OldHoyafan
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Post by OldHoyafan on Dec 2, 2015 14:39:56 GMT -5
Keeping him out of the scouting report for Saturday could also me a real thing... I like to think that coach plays the mental game at this level. With PW and Ike sitting, 'cuse doesn't get a good look at the two guys who are most likely to break down the zone from the foul line. That's what I like to think... I think the two above quotes sum up my take on JTIII's substitution pattern last night. There was zero flashes to the middle of the smallish zone by a Hoya forward they were employing last night. The player that did flash to the free throw line was DSR, who did no receive a pass so he exited. I think Cuse will see a lot of Paul and Isaac there Saturday. I would have liked to have seen more of White, and probably would have had the next four opponents been the caliber of MES, instead of Cuse. From last year's performance and practice III knows what he can expect from White and Tre. Cameron and Hayes are upperclassmen but have not until this year had much pt so it's important to get them as much as you can before the conference games. I believe the substitution pattern will resemble last year's next game as for as White and Tre are concerned.
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drquigley
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Post by drquigley on Dec 2, 2015 15:21:07 GMT -5
Thats what people have been saying for ages. Part of the reason why Hoya Blue/Stonewalls were formed this century. All I'm saying is if you're going to the game (especially as a student), you're there to have fun and make noise, not dwell on the 30+ year olds ready for bed at 7 on a Tuesday night after a long day (one of which I'm quickly becoming). The atmosphere in College basketball isn't starting with the alumni, it's with the students. *This is random rambling, not necessarily focused at last night or your children at GU. Completely understood your point. I think what we are seeing is a shift from GU as a typical small Catholic University for smart (but not 1500+ college board) kids from middle class families to a school for very bright kids from wealthy families. Bball was a huge part of our college experience and we carried it with us as alumni. Kids graduating in the last 10 years not so much. Throw in the lack of an on-campus arena and that may explain the poor attendance. Curious what attendance is like at elite Ivy league school bball games.
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Post by Ranch Dressing on Dec 2, 2015 15:51:49 GMT -5
Not reading too much into one UMES game of low attendance. The game 31 years ago with even lower attendance came during the 1984-85 season, a year after we won the national championship and were the prohibitive favorites to repeat all season long.
I think we'll see a small increase in attendance overall this season over last season when it is all said and done. The Big East is strong and we should be pretty competitive.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Dec 2, 2015 15:54:31 GMT -5
Something tells me this team is going to break our hearts. Very talented but very young. Why do Govan and Derrickson look lost and afraid? I think we need to get a little meaner. Jesse Sapp-Jabril Trawick mean. Really curious to see what a sold out home game against a hated rival does to these guys. Is it just me, or are there members of this board that won't be happy until we turn back the clock and play 1980's style defense with no sense of offense, where we foul on every play and roughhouse the other team?
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Dec 2, 2015 15:56:18 GMT -5
Just like that hunch that told you that Tre Campbell was in imminent peril with his illness, right? I said in the Tre Campbell post that I'm glad my fears about his health were unfounded. But my concern over Govan and Derrickson's lack of aggression are legit. Both guys need to step up. Lost and afraid? No, they're freshman. BTW, when you peered in to their inner psyches to determine that they were lost and afraid, did you happen to notice whether or not they were smiling?
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 17,781
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Post by SFHoya99 on Dec 2, 2015 16:22:59 GMT -5
Completely understood your point. I think what we are seeing is a shift from GU as a typical small Catholic University for smart (but not 1500+ college board) kids from middle class families to a school for very bright kids from wealthy families. Bball was a huge part of our college experience and we carried it with us as alumni. Kids graduating in the last 10 years not so much. Throw in the lack of an on-campus arena and that may explain the poor attendance. Curious what attendance is like at elite Ivy league school bball games. This shift happened ages ago, though I couldn't speak to the economic portion entirely. But Georgetown was a national school with a 13% acceptance rate and 1400-1500 SAT scores when I went in 1995 and we've had periods of strong student support (and weak student support). Win and people come. It helps to have an effective Hoya Blue type thing. It would be nice to be on campus more. All these things are true. Running the buses again would help. We've talked this one to death, but there's nothing particular about now except not being in the Old Big East and not being ranked.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Dec 2, 2015 16:39:27 GMT -5
Here is our historic attendance, pulled from an old thread where I posted the same information:
2015 9,630 2014 8,670 2013 10,911 2012 11,283 2011 12,675 2010 12,040 2009 12,827 2008 12,955 2007 10,441 2006 10,351 2005 7,837 2004 8,431 2003 8,796 2002 8,194 2001 8,695 2000 7,758 1999 8,750 1998 10,030 1997 9,291 1996 12,604 1995 12,232 1994 8,983 1993 8,491 1992 10,176 1991 12,422 1990 12,637 1989 12,387 1988 9,172 1987 8,717 1986 9,159 1985 10,833 1984 8,386 1983 11,936 1982 8,591 1981 4,197 1980 2,657 1979 3,202 1978 2,898
Clearly, it ebs and flows. We will probably never get back to the numbers in the 2006-2013 range because we are no longer in a conference with schools that will help to fill up the Verizon Center. Of course, making another Final Four would certainly help spur interest and would certainly kick our numbers up. People want to see a winner.
For the person who asked, here are the Ivy League attendance averages from last year. We aren't even close to that level of disinterest, which I think correlates largely to the fact that our teams have been good recently and have a history of success, whereas the Ivies do not:
Brown - 739 Columbia - 1,535 Cornell - 2,117 Dartmouth - 952 Harvard - 1,786 Pennsylvania - 3,141 Princeton - 1,990 Yale - 1,372
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Post by Ranch Dressing on Dec 2, 2015 16:42:56 GMT -5
I think what we are seeing is a shift from GU as a typical small Catholic University for smart (but not 1500+ college board) kids from middle class families to a school for very bright kids from wealthy families. Bball was a huge part of our college experience and we carried it with us as alumni. Kids graduating in the last 10 years not so much. Throw in the lack of an on-campus arena and that may explain the poor attendance. Curious what attendance is like at elite Ivy league school bball games. This shift happened ages ago, though I couldn't speak to the economic portion entirely. But Georgetown was a national school with a 13% acceptance rate and 1400-1500 SAT scores when I went in 1995 and we've had periods of strong student support (and weak student support). Win and people come. It helps to have an effective Hoya Blue type thing. It would be nice to be on campus more. All these things are true. Running the buses again would help. We've talked this one to death, but there's nothing particular about now except not being in the Old Big East and not being ranked. In addition to winning, and especially because the Old Big East is kaputzkies, I think Georgetown should do a better job of scheduling meaningful OOC at home. I think the series with Syracuse and UConn are a positive step. Initiating a recurring series with Maryland would a great step. Maybe bringing in Notre Dame would be fun. Obviously, the Duke series was a big hit. No matter how it's done, though, I think at least 2 marquee OOC home games should be a goal for the schedule each season. If we can get locked into a series with 4 marquee teams, then you'd have 2 away and 2 home games baked in each year, plus a 3rd random team for good measure. The home town fans need to see better games. The early season tourneys are fun, but they don't reward the season ticket holders.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Dec 2, 2015 16:43:40 GMT -5
This shift happened ages ago, though I couldn't speak to the economic portion entirely. But Georgetown was a national school with a 13% acceptance rate and 1400-1500 SAT scores when I went in 1995 and we've had periods of strong student support (and weak student support). True, though I think these numbers are a bit low. Last year, Georgetown accepted around 16% of students (give or take a bit depending on the school being applied to). I think that's pretty close to as competitive as it's ever been. For unrelated reasons, I was actually trying to find acceptance rates from the 1990s and I couldn't find anything online. I did find something in the mid-2000s that put it at 22% though. The fact is, at any private university that's not a state school (or in the middle of nowhere, with little else to do), MOST students are not going to be into the games. It's just reality. That's more true now than it's ever been, with an almost endless supply of other things for students to do.
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Post by Ranch Dressing on Dec 2, 2015 16:46:28 GMT -5
Here is our historic attendance, pulled from an old thread where I posted the same information: 2015 9,630 2014 8,670 2013 10,911 2012 11,283 2011 12,675 2010 12,040 2009 12,827 2008 12,955 2007 10,441 2006 10,351 2005 7,837 2004 8,431 2003 8,796 2002 8,194 2001 8,695 2000 7,758 1999 8,750 1998 10,030 1997 9,291 1996 12,604 1995 12,232 1994 8,983 1993 8,491 1992 10,176 1991 12,422 1990 12,637 1989 12,387 1988 9,172 1987 8,717 1986 9,159 1985 10,833 1984 8,386 1983 11,936 1982 8,591 1981 4,197 1980 2,657 1979 3,202 1978 2,898 Clearly, it ebs and flows. We will probably never get back to the numbers in the 2006-2013 range because we are no longer in a conference with schools that will help to fill up the Verizon Center. Of course, making another Final Four would certainly help spur interest and would certainly kick our numbers up. People want to see a winner. For the person who asked, here are the Ivy League attendance averages from last year. We aren't even close to that level of disinterest, which I think correlates largely to the fact that our teams have been good recently and have a history of success, whereas the Ivies do not: Brown - 739 Columbia - 1,535 Cornell - 2,117 Dartmouth - 952 Harvard - 1,786 Pennsylvania - 3,141 Princeton - 1,990 Yale - 1,372 Absolutely astounding to me that last year's team drew more than the 1984 team (even given the differences between Cap Center and Verizon)...
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by SFHoya99 on Dec 2, 2015 17:05:58 GMT -5
This shift happened ages ago, though I couldn't speak to the economic portion entirely. But Georgetown was a national school with a 13% acceptance rate and 1400-1500 SAT scores when I went in 1995 and we've had periods of strong student support (and weak student support). True, though I think these numbers are a bit low. Last year, Georgetown accepted around 16% of students (give or take a bit depending on the school being applied to). I think that's pretty close to as competitive as it's ever been. For unrelated reasons, I was actually trying to find acceptance rates from the 1990s and I couldn't find anything online. I did find something in the mid-2000s that put it at 22% though. The fact is, at any private university that's not a state school (or in the middle of nowhere, with little else to do), MOST students are not going to be into the games. It's just reality. That's more true now than it's ever been, with an almost endless supply of other things for students to do. The thing is, when we were winning a little under a decade ago, and when Hoya Blue was on a whole 'nother level*, we were pulling student sections of well over 1,000 pretty commonly, no? Maybe I'm wrong, but it's not insane to expect more than a couple hundred ... but you have to win and you have to make it easy. Yes, you are never going to get the whole school ... but no one does. The Student Section at Duke is rabid, but actually pretty small in absolute numbers. Most smaller schools don't draw a huge portion of their population, even schools with less of an academic focus. The issue isn't the intelligence -- it's the absolute enrollment, the distance from campus and lack of easy options, and winning. *Here I'm definitely using this as a compliment!
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 17,781
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Post by SFHoya99 on Dec 2, 2015 17:06:58 GMT -5
Here is our historic attendance, pulled from an old thread where I posted the same information: 2015 9,630 2014 8,670 2013 10,911 2012 11,283 2011 12,675 2010 12,040 2009 12,827 2008 12,955 2007 10,441 2006 10,351 2005 7,837 2004 8,431 2003 8,796 2002 8,194 2001 8,695 2000 7,758 1999 8,750 1998 10,030 1997 9,291 1996 12,604 1995 12,232 1994 8,983 1993 8,491 1992 10,176 1991 12,422 1990 12,637 1989 12,387 1988 9,172 1987 8,717 1986 9,159 1985 10,833 1984 8,386 1983 11,936 1982 8,591 1981 4,197 1980 2,657 1979 3,202 1978 2,898 Clearly, it ebs and flows. We will probably never get back to the numbers in the 2006-2013 range because we are no longer in a conference with schools that will help to fill up the Verizon Center. Of course, making another Final Four would certainly help spur interest and would certainly kick our numbers up. People want to see a winner. For the person who asked, here are the Ivy League attendance averages from last year. We aren't even close to that level of disinterest, which I think correlates largely to the fact that our teams have been good recently and have a history of success, whereas the Ivies do not: Brown - 739 Columbia - 1,535 Cornell - 2,117 Dartmouth - 952 Harvard - 1,786 Pennsylvania - 3,141 Princeton - 1,990 Yale - 1,372 Absolutely astounding to me that last year's team drew more than the 1984 team (even given the differences between Cap Center and Verizon)... Yep, I love how people lament how we've lost the fan support we had in the 80s...except we haven't. There were big games when I was there with Iverson and Page ... but the Cap Center was pretty quiet for routine games.
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Post by Ranch Dressing on Dec 2, 2015 17:50:55 GMT -5
Not sure Pops' scheduling helped with attendance. There were precious few marquee OOC games at home (Stipanovich's Missouri and Ralph Sampson's UVa teams the 2 big exceptions I recall off-hand).
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Dec 2, 2015 18:10:12 GMT -5
It's also interesting to track attendance in waves:
1983-1985: Reasons for Georgetown's higher attendance in 1983/1985 is obvious. It is very odd that 1984 was so low. I wonder if there was some strange reason that's not obvious from the numbers themselves. Games weren't played at McDonough by that point, right?
1989-1992: Unsurprisingly, the Mourning era drew well.
1995-1996: Iverson.
2006-2013. The large increase here is clearly attributable to the 2006 Sweet 16, 2007 Final Four, and good teams that followed. 2008 pretty much shows what some have said about winning. If you win in March, people will come to see you.
2013-2014: This drop is attributable in large part to the conference situation, but also the fact that the 2014 team wasn't very good.
I would really be curious to see how we would draw, on average, if we were to make a Final Four (or better) again. I am skeptical we would draw as well as 2008, but I think it's easy to see an average over 10,000 if we were not too shy of that last year.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Dec 2, 2015 18:13:35 GMT -5
Yep, I love how people lament how we've lost the fan support we had in the 80s...except we haven't. Definitely. People always have a tendency to lament for the past and assume facts back it up. The same thing is true of attendance for baseball. For example, TV ratings are much diminished for baseball overall compared to years past, yet the Yankees' attendance in the last 20 years is easily far greater than any previous era. I think the same is likely true in a lot of sports situations.
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AvantGuardHoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
"It was when I found out I could make mistakes that I knew I was on to something."
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Post by AvantGuardHoya on Dec 2, 2015 18:34:49 GMT -5
Not sure Pops' scheduling helped with attendance. There were precious few marquee OOC games at home (Stipanovich's Missouri and Ralph Sampson's UVa teams the 2 big exceptions I recall off-hand). Don't forget UNLV and Ray Meyers' DePaul teams.
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tashoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by tashoya on Dec 2, 2015 22:36:15 GMT -5
I like to think that coach plays the mental game at this level. With PW and Ike sitting, 'cuse doesn't get a good look at the two guys who are most likely to break down the zone from the foul line. That's what I like to think... I think the two above quotes sum up my take on JTIII's substitution pattern last night. There was zero flashes to the middle of the smallish zone by a Hoya forward they were employing last night. The player that did flash to the free throw line was DSR, who did no receive a pass so he exited. I think Cuse will see a lot of Paul and Isaac there Saturday. I would have liked to have seen more of White, and probably would have had the next four opponents been the caliber of MES, instead of Cuse. From last year's performance and practice III knows what he can expect from White and Tre. Cameron and Hayes are upperclassmen but have not until this year had much pt so it's important to get them as much as you can before the conference games. I believe the substitution pattern will resemble last year's next game as for as White and Tre are concerned. Shouldn't Cuse have plenty of tape from last year to see what PW and Isaac can do? Extrapolation is not that difficult. Isaac has played a bunch of minutes and has shown his full game so far. It's not like PW grew four inches or put on 20 pounds of muscle. We know about what to expect from him when fully healthy. I agree that we'll likely see a lot of smaller lineups because Cuse is lacking in size. I wouldn't be shocked if Trey got more minutes than Hayes. I expect a healthy dose of Copeland, Derrickson, and White and not too much Bradley. Govan is more mobile but I can see Trey taking some of his minutes too because, as of now, he's been a better rebounder in limited minutes and can knock down a midrange jumper with similar regularity. Some of it will depend on how much Coleman plays for them. But if they run out a skilled 6'8" center like they did tonight that can also knock down threes, it's going to dictate some of our rotations.
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lichoya68
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
OK YOUNGINS ARE HERE AND ARE VERY VERY GOOD cant wait GO HOYAS
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Post by lichoya68 on Dec 3, 2015 10:57:38 GMT -5
ISSAC NEEDS AN INFUSION OF PATRICK EWINGS HUSTLE RIGHT NOW FOR CUSE nuf said.. NEED HIM TO hustle for forty minutes OR more
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Post by Coast2CoastHoya on Dec 3, 2015 14:14:32 GMT -5
2006-2013 was kind of the perfect storm of losing Esh, getting III, HoyaBlue resurging in force, the new gray shirts, beating Duke, getting back to the Dance, Steve Alleva being awesome at ticket ops, the classes of 2006-07 being Hoops crazy, etc. all of which combined to generate excitement. That excitement just isn't there on campus anymore; going to games is no longer the "thing to do", a lot like when I was on campus (the lowest attendance year in the past 30 years - 2000 - was my sophomore year). The other major factor that wasn't listed: the university subsidized transportation to and from games. From students and alumni I've spoken with, that was huge. Not everyone is like those of us who will walk, bike, metro, or even knee-scoot to games. It's also interesting to track attendance in waves: 1983-1985: Reasons for Georgetown's higher attendance in 1983/1985 is obvious. It is very odd that 1984 was so low. I wonder if there was some strange reason that's not obvious from the numbers themselves. Games weren't played at McDonough by that point, right? 1989-1992: Unsurprisingly, the Mourning era drew well. 1995-1996: Iverson. 2006-2013. The large increase here is clearly attributable to the 2006 Sweet 16, 2007 Final Four, and good teams that followed. 2008 pretty much shows what some have said about winning. If you win in March, people will come to see you. 2013-2014: This drop is attributable in large part to the conference situation, but also the fact that the 2014 team wasn't very good. I would really be curious to see how we would draw, on average, if we were to make a Final Four (or better) again. I am skeptical we would draw as well as 2008, but I think it's easy to see an average over 10,000 if we were not too shy of that last year.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Dec 3, 2015 14:57:39 GMT -5
2006-2013 was kind of the perfect storm of losing Esh, getting III, HoyaBlue resurging in force, the new gray shirts, beating Duke, getting back to the Dance, Steve Alleva being awesome at ticket ops, the classes of 2006-07 being Hoops crazy, etc. all of which combined to generate excitement. That excitement just isn't there on campus anymore; going to games is no longer the "thing to do", a lot like when I was on campus (the lowest attendance year in the past 30 years - 2000 - was my sophomore year). The other major factor that wasn't listed: the university subsidized transportation to and from games. From students and alumni I've spoken with, that was huge. Not everyone is like those of us who will walk, bike, metro, or even knee-scoot to games. I agree on the transportation. There really should be buses, etc. to aid students in getting there. 2000 was my sophomore year too - I actually wasn't into basketball at the time. My basketball fandom arose after graduation (it does happen!).
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