NCAA guard play and the Hoyas

[Deleted]

After thinking about the final four teams, I look at their guards. All 4 teams have great guard play especially Villanova and Oklahoma. Not only do they have great guard play, they have depth at that position. Syracuse won their game because of the performance of freshman guard Malachi Richardson. While North Carolina's Marcus Paige didn't have a great shooting game, he contributed in other ways. On the other hand we have exactly one true point guard (Tre). We have two shooting guards (if you include LJ Peak). We will be losing DSR and getting one 3 star point guard. For this reason, I am not particularly optimistic about next year.

What do you guys think?

[rockhoya]

Mar 28, 2016 9:36:14 GMT -5 @jerrylh said:

After thinking about the final four teams, I look at their guards. All 4 teams have great guard play especially Villanova and Oklahoma. Not only do they have great guard play, they have depth at that position. Syracuse won their game because of the performance of freshman guard Malachi Richardson. While North Carolina's Marcus Paige didn't have a great shooting game, he contributed in other ways. On the other hand we have exactly one true point guard (Tre). We have two shooting guards (if you include LJ Peak). We will be losing DSR and getting one 3 star point guard. For this reason, I am not particularly optimistic about next year.

What do you guys think?

Malachi plays the position as LJ....I think you hit the nail on the head in the first few sentences. It's that we don't have good guard play, not guards. Sure we don't have the depth some of them have, but it's because we have depth in other spots. My point: it's not like we don't have the talent to have good guard play, they just didn't play well. And for as bleak as you think things are, our guard ply is more respected from outsiders than it is on this board. I still think this is the most talented team III had, and that was part of the problem (and injuries to that talent). We just played no defense, and it was more a result of low defensive IQ rather than limitations

[Eurostar]

This past year we had a 4th year senior who was projected to be 1st team all big east as well as a sophomore who is projected to be an NBA player at guard.

All this talk about "we need this" or "we need that" is crazy. The one thing I notice about all these teams is that they play with HEART and INTENSITY. That is what we lacked all year. UVA didnt lose because they were worse than Syracuse. They lost because Cuse wanted it more. Same with all NDs last minute wins and all the other close victories in this tournament. We lost a lot of heart when Jabril left, and it shows. We dont need "better" players. We need to work harder and want it more than the other team.

[cosmopolitanhoya]

Mar 28, 2016 11:17:50 GMT -5 Eurostar said:

This past year we had a 4th year senior who was projected to be 1st team all big east as well as a sophomore who is projected to be an NBA player at guard.

All this talk about "we need this" or "we need that" is crazy. The one thing I notice about all these teams is that they play with HEART and INTENSITY. That is what we lacked all year. UVA didnt lose because they were worse than Syracuse. They lost because Cuse wanted it more. Same with all NDs last minute wins and all the other close victories in this tournament. We lost a lot of heart when Jabril left, and it shows. We dont need "better" players. We need to work harder and want it more than the other team.

100% agreed with this

How many NCAA wins did we get from the years we had All American duo backcourt + All Met player of the year in Freeman, Wright, and Clark? O and people were screaming about how unathletic our team was. The front court took all the blame.

Now that we got bunch of lanky and athletic players loaded on this team, it's about how we don't have elite guards so the backcourt has been taking all the blame.

Maybe in a few years we will have talented guards + the lanky wings we currently have. But if we don't win with that, then who else are we gonna blame?

[hoyasaxa2003]

Mar 28, 2016 11:17:50 GMT -5 Eurostar said:

This past year we had a 4th year senior who was projected to be 1st team all big east as well as a sophomore who is projected to be an NBA player at guard.

All this talk about "we need this" or "we need that" is crazy. The one thing I notice about all these teams is that they play with HEART and INTENSITY. That is what we lacked all year. UVA didnt lose because they were worse than Syracuse. They lost because Cuse wanted it more. Same with all NDs last minute wins and all the other close victories in this tournament. We lost a lot of heart when Jabril left, and it shows. We dont need "better" players. We need to work harder and want it more than the other team.

The idea that we would have been a great team if only for heart and intensity is almost insulting to the players. It implies that they just didn't give a damn, and that's why they lost. I watched every game, and I saw a team that scraped and clawed back into a number of games (winning Creighton, losing others like Butler). If the team didn't care, or if they didn't bring intensity, those runs would not have happened.

DSR was projected to be 1st team all Big East, but he didn't play that way. And Peak might be projected to be an NBA player at guard by some, and he certainly turned it on in conference season (he was clearly our best player at the end of the year), but that alone just wasn't enough.

UVA lost because they executed incredibly poorly at the end of the game. Again, we had a team with "heart" extraordinaire Trawick in 2014, and we missed the NCAA tournament. I know Trawick missed some games because of his jaw, and maybe if we didn't we would've barely made it, but he was still on the team that lost to FGCU in 2013 and DePaul at the BET in 2014. Sure, a great attitude and intensity are good things to have, but without execution (we we certainly did not have in the two games mentioned in the last sentence) HEART and INTENSITY aren't going to get you there.

(PS. How did UVA build their big 14 point lead? They had lots of HEART, I guess, and then lost it?)

[Eurostar]

There is clearly more to our struggles than just sheer will can fix. My point is that after watching this NCAA tournament, my takeaway wasn't that we lack good guard play. My takeaway was that the teams that hustled and wanted it more seemed to win.

That being said, many of these teams are at a certain level that was significantly above our level for most of the season. Having an offense that is creative and playing defense without constantly fouling were the two major things that kept us off that level. But I do think that most games this year and many close losses in years past, we were "out-worked" ie loose balls, running the offense and cutting with conviction, working hard on defense, etc. This should not be taken as an insult to the players. I think its up to the coaches to demand maximum effort from all players at all times if we want to be a top tier program.

[Deleted]

Mar 28, 2016 11:23:46 GMT -5 cosmopolitanhoya said:

Mar 28, 2016 11:17:50 GMT -5 Eurostar said:

This past year we had a 4th year senior who was projected to be 1st team all big east as well as a sophomore who is projected to be an NBA player at guard.

All this talk about "we need this" or "we need that" is crazy. The one thing I notice about all these teams is that they play with HEART and INTENSITY. That is what we lacked all year. UVA didnt lose because they were worse than Syracuse. They lost because Cuse wanted it more. Same with all NDs last minute wins and all the other close victories in this tournament. We lost a lot of heart when Jabril left, and it shows. We dont need "better" players. We need to work harder and want it more than the other team.

100% agreed with this

How many NCAA wins did we get from the years we had All American duo backcourt + All Met player of the year in Freeman, Wright, and Clark? O and people were screaming about how unathletic our team was. The front court took all the blame.

Now that we got bunch of lanky and athletic players loaded on this team, it's about how we don't have elite guards so the backcourt has been taking all the blame.

Maybe in a few years we will have talented guards + the lanky wings we currently have. But if we don't win with that, then who else are we gonna blame?

Exactly. I think you made my point. When we had Freeman and Wright, and during those years we were a power and had a Big East title, won the Big East Tournament. We had a high seed in the NCAA tournament. We just happened to run into Curry. During those years we beat some top teams and were highly ranked. Now we are dealing with a losing season. My point is simply to look at the teams in the final 4 and for the most part, these are guard oriented teams. DSR is a shooting guard and is just not a point. LJ is purely a shooting guard. When he drives, he almost never dishes. Tre is a 3 star and the guard coming in is a 3 star. In contrast Villanova's Brunson was a 5 star. A few weeks ago, I might have agreed with your position. However, after watching the NCAA's I have changed my mind.
Incidentally, what is the basis for your claim that Syracuse wanted it more than Virginia?? I also STRONGLY DISAGREE with anyone who states that the Hoyas didn't want it or weren't intense this year or didn't play with heart.

[Deleted]

Mar 28, 2016 11:17:50 GMT -5 Eurostar said:

This past year we had a 4th year senior who was projected to be 1st team all big east as well as a sophomore who is projected to be an NBA player at guard.

All this talk about "we need this" or "we need that" is crazy. The one thing I notice about all these teams is that they play with HEART and INTENSITY. That is what we lacked all year. UVA didnt lose because they were worse than Syracuse. They lost because Cuse wanted it more. Same with all NDs last minute wins and all the other close victories in this tournament. We lost a lot of heart when Jabril left, and it shows. We dont need "better" players. We need to work harder and want it more than the other team.

Saying someone lacks heart because they lose a basketball game is a comment that always makes me scratch my head...Agree our guys can play harder, heck every team can play harder even the great ones, but Effort isn't going to suddenly turn a bad team into a good one imo...

Virginia wanted it, they choked...

[the_way]

Great guard play is key come tournament time.

Big men get into foul trouble quickly.

Pops best teams not only had the big guys, but great guards (Duren, Floyd, Jackson, Gene Smith, Wingate, Charles Smith, Tillmon, Iverson, Page). The Reggie and the Miracles team didn't have a dominant big man.

It is also the quality of guards. Guys who can create their own shot off of the dribble. Good ballhandlers and balance level of play.

JTIII's teams usually have 1 maybe 2 decent ballhandlers at the most. The emphasized recruited talent are in centers and mostly focused on the 6-8/6-9 forwards. And this hurts the very few good guards we have here. Wright was the primary ballhandler his whole career here. Never really had a chance to develop other aspects of his game because he had to carry the load just bringing up the ball and running the offense. He was the only option. Freeman would help out, but again was more of 3 than a 2. DSR has been forced to go at it alone without a complimentary guard in the backourt this year, and his game has suffered. He and Starks were great team in the backcourt. If they had another

The final four and sweet sixteen teams had two NBA players in the frontcourt to offset this problem. Cook, Sapp, Wallace, and Rivers were great for the roles that they played. But if they were asked to do more without the talent in the frontcourt they played with, it would not have worked.


III has to get better players in the backcourt and create depth there.

[EtomicB]

Mar 28, 2016 13:24:48 GMT -5 @yaboynyp said:

Mar 28, 2016 11:17:50 GMT -5 Eurostar said:

This past year we had a 4th year senior who was projected to be 1st team all big east as well as a sophomore who is projected to be an NBA player at guard.

All this talk about "we need this" or "we need that" is crazy. The one thing I notice about all these teams is that they play with HEART and INTENSITY. That is what we lacked all year. UVA didnt lose because they were worse than Syracuse. They lost because Cuse wanted it more. Same with all NDs last minute wins and all the other close victories in this tournament. We lost a lot of heart when Jabril left, and it shows. We dont need "better" players. We need to work harder and want it more than the other team.

Saying someone lacks heart because they lose a basketball game is a comment that always makes me scratch my head...Agree our guys can play harder, heck every team can play harder even the great ones, but Effort isn't going to suddenly turn a bad team into a good one imo...

Virginia wanted it, they choked...

But more effort could turn a bad team into a better team though right?

I think that's what the OP is trying to say.. He's not saying Gtown would have been "great" or even "good" just better..

[Eurostar]

Cuse was getting to loose balls and rebounds, UVA wasnt. They also choked to the Syracuse press and made some bad decisions when they broke the press with their 2 upperclassmen all-conference guards.

Why did we lose to Radford, Monmouth, UNC-A and almost UNC-W at home this year? Was it lack of talent? I don't think so. We had more talent than many teams we played this year. The issue was game plan and execution. "Heart" maybe isn't the best word for our issues.

[beenaround]

Mar 28, 2016 14:39:10 GMT -5 the_way said:

Great guard play is key come tournament time.

Big men get into foul trouble quickly.

Pops best teams not only had the big guys, but great guards (Duren, Floyd, Jackson, Gene Smith, Wingate, Charles Smith, Tillmon, Iverson, Page). The Reggie and the Miracles team didn't have a dominant big man.

It is also the quality of guards. Guys who can create their own shot off of the dribble. Good ballhandlers and balance level of play.

JTIII's teams usually have 1 maybe 2 decent ballhandlers at the most. The emphasized recruited talent are in centers and mostly focused on the 6-8/6-9 forwards. And this hurts the very few good guards we have here. Wright was the primary ballhandler his whole career here. Never really had a chance to develop other aspects of his game because he had to carry the load just bringing up the ball and running the offense. He was the only option. Freeman would help out, but again was more of 3 than a 2. DSR has been forced to go at it alone without a complimentary guard in the backourt this year, and his game has suffered. He and Starks were great team in the backcourt. If they had another

The final four and sweet sixteen teams had two NBA players in the frontcourt to offset this problem. Cook, Sapp, Wallace, and Rivers were great for the roles that they played. But if they were asked to do more without the talent in the frontcourt they played with, it would not have worked.


III has to get better players in the backcourt and create depth there.

In fact, the Final Four team had 5 NBA guys in the froncourt, did they not...Summers, PE Jr and Macklin all played at least a little bit in the league.

[prhoya]

Mar 28, 2016 15:02:23 GMT -5 Eurostar said:

Cuse was getting to loose balls and rebounds, UVA wasnt. They also choked to the Syracuse press and made some bad decisions when they broke the press with their 2 upperclassmen all-conference guards.

Why did we lose to Radford, Monmouth, UNC-A and almost UNC-W at home this year? Was it lack of talent? I don't think so. We had more talent than many teams we played this year. The issue was game plan and execution. "Heart" maybe isn't the best word for our issues.

I believe Fox's Donnie Marshall put it best with: Pistachios! He also added leadership. While Rafferty mentioned that DSR let the game come to him, Donnie Marshall answered something like "maybe he needs to go get the game". Is that the cliched "heart" or "wanting it it more"? It's simply being aggressive, having cojones and showing leadership.

[beenaround]

I must say..watching Carolina, Nova and ND starting not one but two, "true" point guards was interesting to watch and really did create some smooth flowing offense.

[b52legend]

Bottom line is that you need either (i) a great TEAM or (ii) a transcendent player (e.g., Buddy Heild) with a good team around them. We notice good guard play when watching the tournament because in most offenses, those are the guys who have the ball in their hands the most. But look at the rebounding from UNC, which ND had no answer for. Last year in the tournament, Townes and Kaminsky were dominant. Villanova, despite not having a typical frontcourt, has really skilled big men who more than held their own on the glass and defensively.

Do you need good guards? Of course. You need good players at every position.

[aleutianhoya]

Mar 28, 2016 15:02:23 GMT -5 Eurostar said:

Cuse was getting to loose balls and rebounds, UVA wasnt. They also choked to the Syracuse press and made some bad decisions when they broke the press with their 2 upperclassmen all-conference guards.

Why did we lose to Radford, Monmouth, UNC-A and almost UNC-W at home this year? Was it lack of talent? I don't think so. We had more talent than many teams we played this year. The issue was game plan and execution. "Heart" maybe isn't the best word for our issues.

The press sped up Virginia, but it wasn't like Virginia had trouble with the actual press. In their first three possessions after Cuse put on the press, Virginia made a three, missed a contested layup, and made a layup. Then they had a turnover in the frontcourt after breaking the press. Then another. Seems pretty bad. But that's five possessions and five points. And no turnovers in the back court. Which, statistically, is average. And average from that point out should have been good enough.

We move on. Then a layup after beating the press. Then the turnover in the back court on that play where the ball got thrown off Brogdon out of bounds. Then a missed layup by Brogdon after aggressively beating the press. Then they missed a jumper in the frontcourt after beating the press and pulling it back out.

Overall? Seven points in nine possessions on the Cuse press. That's bad, but it's not horrifically bad. They only had one turnover in the back court. Their mistake, if there was one, was in not pulling the ball back out every time. But that's tough when you have a series of two on ones.

So, why did Cuse come back? Well, it's not talked about as much, but the Cuse went seven for seven (including two threes) with 4-4 from the line on those same nine possessions. And then scored on their next three (if you count Richardson following up his own miss to score as one possession). 20 points in 9 possessions. Basically double what they generally score on a per possession basis -- and against one of the nominally top defenses in America. If Cuse merely scores at an average clip, they're still down 10 or so with three minutes to play instead of the game being essentially tied.

Did the press give them some energy? For sure. Would Virginia have been better served by just pulling everything out after breaking it? Maybe, but it wasn't like they really were scoring much in the half-court during that stretch either, so it may have just drawn Cuse's comeback out further!

Did the Cuse get suddenly hot? Yes, absolutely. That's why they won.

My point simply is that it was far more a defensive meltdown than an offensive meltdown. Cuse didn't get a lot of easy baskets off turnovers and the press. They just suddenly got hot. Virginia had a fair number of turnovers, but they also got pretty good looks overall.

[the_way]

It is more difficult to "go get the game" this year than in years past. DSR's limitations as a player are on display this year when he tries to "go get the game". Rafferty is right in that DSR is best when he doesn't force this issue, doesn't force things to happen. But Marshall is right in that DSR has to force the issue since there aren't many other options to help. There isn't a luxury anymore. Since there was more pressure to carry the load running the offense and putting the team on his back, you saw more inconsistency this year and a slip in production. Not to say he lacked leadership or aggressiveness or guts. Its just that he might have hit his ceiling as a player by shouldering all of the load.

[Deleted]

Mar 28, 2016 14:43:23 GMT -5 EtomicB said:

Mar 28, 2016 13:24:48 GMT -5 @yaboynyp said:

Saying someone lacks heart because they lose a basketball game is a comment that always makes me scratch my head...Agree our guys can play harder, heck every team can play harder even the great ones, but Effort isn't going to suddenly turn a bad team into a good one imo...

Virginia wanted it, they choked...

But more effort could turn a bad team into a better team though right?

I think that's what the OP is trying to say.. He's not saying Gtown would have been "great" or even "good" just better..

Nah I get it and of course effort always helps especially on D and on the boards and that effects overall performance.. I've said a million times effort is a skill. But effort doesn't make Trey Mourning a better player than DSR even though it looks probably to most that he is giving more of an effort. So imo more complicated that that of course.

The suggestion that we were just as good as the other guys but we didn't try hard enough is a dubious one imo.. Effort helps around the margins and you can cay a lot of our games fell within the margin, but it's also hard to quantify as an observer. A lot of times imo your record just reflects who you are at the moment. We have some nice pieces but we we're not a good "TEAM" this year.

[Deleted]

Mar 28, 2016 15:35:40 GMT -5 the_way said:

It is more difficult to "go get the game" this year than in years past. DSR's limitations as a player are on display this year when he tries to "go get the game". Rafferty is right in that DSR is best when he doesn't force this issue, doesn't force things to happen. But Marshall is right in that DSR has to force the issue since there aren't many other options to help. There isn't a luxury anymore. Since there was more pressure to carry load running the offense and putting the team on his back, you saw more inconsistency this year and a slip in production. Not say he lacked leadership or aggressiveness or guts. Its just that he might have hit his ceiling as a player by shouldering all of the load.

Think you're on point imo.. Dsr is a good Robin but he's not a good Batman.

[aleutianhoya]

Mar 28, 2016 15:17:34 GMT -5 prhoya said:

Mar 28, 2016 15:02:23 GMT -5 Eurostar said:

Cuse was getting to loose balls and rebounds, UVA wasnt. They also choked to the Syracuse press and made some bad decisions when they broke the press with their 2 upperclassmen all-conference guards.

Why did we lose to Radford, Monmouth, UNC-A and almost UNC-W at home this year? Was it lack of talent? I don't think so. We had more talent than many teams we played this year. The issue was game plan and execution. "Heart" maybe isn't the best word for our issues.

I believe Fox's Donnie Marshall put it best with: Pistachios! He also added leadership. While Rafferty mentioned that DSR let the game come to him, Donnie Marshall answered something like "maybe he needs to go get the game". Is that the cliched "heart" or "wanting it it more"? It's simply being aggressive, having cojones and showing leadership.

I don't know what that means, PR. Does it mean Ike had too much "pistachios" (because he shot a ton and didn't make them)? We probably would have been more successful if he had shot less. Same with Tre.

If DSR was a guy that could consistently blow by his man (like a Buddy Hield) or was shooting an absurd percentage from three, then I would agree. But he wasn't this year! I think he (correctly) realized that the only way this team was going to succeed was if the Ikes of the world had big games. He wasn't going to score 25 every night and lead us to a win. There were games he tried and it didn't work.

So, what do you want him to do? Our fifth and sixth straight losses at the end of the year (at Marquette and at Nova) -- the final possible chances for us to get in the tournament. At Nova he was 1-7 (1-4 from three) in the first half. That's a lack of cojones? That's just a lack of making baskets! At Marquette? 3-9 in the first half. That's a lot of shots! And 7-17 in the game. (BTW: He also had 8 boards and 9 assists against only four turnovers in that Marquette game. If we win that game, we're lauding is all-around leadership in what would have been a temporarily season-continuing win.)