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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2016 10:54:29 GMT -5
Buddy Hield is a passable guard. Paige is an OK guard. (Notice that I said "guard" not point guard).
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Post by bicentennial on Mar 30, 2016 17:59:36 GMT -5
A lot of well thought out and well reasoned posts. However, I would like to go back to the question I posed. Looking at the guard play we have seen in the NCAA tourney, how much has our guard play (or lack thereof) contributed to our poor season?? A really talented guard can penetrate and then, depending on the situation, either pass off or finish. I am not sure we have a player on our roster who has those skills. LJ, almost never passes the once he penetrates. Fortunately, he is so talented, that he frequently can finish in spite of dribbling into a crowd. I would be interested in your view points on this. Really, Nova is the only team that is in the Final Four because of an advantage in point guard play. Teams led by Tyler Ulis, Melo Tremble, Kris Dunn, and other guards who are better penetrators than those in the Final Four were defended and beaten. I totally disagree with this point. Villanova is winning not just because of their guard play but also because they play as a team, because none of their players goes out and gives up on possessions and because they move the ball extremely well without turning the ball over. Moreover when they pass to someone wide open for 3 that person hits it more than 30% of the time. Some of those players are forwards and their center can be counted on to score a high percentage of the time when guarded one on one in the paint and if double teamed usually finds the open man. Also their first 3 off the bench play almost as well as the starting 5. Moreover, when needed they can guard and cut off drives instead of just allowing dribble penetration for scores of free throws.
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bmartin
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Post by bmartin on Mar 30, 2016 18:58:49 GMT -5
Buddy Hield is a passable guard. Paige is an OK guard. (Notice that I said "guard" not point guard). You didn't say point guard but all the discussion was about guard penetration, not about jump shooting. Hield has carried Oklahoma but not with the type of guard play described in this thread. Paige is not why UNC won. He didn't outplay Indiana's or Notre Dame's guards. My point stands that the teams that relied on penetrating guards all lost.
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bmartin
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Post by bmartin on Mar 30, 2016 19:04:24 GMT -5
Really, Nova is the only team that is in the Final Four because of an advantage in point guard play. Teams led by Tyler Ulis, Melo Tremble, Kris Dunn, and other guards who are better penetrators than those in the Final Four were defended and beaten. I totally disagree with this point. Villanova is winning not just because of their guard play but also because they play as a team, because none of their players goes out and gives up on possessions and because they move the ball extremely well without turning the ball over. Moreover when they pass to someone wide open for 3 that person hits it more than 30% of the time. Some of those players are forwards and their center can be counted on to score a high percentage of the time when guarded one on one in the paint and if double teamed usually finds the open man. Also their first 3 off the bench play almost as well as the starting 5. Moreover, when needed they can guard and cut off drives instead of just allowing dribble penetration for scores of free throws. Okay. I was making the point that point guard play was not the determining factor and that the best point guards all lost. I was being generous and giving guards credit for Nova mostly because they outplayed Kansas (9 turnovers to 16 was the main difference in the game). I don't disagree that Nova played well as a team.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Mar 30, 2016 22:15:34 GMT -5
For all the talk about Villanova's offense, they defend, and they defend well. Villanova has the 8th best defense nationally, UNC 22, Oklahoma 13, and Syracuse 16. There's no doubt that we would improve with better offensive execution, but our defense was ranked 90 this year. 2014 and 2005 were worse, but otherwise this is the worst defense on any JT3 team. It needs to be much, much, better next year if we want to have any chance of winning difficult games and going far into the tournament.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2016 6:59:20 GMT -5
Buddy Hield is a passable guard. Paige is an OK guard. (Notice that I said "guard" not point guard). You didn't say point guard but all the discussion was about guard penetration, not about jump shooting. Hield has carried Oklahoma but not with the type of guard play described in this thread. Paige is not why UNC won. He didn't outplay Indiana's or Notre Dame's guards. My point stands that the teams that relied on penetrating guards all lost. I don't agree at all. Of course here are numerous teams with excellent guards who didn't make it this far. What I am saying is that the teams that ARE here, are for the most part, here because of their guard play. They don't wow you with their bigs.
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Post by aleutianhoya on Mar 31, 2016 7:24:09 GMT -5
This is kind of silly, gentlemen, even for us. North Carolina DOES wow you with its bigs. They're here because they have the ability to use their bigs. They are at their best when they play inside out. And Syracuse doesn't really wow you with anything! But to the extent they have a positive skill on offense, it's that their bigs are exceptional offensive rebounders. So, that's certainly two teams that make significant use of their bigs. Certainly Villanova isn't there because of Ochefu, but he's a significant part of what they do. That is, even they play inside out whenever they can, despite the "guard heavy" offense they are known for.
In any event, there's lots of ways to win. But it's very hard to win if you can't get the ball in the lane somehow (penetration, back door cut, in the hands of a big), and make an appropriate aggressive scoring or passing move. We couldn't do that consistently this year. You can make up for it with exceptional three-point shooting, and we didn't have that either. All of these teams -- and virtually any good team -- has the ability to get into the lane somehow and do something positive.
I don't think the four teams in the Final Four are evidence one way or the other that penetrating guard play is underrated or overrated. Oklahoma and North Carolina have exceptional NBA lottery level talent. That's why they're here. Syracuse is here because, let's face it, they were very lucky. And Villanova is here because they're a very, very good all-around team.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2016 8:15:48 GMT -5
Let me respond. I have never said that these teams don't have really good bigs. North Carolina has great players at every position. However, when sports commentators talk about North Carolina, the first thing out of their mouths is "Marcus Paige." For Oklahoma, it is Buddy Hield. For Villanova it is Archidiacono and Hart, and for Syracuse is the Freshman Richardson.
The point I am making (and you may disagree), is that our failure this past year was due to subpar guard play. The way the game is played now, guard play is key. If I am right you are going to see that trend continue next year (especially with the loss of DSR even though this was a down year for him). I would like to be proven wrong, but if I am correct, I don't expect much improvement next year.
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seaweed
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Post by seaweed on Mar 31, 2016 8:43:23 GMT -5
However, when sports commentators talk about North Carolina, the first thing out of their mouths is "Marcus Paige." For Oklahoma, it is Buddy Hield. For Villanova it is Archidiacono and Hart, and for Syracuse is the Freshman Richardson. First thing out of most commentators' mouth wrt to 'cuse is defense, and it should be the first thing they say about Nova as well. I don't know Heild or Paige's games as well, but I don't think either gets scorched routinely. Our problems with guard play were more pronounced on the defensive end than they were on the offensive end. I say that knowing that we made a total of 11 good entry passes to the post all year and also knowing that DSR was an above average rebounder through much of his career. While harping on the offensive shortcomings of our guard-play is a tried and true procedure here, lock down defense is the factor separating the leading guards from all the offensively very talented guards out there.
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Post by aleutianhoya on Mar 31, 2016 8:57:50 GMT -5
Let me respond. I have never said that these teams don't have really good bigs. North Carolina has great players at every position. However, when sports commentators talk about North Carolina, the first thing out of their mouths is "Marcus Paige." For Oklahoma, it is Buddy Hield. For Villanova it is Archidiacono and Hart, and for Syracuse is the Freshman Richardson. The point I am making (and you may disagree), is that our failure this past year was due to subpar guard play. The way the game is played now, guard play is key. If I am right you are going to see that trend continue next year (especially with the loss of DSR even though this was a down year for him). I would like to be proven wrong, but if I am correct, I don't expect much improvement next year. When people talk about North Carolina, they talk about Brice Johnson. Using him more. How good he's playing. Etc. He's 29-46 in the NCAAT. Think about that! Sure, they talk about Paige, and his resurgence, but it's Johnson that is the key. And when people talk about Cuse, they talk about Roberson. His ability to anchor that defense. Rim protection. And of course his rebounding. Richardson was the offensive key last game, but he's not the story with Cuse. I'm not saying that guard play isn't crucial. Of course it is. But what is it about guard play that is crucial (other than competent ball-handling of course)? It's that those players (more than bigs) are guys that tend to hit threes, so they're more valuable in that sense given the importance of the three in today's game. And it's that those players tend to be the ones that can get into the lane for one reason or another. But none of those skills, really, is position-dependent. Thought experiment, Jerry: If everything else had been equal this year, except that Ike and DSR both shot 40% from three (instead of 27% and 33% respectively), how many more games do we win? A lot! More than enough to get into the NCAAs, and probably enough to get a reasonably high seed. Now, our lack of penetration ability limited DSR's ability to shoot much higher, because he was so closely guarded. But the vast majority of Ike's threes were open ones. And if Ike had made a bunch more threes? Presumably, he would have had a somewhat easier time penetrating -- since he would have been more closely guarded. Again, he wouldn't have been a plus penetrator by any stretch, but it would have led to him getting (or facilitating) an easy basket or two every game. And it's all cumulative...it leads to better looks for everyone. He's not a guard. I'd much rather have a guard that can penetrate -- I don't disagree. Indeed, I think we have one in LJ (though it'd be nice to have more). But I think there are lots of ways to be successful. We just weren't good at any of them!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2016 9:43:44 GMT -5
Thought experiment, Jerry: If everything else had been equal this year, except that Ike and DSR both shot 40% from three (instead of 27% and 33% respectively), how many more games do we win? A lot! More than enough to get into the NCAAs, and probably enough to get a reasonably high seed. Now, our lack of penetration ability limited DSR's ability to shoot much higher, because he was so closely guarded. But the vast majority of Ike's threes were open ones. And if Ike had made a bunch more threes? Presumably, he would have had a somewhat easier time penetrating -- since he would have been more closely guarded. Again, he wouldn't have been a plus penetrator by any stretch, but it would have led to him getting (or facilitating) an easy basket or two every game. And it's all cumulative...it leads to better looks for everyone. He's not a guard.
I'd much rather have a guard that can penetrate -- I don't disagree. Indeed, I think we have one in LJ (though it'd be nice to have more). But I think there are lots of ways to be successful. We just weren't good at any of them!
Fair question and comments. It is my position that we took very few uncontested 3 point shots because of lack of guard play. Most of our 3 point shots were contested. Hence a low percentage on the 3s. Anyway, I do hope I am wrong about this and we can bounce back next year
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Post by glidehoyas (Inactive) on Apr 2, 2016 16:13:31 GMT -5
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Post by glidehoyas (Inactive) on Apr 2, 2016 16:29:38 GMT -5
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Post by glidehoyas (Inactive) on Apr 2, 2016 16:30:41 GMT -5
The Hoyas missed Paul White's high basketball iq on the offensive and defensive end of the ball. He's a great point communicator as well. He's very vocal.
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Post by glidehoyas (Inactive) on Apr 2, 2016 16:32:40 GMT -5
Buddy Hield is a passable guard. Paige is an OK guard. (Notice that I said "guard" not point guard). You didn't say point guard but all the discussion was about guard penetration, not about jump shooting. Hield has carried Oklahoma but not with the type of guard play described in this thread. Paige is not why UNC won. He didn't outplay Indiana's or Notre Dame's guards. My point stands that the teams that relied on penetrating guards all lost. that's sounds ridiculous all guards that penetrated all lost. Nova has many guards all with high bball iq's they had many guards most teams that they've beaten had only 1 or two!
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Post by glidehoyas (Inactive) on Apr 2, 2016 16:34:23 GMT -5
Thought experiment, Jerry: If everything else had been equal this year, except that Ike and DSR both shot 40% from three (instead of 27% and 33% respectively), how many more games do we win? A lot! More than enough to get into the NCAAs, and probably enough to get a reasonably high seed. Now, our lack of penetration ability limited DSR's ability to shoot much higher, because he was so closely guarded. But the vast majority of Ike's threes were open ones. And if Ike had made a bunch more threes? Presumably, he would have had a somewhat easier time penetrating -- since he would have been more closely guarded. Again, he wouldn't have been a plus penetrator by any stretch, but it would have led to him getting (or facilitating) an easy basket or two every game. And it's all cumulative...it leads to better looks for everyone. He's not a guard. I'd much rather have a guard that can penetrate -- I don't disagree. Indeed, I think we have one in LJ (though it'd be nice to have more). But I think there are lots of ways to be successful. We just weren't good at any of them! Fair question and comments. It is my position that we took very few uncontested 3 point shots because of lack of guard play. Most of our 3 point shots were contested. Hence a low percentage on the 3s. Anyway, I do hope I am wrong about this and we can bounce back next year Decision making is the key.
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Post by glidehoyas (Inactive) on Apr 2, 2016 16:37:12 GMT -5
After thinking about the final four teams, I look at their guards. All 4 teams have great guard play especially Villanova and Oklahoma. Not only do they have great guard play, they have depth at that position. Syracuse won their game because of the performance of freshman guard Malachi Richardson. While North Carolina's Marcus Paige didn't have a great shooting game, he contributed in other ways. On the other hand we have exactly one true point guard (Tre). We have two shooting guards (if you include LJ Peak). We will be losing DSR and getting one 3 star point guard. For this reason, I am not particularly optimistic about next year. What do you guys think? Malachi plays the position as LJ....I think you hit the nail on the head in the first few sentences. It's that we don't have good guard play, not guards. Sure we don't have the depth some of them have, but it's because we have depth in other spots. My point: it's not like we don't have the talent to have good guard play, they just didn't play well. And for as bleak as you think things are, our guard ply is more respected from outsiders than it is on this board. I still think this is the most talented team III had, and that was part of the problem (and injuries to that talent). We just played no defense, and it was more a result of low defensive IQ rather than limitations If you don't have good point guard play you don't have good guards. Our guards didn't play well because they don't have point guard skills/decision making.
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Post by glidehoyas (Inactive) on Apr 2, 2016 16:39:37 GMT -5
This past year we had a 4th year senior who was projected to be 1st team all big east as well as a sophomore who is projected to be an NBA player at guard. All this talk about "we need this" or "we need that" is crazy. The one thing I notice about all these teams is that they play with HEART and INTENSITY. That is what we lacked all year. UVA didnt lose because they were worse than Syracuse. They lost because Cuse wanted it more. Same with all NDs last minute wins and all the other close victories in this tournament. We lost a lot of heart when Jabril left, and it shows. We dont need "better" players. We need to work harder and want it more than the other team. Good stuff, BUT we do need point guard/guards with high bball iq's aka NOVA ... the Hoyas play with heart when they are consistent playing the right way, but do not play consistently enough due to lack of point guard play.
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Post by glidehoyas (Inactive) on Apr 2, 2016 16:40:54 GMT -5
This past year we had a 4th year senior who was projected to be 1st team all big east as well as a sophomore who is projected to be an NBA player at guard.
All this talk about "we need this" or "we need that" is crazy. The one thing I notice about all these teams is that they play with HEART and INTENSITY. That is what we lacked all year. UVA didnt lose because they were worse than Syracuse. They lost because Cuse wanted it more. Same with all NDs last minute wins and all the other close victories in this tournament. We lost a lot of heart when Jabril left, and it shows. We dont need "better" players. We need to work harder and want it more than the other team. 100% agreed with this How many NCAA wins did we get from the years we had All American duo backcourt + All Met player of the year in Freeman, Wright, and Clark? O and people were screaming about how unathletic our team was. The front court took all the blame. Now that we got bunch of lanky and athletic players loaded on this team, it's about how we don't have elite guards so the backcourt has been taking all the blame. Maybe in a few years we will have talented guards + the lanky wings we currently have. But if we don't win with that, then who else are we gonna blame? I been saying this!!!
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Post by glidehoyas (Inactive) on Apr 2, 2016 16:42:40 GMT -5
This past year we had a 4th year senior who was projected to be 1st team all big east as well as a sophomore who is projected to be an NBA player at guard. All this talk about "we need this" or "we need that" is crazy. The one thing I notice about all these teams is that they play with HEART and INTENSITY. That is what we lacked all year. UVA didnt lose because they were worse than Syracuse. They lost because Cuse wanted it more. Same with all NDs last minute wins and all the other close victories in this tournament. We lost a lot of heart when Jabril left, and it shows. We dont need "better" players. We need to work harder and want it more than the other team. The idea that we would have been a great team if only for heart and intensity is almost insulting to the players. It implies that they just didn't give a damn, and that's why they lost. I watched every game, and I saw a team that scraped and clawed back into a number of games (winning Creighton, losing others like Butler). If the team didn't care, or if they didn't bring intensity, those runs would not have happened. DSR was projected to be 1st team all Big East, but he didn't play that way. And Peak might be projected to be an NBA player at guard by some, and he certainly turned it on in conference season (he was clearly our best player at the end of the year), but that alone just wasn't enough. UVA lost because they executed incredibly poorly at the end of the game. Again, we had a team with "heart" extraordinaire Trawick in 2014, and we missed the NCAA tournament. I know Trawick missed some games because of his jaw, and maybe if we didn't we would've barely made it, but he was still on the team that lost to FGCU in 2013 and DePaul at the BET in 2014. Sure, a great attitude and intensity are good things to have, but without execution (we we certainly did not have in the two games mentioned in the last sentence) HEART and INTENSITY aren't going to get you there. (PS. How did UVA build their big 14 point lead? They had lots of HEART, I guess, and then lost it?) I agree!
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