, but he also got so much more out of Ashanti Cook and Brandon Bowman, amongst others. If Ewing can get something out of Mosley or Kaleb or Govan ... I will be similarly impressed. I don't see a lot of point in arguing whether a tournament every year is realistic or whether the administration is really trying to win a national title. Evaluate on process, not just results.
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TC
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by TC on Apr 5, 2017 8:34:51 GMT -5
It's amazing to me after listening to six years of people setting in-tournament failure as a reason for firing JT3 that absolutely no one is willing to step up and set it as a benchmark for Patrick Ewing's success.
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hoyainspirit
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
When life puts that voodoo on me, music is my gris-gris.
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Post by hoyainspirit on Apr 5, 2017 10:11:01 GMT -5
Improve rebounding. Please improve rebounding.
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Post by HoyaRejuveNation85 on Apr 5, 2017 12:21:55 GMT -5
It's amazing to me after listening to six years of people setting in-tournament failure as a reason for firing JT3 that absolutely no one is willing to step up and set it as a benchmark for Patrick Ewing's success. The cupboard is clearly more bare to my eyes than in 2004. Antwan Walker is not Jeff, Roy and JWall. I like Mosely's upside (his toughness, physical maturity, especially on defense and I think his assist/turnover ratio had to be among the best on the team), and the potential of Govan, Agau and Derrickson (who was not at the presser by the way -- class?), but they aren't Cook, Bowman and Owens. I hope for the NCAAs next year, but realistically, I don't see it happening until year 3 or 4 and that's assuming Patrick signs some good classes for 2018 and 19.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Apr 5, 2017 13:05:26 GMT -5
It's amazing to me after listening to six years of people setting in-tournament failure as a reason for firing JT3 that absolutely no one is willing to step up and set it as a benchmark for Patrick Ewing's success. I thought JTIII needed to go at the end, but I still don't think the tournament upsets are the reason for it. Trolls generally only come out to play to complain.
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iowa80
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by iowa80 on Apr 5, 2017 13:23:57 GMT -5
It's amazing to me after listening to six years of people setting in-tournament failure as a reason for firing JT3 that absolutely no one is willing to step up and set it as a benchmark for Patrick Ewing's success. Given the various levels of in-tournament failure, it's a difficult criteria to articulate before the fact. If and when Patrick loses as a 3 to a 14 and as a 2 to a 15, I expect that there will be criticism. Considering the state of the program, we may have awhile before high seeds are an issue, however.
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dailey247
Century (over 100 posts)
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Post by dailey247 on Apr 5, 2017 13:29:18 GMT -5
Years 1 - 3: Consistent improvement year over year. At least one NIT berth. Top 40 in the country in offensive efficiency. Fun, watchable basketball. No more than 2 consecutive games featuring a 5 minute scoring drought. Years 4 - 10: At least six NCAA tournament appearances and 3 sweet 16s. Afterwards: Miss consecutive tournaments and you're fired.
That's the MINIMUM standard we should hold our program to, and if it isn't met further changes should be made quickly, without bringing the fan base to/over the brink of revolt.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Apr 5, 2017 13:44:35 GMT -5
It's amazing to me after listening to six years of people setting in-tournament failure as a reason for firing JT3 that absolutely no one is willing to step up and set it as a benchmark for Patrick Ewing's success. The cupboard is clearly more bare to my eyes than in 2004. Antwan Walker is not Jeff, Roy and JWall. I like Mosely's upside (his toughness, physical maturity, especially on defense and I think his assist/turnover ratio had to be among the best on the team), and the potential of Govan, Agau and Derrickson (who was not at the presser by the way -- class?), but they aren't Cook, Bowman and Owens. I hope for the NCAAs next year, but realistically, I don't see it happening until year 3 or 4 and that's assuming Patrick signs some good classes for 2018 and 19. Keep in mind the benefit of hindsight. JT3 made Cook, Bowman, and Owens substantially better offensive players within the span of a year. 2004 (Esherick): Offensive efficiency ratings: Bowman: 93.4 Cook: 88.7 Owens: 109.0 2005 (JT3): Offensive efficiency ratings: Bowman: 112.4 Cook: 102.3 Owens: 124.8 Obviously, this is only one stat, but JT3 made an enormous difference with these three guys, making them substantially better year-over-year. Can Ewing do that with Derrickson, Govan, Johnson, etc.? I don't know, but obviously that would be a major step toward our improvement.
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GIGAFAN99
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Apr 5, 2017 13:49:33 GMT -5
We're 5 years removed from NCAA upsets being our biggest problem.
Job #1 is to get above water and make some postseason. He essentially has to recruit an entire team in 2018-19 (at least 8 slots open) so that gives him a chance to recruit to his system. Then we'll get a better idea how everything is progressing.
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