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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Mar 28, 2016 16:04:01 GMT -5
]In fact, the Final Four team had 5 NBA guys in the froncourt, did they not...Summers, PE Jr and Macklin all played at least a little bit in the league. Yes. The Final Four Team was really, really, good. Obviously, Green and Hibbert were excellent, and Summers, Patrick Ewing Jr. and Macklin all played a little in the NBA. Since then, we have not been close to having a team with 5 guys who could touch the NBA. Sure, people "project" that certain guys will make it to the NBA, but these fan projections are often overly optimistic. Another way to look at it: in 2007, we had two lotto picks on our team, with a supporting cast of three other lower level NBA guys, and very solid college players (for example, Wallace). That was was a hugely talented team. We haven't had a team that talented since. The Wright/Freeman/Monroe team of 2010 was probably closest. The fact is, for all the "talent" that is discussed here, we simply don't have the high level talent to compete with other blue bloods on an annual basis. I think we can compete with them sometimes, but it really depends on our guys developing and punching above their level. Some years, like in 2012, it happens with guys like Sims, or in 2013 it happened with Porter. Other years, like this season, it simply did not happen.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Mar 28, 2016 17:14:40 GMT -5
]In fact, the Final Four team had 5 NBA guys in the froncourt, did they not...Summers, PE Jr and Macklin all played at least a little bit in the league. Yes. The Final Four Team was really, really, good. Obviously, Green and Hibbert were excellent, and Summers, Patrick Ewing Jr. and Macklin all played a little in the NBA. Since then, we have not been close to having a team with 5 guys who could touch the NBA. Sure, people "project" that certain guys will make it to the NBA, but these fan projections are often overly optimistic. Another way to look at it: in 2007, we had two lotto picks on our team, with a supporting cast of three other lower level NBA guys, and very solid college players (for example, Wallace). That was was a hugely talented team. We haven't had a team that talented since. The Wright/Freeman/Monroe team of 2010 was probably closest. The fact is, for all the "talent" that is discussed here, we simply don't have the high level talent to compete with other blue bloods on an annual basis. I think we can compete with them sometimes, but it really depends on our guys developing and punching above their level. Some years, like in 2012, it happens with guys like Sims, or in 2013 it happened with Porter. Other years, like this season, it simply did not happen. Two lotto picks in 2007? Who?
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Mar 28, 2016 17:17:39 GMT -5
Green and Hibbert. If he left Hibbert would have been a lotto pick. He actually probably would've gone higher in 2007 than he did in 2008 had he left.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Mar 28, 2016 17:18:52 GMT -5
Bottom line is that you need either (i) a great TEAM or (ii) a transcendent player (e.g., Buddy Heild) with a good team around them. We notice good guard play when watching the tournament because in most offenses, those are the guys who have the ball in their hands the most. But look at the rebounding from UNC, which ND had no answer for. Last year in the tournament, Townes and Kaminsky were dominant. Villanova, despite not having a typical frontcourt, has really skilled big men who more than held their own on the glass and defensively. Do you need good guards? Of course. You need good players at every position. That's a great recipe for success. But, in the case of Villanova, who is that transcendent player? There's another recipe for success in March and that is strong play and leadership by your upperclassmen and good overall balance. Wright has done a great job of continously feeding that balance and leadership.
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Bigs"R"Us
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on Mar 28, 2016 17:38:02 GMT -5
I think it's difficult to point to a specific area we needed to improve to get us over-the-hump, as our issues were numerous. As far as guard play goes, I would argue that we had no real playmaker on the team to facilitate the offense. The basketball we were playing at the end of this season does not resemble what I am seeing in the tournament.
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Post by aleutianhoya on Mar 28, 2016 17:43:50 GMT -5
Bottom line is that you need either (i) a great TEAM or (ii) a transcendent player (e.g., Buddy Heild) with a good team around them. We notice good guard play when watching the tournament because in most offenses, those are the guys who have the ball in their hands the most. But look at the rebounding from UNC, which ND had no answer for. Last year in the tournament, Townes and Kaminsky were dominant. Villanova, despite not having a typical frontcourt, has really skilled big men who more than held their own on the glass and defensively. Do you need good guards? Of course. You need good players at every position. That's a great recipe for success. But, in the case of Villanova, who is that transcendent player? There's another recipe for success in March and that is strong play and leadership by your upperclassmen and good overall balance. Wright has done a great job of continously feeding that balance and leadership. Villanova is that (i) option. They're a great team. They have good players all over. Five guys average 23 minutes or more (about 70% of all minutes) and all five average 10 or more points per game. None averages more turnovers than assists. Four of the five (all but Ochefu) shoot threes at 35% or better. Four of the five shoot 2s at 50% or better (and Arch is at 49%). All but Ochefu shoot free throws at 75% or better. That's just on offense.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Mar 28, 2016 17:52:13 GMT -5
Green and Hibbert. If he left Hibbert would have been a lotto pick. He actually probably would've gone higher in 2007 than he did in 2008 had he left. Oh, so he's a lottery pick even though he wasn't actually picked in the lottery. Understood.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Mar 28, 2016 18:17:47 GMT -5
Green and Hibbert. If he left Hibbert would have been a lotto pick. He actually probably would've gone higher in 2007 than he did in 2008 had he left. Oh, so he's a lottery pick even though he wasn't actually picked in the lottery. Understood. So he was drafted 17. Big whoop. The point is just as valid - Green and Hibbert were elite college players who have had good NBA careers. We have not had than since 2007, so it shouldn't surprise anybody we haven't had that level of success.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Mar 28, 2016 18:31:55 GMT -5
That's a great recipe for success. But, in the case of Villanova, who is that transcendent player? There's another recipe for success in March and that is strong play and leadership by your upperclassmen and good overall balance. Wright has done a great job of continously feeding that balance and leadership. Villanova is that (i) option. They're a great team. They have good players all over. Five guys average 23 minutes or more (about 70% of all minutes) and all five average 10 or more points per game. None averages more turnovers than assists. Four of the five (all but Ochefu) shoot threes at 35% or better. Four of the five shoot 2s at 50% or better (and Arch is at 49%). All but Ochefu shoot free throws at 75% or better. That's just on offense. Strong play and leadership by their upperclassmen and good overall balance... Nice 2016 recruits so far...
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Mar 28, 2016 19:02:45 GMT -5
But more effort could turn a bad team into a better team though right? I think that's what the OP is trying to say.. He's not saying Gtown would have been "great" or even "good" just better.. Nah I get it and of course effort always helps especially on D and on the boards and that effects overall performance.. I've said a million times effort is a skill. But effort doesn't make Trey Mourning a better player than DSR even though it looks probably to most that he is giving more of an effort. So imo more complicated that that of course. The suggestion that we were just as good as the other guys but we didn't try hard enough is a dubious one imo.. Effort helps around the margins and you can cay a lot of our games fell within the margin, but it's also hard to quantify as an observer. A lot of times imo your record just reflects who you are at the moment. We have some nice pieces but we we're not a good "TEAM" this year. You're right when you say effort won't make Trey a better player than DSR but it could close the gap some.. Effort alone wouldn't have made Gtown as good as Nova or Xavier or SH or Prov or Butler for that matter but I beleive it could have made them a bubble team or an NIT team.. The fact that Gtown finished below .500 still boggles my mind! Gtown was the worst of the supposed solid programs in the league.. smh.. I agree with you that this wasn't a good TEAM at all.. Absolutely zero cohesiveness.. Scary part is if LJ was the best player on the team the 2nd half of the year then that would've made DSR "Robin" but it didn't change a thing as far as winning goes..
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eagle54
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Post by eagle54 on Mar 28, 2016 19:48:59 GMT -5
Green and Hibbert. If he left Hibbert would have been a lotto pick. He actually probably would've gone higher in 2007 than he did in 2008 had he left. Oh, so he's a lottery pick even though he wasn't actually picked in the lottery. Understood. KC, don't bother arguing with this guy. We have had our differences but I'm just telling you to avoid the trap. He's actually the guy arguing the ultra optimism in the sea of despair that our program currently sits. Robin Hood of antagonists. As far as guard play goes I think that's where we have fallen the most. Since John Wallace we have always had two solid guards that seemed dependable ball handle, control the offense, shoot the three when needed (not lights out) and set the table for everyone else. This team had wing players with athleticism but not the guard play to bring it out especially with the way they played.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2016 20:21:04 GMT -5
Nah I get it and of course effort always helps especially on D and on the boards and that effects overall performance.. I've said a million times effort is a skill. But effort doesn't make Trey Mourning a better player than DSR even though it looks probably to most that he is giving more of an effort. So imo more complicated that that of course. The suggestion that we were just as good as the other guys but we didn't try hard enough is a dubious one imo.. Effort helps around the margins and you can cay a lot of our games fell within the margin, but it's also hard to quantify as an observer. A lot of times imo your record just reflects who you are at the moment. We have some nice pieces but we we're not a good "TEAM" this year. You're right when you say effort won't make Trey a better player than DSR but it could close the gap some.. Effort alone wouldn't have made Gtown as good as Nova or Xavier or SH or Prov or Butler for that matter but I beleive it could have made them a bubble team or an NIT team.. The fact that Gtown finished below .500 still boggles my mind! Gtown was the worst of the supposed solid programs in the league.. smh.. I agree with you that this wasn't a good TEAM at all.. Absolutely zero cohesiveness.. Scary part is if LJ was the best player on the team the 2nd half of the year then that would've made DSR "Robin" but it didn't change a thing as far as winning goes.. Yeah I mean I thought the guys kept fighting they just didnt win especially in BE play... The record is what we are.. 5 minute scoring droughts dont happen because lack of effort thats usually a result of poor execution.... Not scary imo.. offense was set up to go through Dsr and LJ was still coming off the bench. Batman doesn't come off the bench imo.. The end if LJs soph season felt like the end of Ottos freshman season to me. Think he's set up for a big year
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Mar 28, 2016 20:42:30 GMT -5
Oh, so he's a lottery pick even though he wasn't actually picked in the lottery. Understood. KC, don't bother arguing with this guy. We have had our differences but I'm just telling you to avoid the trap. He's actually the guy arguing the ultra optimism in the sea of despair that our program currently sits. Robin Hood of antagonists. As far as guard play goes I think that's where we have fallen the most. Since John Wallace we have always had two solid guards that seemed dependable ball handle, control the offense, shoot the three when needed (not lights out) and set the table for everyone else. This team had wing players with athleticism but not the guard play to bring it out especially with the way they played. I am not sure what got into the HoyaTalk water today. That said, do you disagree that it wouldn't help to have two high quality guys like Green and Hibbert on our team? KC didn't even argue with my point. He just pointed out that Roy Hibbert wasn't a lotto pick in 2008. Fair enough, but the fact that Hibbert made the All Star team one season and had some very good NBA seasons remains. I am not sure why some people cannot handle criticism and opposing viewpoints without resorting to insults, telling people how to post on HoyaTalk, and suggesting that people shouldn't post at all. The fact that you are totally ignoring my point (i.e., that the 2007 team was super talented because it had two first round NBA players, something Georgetown has never had otherwise undr JT3) really undermines your attempt to insult. The only reason I might appear to be overly optimistic is because so many of you are so negative all the time. But, if you read what I've written, even recently, I am not an apologist. The only main difference we really have had is the coaching situation. That's it.
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eagle54
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Post by eagle54 on Mar 28, 2016 20:52:59 GMT -5
KC, don't bother arguing with this guy. We have had our differences but I'm just telling you to avoid the trap. He's actually the guy arguing the ultra optimism in the sea of despair that our program currently sits. Robin Hood of antagonists. As far as guard play goes I think that's where we have fallen the most. Since John Wallace we have always had two solid guards that seemed dependable ball handle, control the offense, shoot the three when needed (not lights out) and set the table for everyone else. This team had wing players with athleticism but not the guard play to bring it out especially with the way they played. I am not sure what got into the HoyaTalk water today. That said, do you disagree that it wouldn't help to have two high quality guys like Green and Hibbert on our team? KC didn't even argue with my point. He just pointed out that Roy Hibbert wasn't a lotto pick in 2008. Fair enough, but the fact that Hibbert made the All Star team one season and had some very good NBA seasons remains. I am not sure why some people cannot handle criticism and opposing viewpoints without resorting to insults, telling people how to post on HoyaTalk, and suggesting that people shouldn't post at all. The fact that you are totally ignoring my point (i.e., that the 2007 team was super talented because it had two first round NBA players, something Georgetown has never had otherwise undr JT3) really undermines your attempt to insult. The only reason I might appear to be overly optimistic is because so many of you are so negative all the time. But, if you read what I've written, even recently, I am not an apologist. The only main difference we really have had is the coaching situation. That's it. It's not relevant and you are running in circles. You are talking about two players from 2007 and how they were more talented than we are now? I won't argue the 2007 team was more talented and as was mentioned they were the prior regimes recruits that gave our current coach his start. Not trying to insult just try to have a point. Even your post there makes no sense from start to finish. "The only main difference we really have had is the coaching situation." Seems to be the same coach to me? One that earlier inherited great recruits and made a Final 4 and now the same one that can't put it together. Stop talking in circles.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Mar 28, 2016 21:03:06 GMT -5
You're right when you say effort won't make Trey a better player than DSR but it could close the gap some.. Effort alone wouldn't have made Gtown as good as Nova or Xavier or SH or Prov or Butler for that matter but I beleive it could have made them a bubble team or an NIT team.. The fact that Gtown finished below .500 still boggles my mind! Gtown was the worst of the supposed solid programs in the league.. smh.. I agree with you that this wasn't a good TEAM at all.. Absolutely zero cohesiveness.. Scary part is if LJ was the best player on the team the 2nd half of the year then that would've made DSR "Robin" but it didn't change a thing as far as winning goes.. Yeah I mean I thought the guys kept fighting they just didnt win especially in BE play... The record is what we are.. 5 minute scoring droughts dont happen because lack of effort thats usually a result of poor execution.... Not scary imo.. offense was set up to go through Dsr and LJ was still coming off the bench. Batman doesn't come off the bench imo.. The end if LJs soph season felt like the end of Ottos freshman season to me. Think he's set up for a big year I'll give you the scoring droughts but giving up 45+ points in a half which they did a lot late in the season indicates some lack of effort in my view.. Agree on LJ but for the team to be successful others need to join him, coaching staff too..
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Mar 28, 2016 21:09:07 GMT -5
I am not sure what got into the HoyaTalk water today. That said, do you disagree that it wouldn't help to have two high quality guys like Green and Hibbert on our team? KC didn't even argue with my point. He just pointed out that Roy Hibbert wasn't a lotto pick in 2008. Fair enough, but the fact that Hibbert made the All Star team one season and had some very good NBA seasons remains. I am not sure why some people cannot handle criticism and opposing viewpoints without resorting to insults, telling people how to post on HoyaTalk, and suggesting that people shouldn't post at all. The fact that you are totally ignoring my point (i.e., that the 2007 team was super talented because it had two first round NBA players, something Georgetown has never had otherwise undr JT3) really undermines your attempt to insult. The only reason I might appear to be overly optimistic is because so many of you are so negative all the time. But, if you read what I've written, even recently, I am not an apologist. The only main difference we really have had is the coaching situation. That's it. It's not relevant and you are running in circles. You are talking about two players from 2007 and how they were more talented than we are now? I won't argue the 2007 team was more talented and as was mentioned they were the prior regimes recruits that gave our current coach his start. Not trying to insult just try to have a point. Even your post there makes no sense from start to finish. "The only main difference we really have had is the coaching situation." Seems to be the same coach to me? One that earlier inherited great recruits and made a Final 4 and now the same one that can't put it together. Stop talking in circles. I don't buy that "inherited" recruits stiff Eagle.. Neither Green or Hibbert played a second for Coach Esh so in my eyes they're JT3's guys..
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Post by cosmopolitanhoya on Mar 28, 2016 21:25:21 GMT -5
100% agreed with this How many NCAA wins did we get from the years we had All American duo backcourt + All Met player of the year in Freeman, Wright, and Clark? O and people were screaming about how unathletic our team was. The front court took all the blame. Now that we got bunch of lanky and athletic players loaded on this team, it's about how we don't have elite guards so the backcourt has been taking all the blame. Maybe in a few years we will have talented guards + the lanky wings we currently have. But if we don't win with that, then who else are we gonna blame? Exactly. I think you made my point. When we had Freeman and Wright, and during those years we were a power and had a Big East title, won the Big East Tournament. We had a high seed in the NCAA tournament. We just happened to run into Curry. During those years we beat some top teams and were highly ranked. Now we are dealing with a losing season. My point is simply to look at the teams in the final 4 and for the most part, these are guard oriented teams. DSR is a shooting guard and is just not a point. LJ is purely a shooting guard. When he drives, he almost never dishes. Tre is a 3 star and the guard coming in is a 3 star. In contrast Villanova's Brunson was a 5 star. A few weeks ago, I might have agreed with your position. However, after watching the NCAA's I have changed my mind. Incidentally, what is the basis for your claim that Syracuse wanted it more than Virginia?? I also STRONGLY DISAGREE with anyone who states that the Hoyas didn't want it or weren't intense this year or didn't play with heart. It was more than just Curry and Davidson. The results during those 5 years stretch were: Davidson, NIT first round, Ohio, VCU (and please don't even bring up Chris' broken hand there, he STILL played for us that game, and even if VCU reached FF that year, we had far superior talent to win that game), and was it another NIT or first round exit? Ever since those 3 recruits, JT3 wasn't able to recruit players at that caliber coming out of high school. Sure, DSR has his place in GU history with his production and Markel was a pretty good guard that developed each year, but we failed to recruit any players at the rank of Wright/Freeman/Clark in backcourt. And with the resurgence of Villanova, UVA, and UMD and the demise of our program, it will be even harder to recruit guards like Lykes or any other top tier locl guards. But come on, we cannot blame this on backcourt forever. Are DSR and Tre really THAT MUCH below the talents of Syracuse and Villanova? Do you think if the guards from Syracuse and Villanova are playing for us instead of DSR and Tre, we would have at least made Sweeet 16?
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Mar 28, 2016 22:02:10 GMT -5
I am not sure what got into the HoyaTalk water today. That said, do you disagree that it wouldn't help to have two high quality guys like Green and Hibbert on our team? KC didn't even argue with my point. He just pointed out that Roy Hibbert wasn't a lotto pick in 2008. Fair enough, but the fact that Hibbert made the All Star team one season and had some very good NBA seasons remains. I am not sure why some people cannot handle criticism and opposing viewpoints without resorting to insults, telling people how to post on HoyaTalk, and suggesting that people shouldn't post at all. The fact that you are totally ignoring my point (i.e., that the 2007 team was super talented because it had two first round NBA players, something Georgetown has never had otherwise undr JT3) really undermines your attempt to insult. The only reason I might appear to be overly optimistic is because so many of you are so negative all the time. But, if you read what I've written, even recently, I am not an apologist. The only main difference we really have had is the coaching situation. That's it. It's not relevant and you are running in circles. You are talking about two players from 2007 and how they were more talented than we are now? I won't argue the 2007 team was more talented and as was mentioned they were the prior regimes recruits that gave our current coach his start. Not trying to insult just try to have a point. Even your post there makes no sense from start to finish. "The only main difference we really have had is the coaching situation." Seems to be the same coach to me? One that earlier inherited great recruits and made a Final 4 and now the same one that can't put it together. Stop talking in circles. I think you're getting confused, so, let me be clear: (1) My main point was that you win with talent. The Final Four 2007 team featuring Jeff Green, Roy Hibbert, Dajuan Summers, Macklin, and Patrick Ewing had 5 NBA players. One of them, Jeff Green, was a lotto pick, and has had a very solid NBA career (most guys don't last this long). Roy Hibbert left in 2008, and was drafted 17. I was wrong and he was not a lotto pick. But, Roy Hibbert has also had a successful NBA career, including two appearances in the All Star game. (2) Talent generally wins, and we clearly had it in 2007. Not only did we have the 5 NBA players above, but we had Wallace who was an excellent guard, as well as other good supporting players. (3) Since 2007, we have never had a team with that level of talent. The only other players who have reached similar levels in the NBA are Greg Monroe and Otto Porter. Monroe played with Sims before he turned it around. Porter played a season with Hollis Thompson. And those teams, especially the 2013 team, had fairly weak supporting players. That's really all I am saying. Do I think the 2015-2016 Hoyas were as talented as the 2007 team? Absolutely not. Will 5 guys from that roster ever sniff the NBA, never mind being an All Star? Hey, I would love it if that happened, but it's looking unlikely at the moment. When I said, "the only main difference we really have had is the coaching," I mean whether we should get a new coach. Clearly, we have had significant disagreements there. But, I think we both agree that this season was unacceptable and we need to get better.
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Mar 28, 2016 22:06:57 GMT -5
KC, don't bother arguing with this guy. We have had our differences but I'm just telling you to avoid the trap. He's actually the guy arguing the ultra optimism in the sea of despair that our program currently sits. Robin Hood of antagonists. As far as guard play goes I think that's where we have fallen the most. Since John Wallace we have always had two solid guards that seemed dependable ball handle, control the offense, shoot the three when needed (not lights out) and set the table for everyone else. This team had wing players with athleticism but not the guard play to bring it out especially with the way they played. I am not sure what got into the HoyaTalk water today. That said, do you disagree that it wouldn't help to have two high quality guys like Green and Hibbert on our team? KC didn't even argue with my point. He just pointed out that Roy Hibbert wasn't a lotto pick in 2008. Fair enough, but the fact that Hibbert made the All Star team one season and had some very good NBA seasons remains. I am not sure why some people cannot handle criticism and opposing viewpoints without resorting to insults, telling people how to post on HoyaTalk, and suggesting that people shouldn't post at all. The fact that you are totally ignoring my point (i.e., that the 2007 team was super talented because it had two first round NBA players, something Georgetown has never had otherwise undr JT3) really undermines your attempt to insult. The only reason I might appear to be overly optimistic is because so many of you are so negative all the time. But, if you read what I've written, even recently, I am not an apologist. The only main difference we really have had is the coaching situation. That's it. Maybe it's because your posts aren't remaining objective. Yeah there weren't two players drafted in the first round, but if you don't think there was talent on the team Otto's freshman year than I don't know what to tell you. Sure Roy had a good season or two. (One postseason?) but he's been hot garbage for years so no need to act like he's some untouchable talent. Same goes for Jeff. He was immensely talented and great for us, but Otto is going to have a more productive pro and Henry was also on that team, as was Hollis (been pretty productive in the NBA despite not much chatter on here about him), Jason was first team All-BE, Whitt is an NBA talent as well and will make his was onto a roster sooner rather than later. Which is remarkable considering his character and injury concerns. Our problem isn't a lack of talent. Look at that squad UVA rolled out all year, Cuse's top 7. Fact is, they did much more with less.
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SaxaCD
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Post by SaxaCD on Mar 28, 2016 22:19:31 GMT -5
I am not sure what got into the HoyaTalk water today. That said, do you disagree that it wouldn't help to have two high quality guys like Green and Hibbert on our team? KC didn't even argue with my point. He just pointed out that Roy Hibbert wasn't a lotto pick in 2008. Fair enough, but the fact that Hibbert made the All Star team one season and had some very good NBA seasons remains. I am not sure why some people cannot handle criticism and opposing viewpoints without resorting to insults, telling people how to post on HoyaTalk, and suggesting that people shouldn't post at all. The fact that you are totally ignoring my point (i.e., that the 2007 team was super talented because it had two first round NBA players, something Georgetown has never had otherwise undr JT3) really undermines your attempt to insult. The only reason I might appear to be overly optimistic is because so many of you are so negative all the time. But, if you read what I've written, even recently, I am not an apologist. The only main difference we really have had is the coaching situation. That's it. Maybe it's because your posts aren't remaining objective. Yeah there weren't two players drafted in the first round, but if you don't think there was talent on the team Otto's freshman year than I don't know what to tell you. Sure Roy had a good season or two. (One postseason?) but he's been hot garbage for years so no need to act like he's some untouchable talent. Same goes for Jeff. He was immensely talented and great for us, but Otto is going to have a more productive pro and Henry was also on that team, as was Hollis (been pretty productive in the NBA despite not much chatter on here about him), Jason was first team All-BE, Whitt is an NBA talent as well and will make his was onto a roster sooner rather than later. Which is remarkable considering his character and injury concerns. Our problem isn't a lack of talent. Look at that squad UVA rolled out all year, Cuse's top 7. Fact is, they did much more with less. Problem wasn't talent it was teamwork and communication. ESPECIALLY communication on defense.
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