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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2017 10:16:48 GMT -5
Except we are not talking about a company, and a college basketball program should not be run in any respect the same way as a for-profit corporate endeavor. And in other respects the comparison does not work. For instance, fans are not the same as customers on any level. No disrespect- the post was well reasoned, but I simply believe the comparison does not work. Others surely will disagree. I disagree on your points about how it could/should be run, and that fans do not equal customers. Fans are absolutely customers. Whether they're buying tickets, or t-shirts, or donating to the Hoop Club, they're the customers of a college basketball program. And they can always decide to spend their money elsewhere if they don't like the product they're paying for. But we can agree to disagree there. Whether it's a company or a basketball program, any entity has a culture. And there's no question that the culture of Hoya basketball right now is terrible. And whether it's a company or a basketball program, it's REALLY hard to turn a culture around when you're the one who was in charge when it went sour. Not impossible, but not likely either.
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SaxaCD
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Post by SaxaCD on Mar 17, 2017 10:41:36 GMT -5
Except we are not talking about a company, and a college basketball program should not be run in any respect the same way as a for-profit corporate endeavor. And in other respects the comparison does not work. For instance, fans are not the same as customers on any level. No disrespect- the post was well reasoned, but I simply believe the comparison does not work. Others surely will disagree. I disagree on your points about how it could/should be run, and that fans do not equal customers. Fans are absolutely customers. Whether they're buying tickets, or t-shirts, or donating to the Hoop Club, they're the customers of a college basketball program. And they can always decide to spend their money elsewhere if they don't like the product they're paying for. But we can agree to disagree there. Whether it's a company or a basketball program, any entity has a culture. And there's no question that the culture of Hoya basketball right now is terrible. And whether it's a company or a basketball program, it's REALLY hard to turn a culture around when you're the one who was in charge when it went sour. Not impossible, but not likely either. This is why I think 3 is going to be very successful and back in the touney soner than later. I just don't see it with Georgetown.
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TC
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Post by TC on Mar 17, 2017 10:48:21 GMT -5
Whether it's a company or a basketball program, any entity has a culture. And there's no question that the culture of Hoya basketball right now is terrible. And whether it's a company or a basketball program, it's REALLY hard to turn a culture around when you're the one who was in charge when it went sour. Not impossible, but not likely either. You're confusing fan sentiment with organizational culture. We have no idea what the culture of the basketball program is like right now. Fan sentiment is pretty toxic and will be very tough to turn around. Team culture is much easier to turn around - sometimes the same coach manages to do it midseason.
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CTHoya08
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Post by CTHoya08 on Mar 17, 2017 11:17:33 GMT -5
Parade of transfers, top recruit de-committing. Yeah, we have no idea what the culture within the program is like.
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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Mar 17, 2017 11:49:01 GMT -5
The way NCAA programs operate is a sham. I think we are the only country that has college sports elevated to the level where people identify with their schools in some part by their teams. It has gotten out of control. It is definitely a business when your top paid employee at most schools is a sports coach. With increased pay comes increased focus on results and we as a program have fallen flat in this regard.
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TC
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Post by TC on Mar 17, 2017 12:01:35 GMT -5
Parade of transfers, top recruit de-committing. Yeah, we have no idea what the culture within the program is like. We don't. We know that Tremont Waters was sold on that culture in October.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Mar 17, 2017 13:00:08 GMT -5
Parade of transfers, top recruit de-committing. Yeah, we have no idea what the culture within the program is like. We don't. We know that Tremont Waters was sold on that culture in October. I'm not sure what culture you're referring to TC.. Waters was sold on JT3's vision of playing "faster", he said as much in interviews after he announced..
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TC
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Post by TC on Mar 17, 2017 13:10:40 GMT -5
We don't. We know that Tremont Waters was sold on that culture in October. I'm not sure what culture you're referring to TC.. Waters was sold on JT3's vision of playing "faster", he said as much in interviews after he announced.. sportzedge.com/2017/02/17/one-on-one-with-notre-dame-west-haven-star-tremont-waters/When did you know that was the place for you?"My second visit, when I went back. It was less of a basketball feel, more of a they wanted to show me around campus, show me what life would be after basketball. I think that's when I finally made my decision." BTW, watching that interview again, I bet he ends up at Kentucky. I would not be shocked if Kentucky used the anti-JT3 student tantrums against Georgetown and recruited him away based on that.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Mar 17, 2017 13:21:48 GMT -5
I'm not sure what culture you're referring to TC.. Waters was sold on JT3's vision of playing "faster", he said as much in interviews after he announced.. sportzedge.com/2017/02/17/one-on-one-with-notre-dame-west-haven-star-tremont-waters/When did you know that was the place for you?My second visit, when I went back. It was less of a basketball feel, more of a they wanted to show me around campus, show me what life would be after basketball. I think that's when I finally made my decision." BTW, watching that interview again, I bet he ends up at Kentucky. This quote came from Rivals.. "I made my decision on my second visit to Georgetown," said Waters during his press conference. "On my official visit I didn't really watch the basketball side because they were touring us around campus and showing us the academic side. When I was there the second time I got to see them practice and that pretty much wrapped it up." Still not sure what team culture you're referring to, we all know Gtown is a great school but it's separate from the team itself..
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Mar 17, 2017 14:28:54 GMT -5
This quote came from Rivals.. "I made my decision on my second visit to Georgetown," said Waters during his press conference. "On my official visit I didn't really watch the basketball side because they were touring us around campus and showing us the academic side. When I was there the second time I got to see them practice and that pretty much wrapped it up." Still not sure what team culture you're referring to, we all know Gtown is a great school but it's separate from the team itself.. So what changed from seeing them practice on his second visit to now? I mean, Waters hasn't visited the university to my knowledge. I just think it's ridiculous to think he decommitted from the school because of the style of play. I mean, if we played textbook Princeton and went to the NCAA tournament would he have decommitted? I highly doubt it.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Mar 17, 2017 14:42:36 GMT -5
This quote came from Rivals.. "I made my decision on my second visit to Georgetown," said Waters during his press conference. "On my official visit I didn't really watch the basketball side because they were touring us around campus and showing us the academic side. When I was there the second time I got to see them practice and that pretty much wrapped it up." Still not sure what team culture you're referring to, we all know Gtown is a great school but it's separate from the team itself.. So what changed from seeing them practice on his second visit to now? I mean, Waters hasn't visited the university to my knowledge. I just think it's ridiculous to think he decommitted from the school because of the style of play. I mean, if we played textbook Princeton and went to the NCAA tournament would he have decommitted? I highly doubt it. Who's saying style of play is why he changed his mind? I expressed to TC what I thought Waters was sold on in the beginning.. My feelings are he changed his mind because the program is a mess right now, what other reason is needed..
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TC
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Post by TC on Mar 17, 2017 14:54:57 GMT -5
So what changed from seeing them practice on his second visit to now? I mean, Waters hasn't visited the university to my knowledge. I just think it's ridiculous to think he decommitted from the school because of the style of play. I mean, if we played textbook Princeton and went to the NCAA tournament would he have decommitted? I highly doubt it. Who's saying style of play is why he changed his mind? I expressed to TC what I thought Waters was sold on in the beginning.. My feelings are he changed his mind because the program is a mess right now, what other reason is needed.. Translation - he changed his mind because between the three weeks of that interview on WTNH - sportzedge.com/2017/02/17/one-on-one-with-notre-dame-west-haven-star-tremont-waters/ , Casual Hoya and the students went scorched earth to try to get the coach fired. Yes, we lost games during that period. But no one announced a transfer - Copeland's transfer was announced in January, and here Waters is in mid-late February looking pretty happy about becoming a Hoya. Nothing changed with the program during that period.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2017 15:03:44 GMT -5
Whether it's a company or a basketball program, any entity has a culture. And there's no question that the culture of Hoya basketball right now is terrible. And whether it's a company or a basketball program, it's REALLY hard to turn a culture around when you're the one who was in charge when it went sour. Not impossible, but not likely either. You're confusing fan sentiment with organizational culture. We have no idea what the culture of the basketball program is like right now. Fan sentiment is pretty toxic and will be very tough to turn around. Team culture is much easier to turn around - sometimes the same coach manages to do it midseason. Fan sentiment is what it is. It sucks, we all know that. I also don't think Waters was convinced to leave because of negative stuff he read from fans on the internet. As a recruit who has presumably spoken with current and former players, he has more potential insight into the program than any of us. I think he's smart enough that he saw things with his own eyes. And he probably heard rumblings about us from players in other programs too. And AAU coaches. He has access to far better sources than Casual Hoya. And if you're going to say that there's no way to gauge the culture within the program, I think that you're missing a lot of signs: -Grumbling about the negative impact of JT Jr's presence (anonymous, but SOMEONE said those things). -Public negativity towards JT3 from people who have left the program, whether they seemingly left with hard feelings (Copeland) or seemingly not (Bowen). -SOMETHING weird happened with Cameron (briefly in the fall). -Mourning - he's the son of a Hoya legend/member of the school's BoD (who we think is a Jt Jr loyalist), hasn't gotten much run for three years. If you didn't leave after freshman or sophomore year, why leave now? -There are rumblings of other guys potentially looking to leave, and they're not all bench warmers. Why would guys who start games in the Big East and get plenty of run not want to stay? -Absolute inability to recruit - we KNEW 3 guys would be gone at the end of this year (Hayes, Pryor, Cameron). Copeland leaving mid-year makes 4, and you have to assume (in this day and age) that at least one or two others might bounce, right? So, you could be looking at losing 5-6 guys. How do you only have 2 guys coming in - and now you're down to 1 with Waters de-committing? Especially after you basically had a one-man recruiting class last year (unless you're dying to count Muresan). There's either a total lack of foresight, or a complete inability to convince people to come play for you (or, worse, both). Each of these things in a vacuum could be brushed off or explained away. Put them all together, and it's clear that something is not right behind the scenes.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Mar 17, 2017 15:15:34 GMT -5
You're confusing fan sentiment with organizational culture. We have no idea what the culture of the basketball program is like right now. Fan sentiment is pretty toxic and will be very tough to turn around. Team culture is much easier to turn around - sometimes the same coach manages to do it midseason. Fan sentiment is what it is. It sucks, we all know that. I also don't think Waters was convinced to leave because of negative stuff he read from fans on the internet. As a recruit who has presumably spoken with current and former players, he has more potential insight into the program than any of us. I think he's smart enough that he saw things with his own eyes. And he probably heard rumblings about us from players in other programs too. And AAU coaches. He has access to far better sources than Casual Hoya. And if you're going to say that there's no way to gauge the culture within the program, I think that you're missing a lot of signs: -Grumbling about the negative impact of JT Jr's presence (anonymous, but SOMEONE said those things). -Public negativity towards JT3 from people who have left the program, whether they seemingly left with hard feelings (Copeland) or seemingly not (Bowen). -SOMETHING weird happened with Cameron (briefly in the fall). -Mourning - he's the son of a Hoya legend/member of the school's BoD (who we think is a Jt Jr loyalist), hasn't gotten much run for three years. If you didn't leave after freshman or sophomore year, why leave now? -There are rumblings of other guys potentially looking to leave, and they're not all bench warmers. Why would guys who start games in the Big East and get plenty of run not want to stay? -Absolute inability to recruit - we KNEW 3 guys would be gone at the end of this year (Hayes, Pryor, Cameron). Copeland leaving mid-year makes 4, and you have to assume (in this day and age) that at least one or two others might bounce, right? So, you could be looking at losing 5-6 guys. How do you only have 2 guys coming in - and now you're down to 1 with Waters de-committing? Especially after you basically had a one-man recruiting class last year (unless you're dying to count Muresan). There's either a total lack of foresight, or a complete inability to convince people to come play for you (or, worse, both). Each of these things in a vacuum could be brushed off or explained away. Put them all together, and it's clear that something is not right behind the scenes. You make a fair point. BUT, if there are more transfers, I would have to think there's stuff going on behind the scenes that we, as fans, just don't have the ability to see. Coaches are bad all the time, and players don't leave in droves. So if that happens, I would think something has to be going on. On Copeland, I do think it's telling that he came back for his junior year, rather than transferring before then, when he easily could have. Especially if he knew he needed back surgery at the time (maybe he didn't), then why not transfer then? And why didn't Georgetown say anything about it? Yes, I know there are privacy concerns, but if one of your best recruits is suddenly horrible, and he needs back surgery (and the information comes out eventually anyway), why not be on top of it to begin with? The university needs PR help.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Mar 17, 2017 15:21:06 GMT -5
Who's saying style of play is why he changed his mind? I expressed to TC what I thought Waters was sold on in the beginning.. My feelings are he changed his mind because the program is a mess right now, what other reason is needed.. Translation - he changed his mind because between the three weeks of that interview on WTNH - sportzedge.com/2017/02/17/one-on-one-with-notre-dame-west-haven-star-tremont-waters/ , Casual Hoya and the students went scorched earth to try to get the coach fired. Yes, we lost games during that period. But no one announced a transfer - Copeland's transfer was announced in January, and here Waters is in mid-late February looking pretty happy about becoming a Hoya. Nothing changed with the program during that period. Shhhh... Don't mention the losses... Going back to the playing style he was told was going to be changed... No more recruits... the horrible press conferences... not explaining the whole mess...
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Mar 17, 2017 15:41:19 GMT -5
Who's saying style of play is why he changed his mind? I expressed to TC what I thought Waters was sold on in the beginning.. My feelings are he changed his mind because the program is a mess right now, what other reason is needed.. Translation - he changed his mind because between the three weeks of that interview on WTNH - sportzedge.com/2017/02/17/one-on-one-with-notre-dame-west-haven-star-tremont-waters/ , Casual Hoya and the students went scorched earth to try to get the coach fired. Yes, we lost games during that period. But no one announced a transfer - Copeland's transfer was announced in January, and here Waters is in mid-late February looking pretty happy about becoming a Hoya. Nothing changed with the program during that period. It doesn't give you pause that he gave the exact opposite answer to the same question? The quote I posted came from an October interview right after he committed.. Looks to me like he was freelancing.. I still would like to know what culture you were referring to earlier in this thread..
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TC
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Post by TC on Mar 17, 2017 15:42:57 GMT -5
The mess is that he started to believe that the Coach he committed to wouldn't be around.
We talk about accountability, but at what point does the fanbase and Casual Hoya start to take accountability that that they're definitely involved in this downturn actively?
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FLHoya
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Post by FLHoya on Mar 17, 2017 15:47:23 GMT -5
We talk about accountability, but at what point does the fanbase and Casual Hoya start to take accountability that that they're definitely involved in this downturn actively? If Tremont Waters starts documenting his lunch, then we'll talk.
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iowa80
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Post by iowa80 on Mar 17, 2017 15:50:39 GMT -5
The Waters thread in the Recruiting section now has a link to an interesting article on the "gentrification" of college sports in which Waters is featured prominently. Among the highlights was Waters' father's reverence for AI and Waters' desire to wear #3 here. My reaction was that, with this level of interest, any decommit was over something considerably more systemic than a blog and some loudmouth detractors.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Mar 17, 2017 15:51:21 GMT -5
The mess is that he started to believe that the Coach he committed to wouldn't be around. We talk about accountability, but at what point does the fanbase and Casual Hoya start to take accountability that that they're definitely involved in this downturn actively? In your hypothetical, the Administration should have said something, anything. It's not their fault. Only one person is responsible and it's not Hadar.
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