kghoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,998
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Post by kghoya on Jan 15, 2016 0:15:55 GMT -5
I say we split with Nova in the regular season. That's how these will go regardless of talent. I will say I can't stand Nova. They are our closest comparable program in the conference though I think we have the advantages and yet they are well ahead of us. That's where I question what we are doing. No way they should be a superior program but they have been for last several years though with the same limited success in the tournament which just may mean our conference isn't that good. I'm torn anymore because I feel I can't just hate a Nova program or other BE rivals like I used to. I almost need to have them have success in the post season so we can validate this conference which is still tenuous. I keep feeling like we as Georgetown who should be the pillar of this conference aren't holding up our end to support this new BE that doesn't get the attention by the major media. I know I'll be discounted but the BE is fading away here. +1
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SaxaCD
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,402
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Post by SaxaCD on Jan 15, 2016 0:18:23 GMT -5
I say we split with Nova in the regular season. That's how these will go regardless of talent. I will say I can't stand Nova. They are our closest comparable program in the conference though I think we have the advantages and yet they are well ahead of us. That's where I question what we are doing. No way they should be a superior program but they have been for last several years though with the same limited success in the tournament which just may mean our conference isn't that good. I'm torn anymore because I feel I can't just hate a Nova program or other BE rivals like I used to. I almost need to have them have success in the post season so we can validate this conference which is still tenuous. I keep feeling like we as Georgetown who should be the pillar of this conference aren't holding up our end to support this new BE that doesn't get the attention by the major media. I know I'll be discounted but the BE is fading away here. +1 -1
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eagle54
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,471
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Post by eagle54 on Jan 15, 2016 0:25:46 GMT -5
-1 for head in the sand? I like that approach, you may be popular here.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 15, 2016 1:15:25 GMT -5
eagle54, you say: "I know I'll be discounted but the BE is fading away here." First, the one way to evaluate that is - fading away compared to what? It implies that the Big East was once better, and now is less better. Is the Big East at the level it was in 2013 and the years immediately preceding? No, but that will never be the case. That was probably the best basketball conference ever; that will be hard to ever equal in the future.
The current Big East has existed since 2013-2014. This is only the third season. So, it's really hard to say. But let's see. Based on KenPom ratings:
2013: [Old] Big East was ranked 2nd behind the Big 10. 8 teams in the tournament (50%). 2014: Big East was the 5th best conference, behind Big Ten, Big 12, ACC, and the PAC 12 (barely ahead of the Big East). 4 teams in the tournament (40%). 2015: Big East was ranked the third best conference behind the Big 12 and ACC. 6 teams made the tournament. (60%). 2016: The Big East is the fourth best conference behind the Big 12, ACC, and PAC 12. That said, the Big East and PAC 12 are so close they could easily flip. Impossible to know, but anywhere from 4-6 teams will likely make the tournament.
As I said, in actual tournament success, the Big East hasn't been great but we've only existed for 2 years. This year, I think the Big East is really nicely positioned for Sweet 16+.
Regardless, in quality, we are easily among the major conferences, and not even remotely close to the mid-majors. That's just simply not "fading" unless you compare it the football version of the conference.
The "new" Big East hasn't really shown much "fading" since it's existed. Has it been perfect? No. The conference hasn't had much NCAA success.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Jan 15, 2016 7:53:43 GMT -5
NCAA success is certainly directly related to perception of the casual fan; in that aspect, the lack of success the last 2 years, coupled with the conference realignment, has of course downgraded the BE reputation. Real basketball people know it is still a respectable conference at the top. But a couple of Sweet Sixteen/Elite Eight performances would certainly help. "Fading away" is a little premature - but maybe just a little.
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Filo
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Post by Filo on Jan 15, 2016 8:28:14 GMT -5
I say we split with Nova in the regular season. That's how these will go regardless of talent. I will say I can't stand Nova. They are our closest comparable program in the conference though I think we have the advantages and yet they are well ahead of us. That's where I question what we are doing. No way they should be a superior program but they have been for last several years though with the same limited success in the tournament which just may mean our conference isn't that good. I'm torn anymore because I feel I can't just hate a Nova program or other BE rivals like I used to. I almost need to have them have success in the post season so we can validate this conference which is still tenuous. I keep feeling like we as Georgetown who should be the pillar of this conference aren't holding up our end to support this new BE that doesn't get the attention by the major media. I know I'll be discounted but the BE is fading away here. Don't know whether we will split with them or not, but I agree with your overall post, except: 1. I know I should root for them to succeed outside the BE but I just can't. Tried. Just can't. Will never be able to. 2. Your last sentence is just odd to me. GU is having a bad year and the BE still has 4 teams in the Top 20, with 2 in the Top 3 RPI. Creighton is improving. I think the Marquette program will continue to make strides under Wojo. I don't feel like the BE is fading at all.
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lurkerhoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,182
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Post by lurkerhoya on Jan 15, 2016 9:07:54 GMT -5
I can root for Nova outside of our games. in fact, I used to! Dad grew up in Philly, Big 5 and all that, and long before I went to G'Town, I always pulled for Nova and Temple and because I lived in NY, SJU. The only teams I had a visceral reaction to were 'Cuse and UConn. Perhaps because they were foils to both Nova and SJU in that regard. (Fun Side Note: One of my favorite BE memories is still listening on a portable radio to SJU DESTROYING MD in the '99 Sweet 16, a very prescient moment indeed!)
That said, I root for the BE always. The history, the tradition, it just still means something to me on top of the fact that we're all in this boat together. A few weeks ago I discussed the long-term viability of the conference and it's just fact that all 10 teams are joined at the hip to produce a compelling and financially viable product. Whoever picks up our TV deal will only do so with high-level programming, and that means a healthy GU-Nova rivalry, which requires games of importance like Saturday that FS can either keep or sell for good money to recoup costs. Without those games, bye bye big TV $.
So, yep, I root for everyone. I like the personalities, the styles, it just resonates to me with the conference. The way everyone compliments each other, like brothers playing twice a year. I dunno, I didn't mean to wax poetical, it just still means something to me that the broader public value the BE, and treat the BET like the pinnacle of March basketball, and play montages of all of these great moments that still resonate because the teams in them are still relevant 20 years later.
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KHoyaNYC
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Posts: 1,900
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Post by KHoyaNYC on Jan 15, 2016 9:23:23 GMT -5
Swagger. Attitude. Body language. Stuff not measured on kenpom but all on display at the Garden to a degree we haven't seen this year. We'll need all of it to beat Nova. But we can do it.
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This Just In
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Bold Prediction: The Hoyas will win at least 1 BE game in 2023.
Posts: 10,592
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Post by This Just In on Jan 15, 2016 9:35:25 GMT -5
I say we split with Nova in the regular season. That's how these will go regardless of talent. I will say I can't stand Nova. They are our closest comparable program in the conference though I think we have the advantages and yet they are well ahead of us. That's where I question what we are doing. No way they should be a superior program but they have been for last several years though with the same limited success in the tournament which just may mean our conference isn't that good. I'm torn anymore because I feel I can't just hate a Nova program or other BE rivals like I used to. I almost need to have them have success in the post season so we can validate this conference which is still tenuous. I keep feeling like we as Georgetown who should be the pillar of this conference aren't holding up our end to support this new BE that doesn't get the attention by the major media. I know I'll be discounted but the BE is fading away here. It is the post season failures that really hurts the conference. The past 2 years the conference has sent 10 teams to the NCAA's 1 out of the 10 has made the Sweet 16's, a 10% success rate rate now The only other non mid-major conference with the same 10 teams for the past 2 years is the Big 12 The Big 12 has sent 14 teams to the NCAA's for the past 2 years and 4 of those teams have made to the Sweet 16 for a 28.5% success rate The AAC which had 10 teams in 2014, 11 teams in 2015 The AAC has sent 6 teams during the past 2 years to the NCAA tournament and 2 have gone to the Sweet 16's for a 33% success rate.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 15, 2016 10:11:24 GMT -5
It is the post season failures that really hurts the conference. The past 2 years the conference has sent 10 teams to the NCAA's 1 out of the 10 has made the Sweet 16's, a 10% success rate rate now The only other non mid-major conference with the same 10 teams for the past 2 years is the Big 12 The Big 12 has sent 14 teams to the NCAA's for the past 2 years and 4 of those teams have made to the Sweet 16 for a 28.5% success rate The AAC which had 10 teams in 2014, 11 teams in 2015 The AAC has sent 6 teams during the past 2 years to the NCAA tournament and 2 have gone to the Sweet 16's for a 33% success rate. I agree the Big East needs to be better, but this really shows how difficult it is to make Sweet 16+ (which makes sense, since there are only 16...). And the AAC's numbers are misleading because Louisville was one of the two Sweet 16's and they are in the ACC now. The AAC had a good first season, but last year only got two bids and they are likely headed for a similar result this year. The AAC just isn't a good conference.
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Post by aleutianhoya on Jan 15, 2016 10:28:12 GMT -5
It is the post season failures that really hurts the conference. The past 2 years the conference has sent 10 teams to the NCAA's 1 out of the 10 has made the Sweet 16's, a 10% success rate rate now The only other non mid-major conference with the same 10 teams for the past 2 years is the Big 12 The Big 12 has sent 14 teams to the NCAA's for the past 2 years and 4 of those teams have made to the Sweet 16 for a 28.5% success rate The AAC which had 10 teams in 2014, 11 teams in 2015 The AAC has sent 6 teams during the past 2 years to the NCAA tournament and 2 have gone to the Sweet 16's for a 33% success rate. I agree the Big East needs to be better, but this really shows how difficult it is to make Sweet 16+ (which makes sense, since there are only 16...). And the AAC's numbers are misleading because Louisville was one of the two Sweet 16's and they are in the ACC now. The AAC had a good first season, but last year only got two bids and they are likely headed for a similar result this year. The AAC just isn't a good conference. The key -- the entire key -- is to keep getting teams consistently into the Tournament as top 6 seeds. The conference has done that and looks like we will continue to do that. The Sweet 16s will come. This hasn't been a "we don't just lose we get blown out" type of problem (as at times it has been for the Hoyas). Both Villanova and Butler failed to advance to the Sweet 16 last year in one possession losses. And our game was a one possession game more or less until the last couple minutes. Turn two three pointers missed into makes (or vice-versa for the opponent) in all three of those games, and the narrative is different. I know, "ifs and buts" and all that. But I'm just pointing out that even if you think there's a systemic problem with the Hoyas, it's not there with the rest of the league.
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NCHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,927
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Post by NCHoya on Jan 15, 2016 10:31:01 GMT -5
I say we split with Nova in the regular season. That's how these will go regardless of talent. I will say I can't stand Nova. They are our closest comparable program in the conference though I think we have the advantages and yet they are well ahead of us. That's where I question what we are doing. No way they should be a superior program but they have been for last several years though with the same limited success in the tournament which just may mean our conference isn't that good. I'm torn anymore because I feel I can't just hate a Nova program or other BE rivals like I used to. I almost need to have them have success in the post season so we can validate this conference which is still tenuous. I keep feeling like we as Georgetown who should be the pillar of this conference aren't holding up our end to support this new BE that doesn't get the attention by the major media. I know I'll be discounted but the BE is fading away here. I agree with your overall point about GU not being a pillar of the conference it needs to be. It is hard to imagine the BE having sustained success without Georgetown and SJU stepping up and being the leaders in two major media markets. I also agree the BE is fading slightly. We need to have 2-3 teams get to the second weekend this season. As a real CBB fan, I am impressed with the BE's regular season success, unfortunately, CBB has become only about March to 90% of the sporting public. Success in March will certainly get the BE back in the media spotlight. That said, I cannot share your jealousy toward Nova. Our problems are self-inflicted, see Josh Hart, among many other things. Wright has found a successful formula and strategy and recruits to it without exception. Meanwhile, III seems unsettled on what our strategy/identity should be. Until that changes, I think Nova stays ahead of us.
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hoyas315
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Post by hoyas315 on Jan 15, 2016 10:33:24 GMT -5
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drquigley
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Posts: 3,391
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Post by drquigley on Jan 15, 2016 11:22:08 GMT -5
I say we split with Nova in the regular season. That's how these will go regardless of talent. I will say I can't stand Nova. They are our closest comparable program in the conference though I think we have the advantages and yet they are well ahead of us. That's where I question what we are doing. No way they should be a superior program but they have been for last several years though with the same limited success in the tournament which just may mean our conference isn't that good. I'm torn anymore because I feel I can't just hate a Nova program or other BE rivals like I used to. I almost need to have them have success in the post season so we can validate this conference which is still tenuous. I keep feeling like we as Georgetown who should be the pillar of this conference aren't holding up our end to support this new BE that doesn't get the attention by the major media. I know I'll be discounted but the BE is fading away here. I agree with your overall point about GU not being a pillar of the conference it needs to be. It is hard to imagine the BE having sustained success without Georgetown and SJU stepping up and being the leaders in two major media markets. I also agree the BE is fading slightly. We need to have 2-3 teams get to the second weekend this season. As a real CBB fan, I am impressed with the BE's regular season success, unfortunately, CBB has become only about March to 90% of the sporting public. Success in March will certainly get the BE back in the media spotlight. That said, I cannot share your jealousy toward Nova. Our problems are self-inflicted, see Josh Hart, among many other things. Wright has found a successful formula and strategy and recruits to it without exception. Meanwhile, III seems unsettled on what our strategy/identity should be. Until that changes, I think Nova stays ahead of us. I think it is a good point of discussion as to why Nova has done so much better than us over the last few years. If you read the article contained in the articles link you can't help but be impressed by how Nova keeps its best players for 4 years. Maybe because their best players seem to take at least 2-3 years to mature. Would we really not have won a BE championship or two if Otto had stayed 4 years? Or if Monroe had stayed 4 years. Would we even be competitive this year if DSR had left? Maybe you should divide D1 basketball programs into those that can reload after one or two and dones leave and those that can't.
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OldHoyafan
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Post by OldHoyafan on Jan 15, 2016 11:49:59 GMT -5
Swagger. Attitude. Body language. Stuff not measured on kenpom but all on display at the Garden to a degree we haven't seen this year. We'll need all of it to beat Nova. But we can do it. Exactly, to beat a confident team like Nova, you need at least two players on your team with that same swagger, attitude and body language. Last year the Hoyas had DSR and Jabril. This year they have only had DSR. There has been no one to consistently step up and be Robbin for Batman. Copeland, White or LJ were expected to play the Robbin role in Jabril's absence, but White has been injured and Copeland and LJ have not been consistent. Copeland's play the last two games, gives a ray of hope that he is getting ready to be that player. LJ on the other hand is still struggling. To be honest, Jabril would have been on the bench this year ,with the new rules , as long or longer than LJ. That being said, LJ has to adjust and realize the refs will not let him play Jabril style defense any more. He also has to realize that on his drives to the basket that he will need at least one or two more dribbles before he goes up for the basket. With his hops he could explode over a 6'8"-9" defender for a dunk instead of the weak beneath the basket leaner he is getting now with the one or two dribble drives.
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Nevada Hoya
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Post by Nevada Hoya on Jan 15, 2016 13:33:45 GMT -5
Since the game will be on CBS, this will be my second time to watch the Hoyas this year. The first time was the Syracuse game, and the Hoyas won that, so I am hoping for the same outcome! Go Hoyas!!!
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 15, 2016 14:21:17 GMT -5
Swagger. Attitude. Body language. Stuff not measured on kenpom but all on display at the Garden to a degree we haven't seen this year. We'll need all of it to beat Nova. But we can do it. Exactly, to beat a confident team like Nova, you need at least two players on your team with that same swagger, attitude and body language. Last year the Hoyas had DSR and Jabril. To beat Villanova, we need players who are going to defend well and make shots - I don't really care if they do that with "attitude" or "swagger" as long as they do it. Body language, attitude, and swagger do not make shots fall. People put too much emphasis on those factors. And, people tend to attribute those characteristics to "winners" and say "losers" do not have them. We need to play well. It's really that simple.
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Jan 15, 2016 14:31:30 GMT -5
Swagger. Attitude. Body language. Stuff not measured on kenpom but all on display at the Garden to a degree we haven't seen this year. We'll need all of it to beat Nova. But we can do it. Exactly, to beat a confident team like Nova, you need at least two players on your team with that same swagger, attitude and body language. Last year the Hoyas had DSR and Jabril. This year they have only had DSR. There has been no one to consistently step up and be Robbin for Batman. Copeland, White or LJ were expected to play the Robbin role in Jabril's absence, but White has been injured and Copeland and LJ have not been consistent. Copeland's play the last two games, gives a ray of hope that he is getting ready to be that player. LJ on the other hand is still struggling. To be honest, Jabril would have been on the bench this year ,with the new rules , as long or longer than LJ. That being said, LJ has to adjust and realize the refs will not let him play Jabril style defense any more. He also has to realize that on his drives to the basket that he will need at least one or two more dribbles before he goes up for the basket. With his hops he could explode over a 6'8"-9" defender for a dunk instead of the weak beneath the basket leaner he is getting now with the one or two dribble drives. I completely agree with Oldhoyafan- we need to bring incredible confidence and intensity to this one. If we do that, we have a fairly good chance, even if the execution is not ideal.
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LCPolo18
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Post by LCPolo18 on Jan 15, 2016 15:18:20 GMT -5
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hoyaboya
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Post by hoyaboya on Jan 15, 2016 15:28:49 GMT -5
Awesome news...will match up well vs. Jenkins.
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