prhoya
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Post by prhoya on May 6, 2016 17:31:32 GMT -5
Very interesting article, and I think it's in line with arguments made many times in this thread that hiring a very high quality coach (regardless of that coach's salary) is very difficult, if not impossible unless you are a blue-blood (Gary Parrish's version of "top 10"). Ah! Still trying to make your point? To answer you using the article, if it was looking for a HC, GU would have an elite job to offer, esp. at $3.1M which makes us a blue-blood in the HC salary/compensation category.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on May 6, 2016 18:54:17 GMT -5
Takes more than $$ to make a blue blood.
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njhoya78
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Post by njhoya78 on May 6, 2016 19:09:02 GMT -5
If money was all that it took to make a basketball blue blood, Oklahoma State would be the bluest of bloods.
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eagle54
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Post by eagle54 on May 6, 2016 20:51:19 GMT -5
If money was all that it took to make a basketball blue blood, Oklahoma State would be the bluest of bloods. Those aren't all blue blood programs. Some clearly are and others just have huge athletic department budgets. Ohio State is there because they are right with Texas in terms of total budget. However, Hoyas spend on only one sport so for basketball we should be able to compete with any of them. And if you are lucky enough to get the job it's got much more job security than those other schools as they expect to win.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on May 6, 2016 21:37:07 GMT -5
If money was all that it took to make a basketball blue blood, Oklahoma State would be the bluest of bloods. Those aren't all blue blood programs. Some clearly are and others just have huge athletic department budgets. Ohio State is there because they are right with Texas in terms of total budget. True. The accompanying video's title is "B-list programs struggling to get A-list coaches."
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jld
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Post by jld on May 7, 2016 10:40:41 GMT -5
It's clear that the program needed a major shake up after this past season. Since JT3 is going nowhere, but the coaching and recruiting leaves much to be desired, it is natural that the assistants would leave. I believe that the staff needed an upgrade from a pure coaching and game strategy viewpoint. Hopefully we can find a good x and o guy, and a solid second recruiter behind Broadus.
Secondly, I think credit is due for bringing in experienced guards in Pryor and Mulmore. If they are just solid they will be a major improvement over last year's backcourt, and Mosely can provide depth and develop at a reasonable pace. This also buys time to bring in good guards in the next two classes, as we can offer PT to incoming HS guards given the junior and senior status of Mulmore and Pryor, respectively.
Finally, Hayes coming back will provide leadership, depth and stability. It will allow Jesse to develop without the burden of having to produce at a high level every game. If Jesse takes a leap then I don't think Hayes will complain about a lesser role, and if Jesse needs more time to mature, then Hayes can step in -- a win-win in my view.
I think all at GU including and especially JT3 knew that the results over the past 3 years were not acceptable, and that changes were needed. This does not excuse the past flaws which all land on the shoulders of the head coach, but it seems that he clearly knows there are major issues and took concrete steps to make real changes. I think the next challenge is to play a more guard centric style, as good guards have always been the key to success, and even more so with the rule changes.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on May 7, 2016 15:20:17 GMT -5
Ah! Still trying to make your point? To answer you using the article, if it was looking for a HC, GU would have an elite job to offer, esp. at $3.1M which makes us a blue-blood in the HC salary/compensation category. No, actually the point of the article is that there have been many high major openings over the last several years and unless you are a top 10 blue blood type of program you're not going to get them. Flashing money at coaches doesn't mean you're going to get a good one simply because there aren't that many out there. Instead best case scenario is an up and coming coach who would not merit $3.1 million. If you think that Georgetown's coaching job is so elite that we'd have pick of the litter on coaches simply because we could pay somebody a fair amount of money, I think your expectations and view of the program are significantly higher than reality merits.
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Post by michaelgrahmstylie on May 7, 2016 18:59:54 GMT -5
Pay me 3.1 mil and I think that would make me giddy and put me in a special group of people. It might even make me become a little elitist.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on May 7, 2016 19:52:55 GMT -5
Pay me 3.1 mil and I think that would make me giddy and put me in a special group of people. It might even make me become a little elitist. I would do it for less.
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eagle54
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Post by eagle54 on May 7, 2016 21:37:40 GMT -5
Ah! Still trying to make your point? To answer you using the article, if it was looking for a HC, GU would have an elite job to offer, esp. at $3.1M which makes us a blue-blood in the HC salary/compensation category. No, actually the point of the article is that there have been many high major openings over the last several years and unless you are a top 10 blue blood type of program you're not going to get them. Flashing money at coaches doesn't mean you're going to get a good one simply because there aren't that many out there. Instead best case scenario is an up and coming coach who would not merit $3.1 million. If you think that Georgetown's coaching job is so elite that we'd have pick of the litter on coaches simply because we could pay somebody a fair amount of money, I think your expectations and view of the program are significantly higher than reality merits. We'll never know if we could attract someone who can actually coach as we've never had a coaching search. We've had JTII (who may have been the last real coaching search) then handed reins to his longtime assistant than handed reins to his son. I think we might surprise ourselves if we actually had the courage to hold ourselves out as a D-I program that spends what we do on basketball and coaching (and save the Verizon rent track).
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on May 8, 2016 8:24:16 GMT -5
No, actually the point of the article is that there have been many high major openings over the last several years and unless you are a top 10 blue blood type of program you're not going to get them. Flashing money at coaches doesn't mean you're going to get a good one simply because there aren't that many out there. Instead best case scenario is an up and coming coach who would not merit $3.1 million. If you think that Georgetown's coaching job is so elite that we'd have pick of the litter on coaches simply because we could pay somebody a fair amount of money, I think your expectations and view of the program are significantly higher than reality merits. We'll never know if we could attract someone who can actually coach as we've never had a coaching search. We've had JTII (who may have been the last real coaching search) then handed reins to his longtime assistant than handed reins to his son. I think we might surprise ourselves if we actually had the courage to hold ourselves out as a D-I program that spends what we do on basketball and coaching (and save the Verizon rent track). The Georgetown jobs has a number of positives (Good recruiting area, good tradition, willing to spend money) But it also has draw backs (Terrible fan base, actually accountable to academic standards). Until this year you could add facilities as a major downside too. We're finally catching up to our peers there for now, but we're not able to compete in an arms race of facilities like other schools can. If you think we could get the A+ hire of a guy like Mack, Miller, or Marshall you're dreaming.
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njhoya78
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Post by njhoya78 on May 8, 2016 10:55:26 GMT -5
At some point (perhaps in the near future, perhaps not), we will know the answer to this question. Until then, we are all just guessing. That being said (or written), I am not optimistic that GU would be able to attract a big name coach to replace JT3 if the opportunity/need arose, and I am not (at this time) in the camp that any change would be better than the present coaching situation.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on May 8, 2016 11:04:07 GMT -5
We'll never know if we could attract someone who can actually coach as we've never had a coaching search. We've had JTII (who may have been the last real coaching search) then handed reins to his longtime assistant than handed reins to his son. I think we might surprise ourselves if we actually had the courage to hold ourselves out as a D-I program that spends what we do on basketball and coaching (and save the Verizon rent track). The Georgetown jobs has a number of positives (Good recruiting area, good tradition, willing to spend money) But it also has draw backs (Terrible fan base, actually accountable to academic standards). Until this year you could add facilities as a major downside too. We're finally catching up to our peers there for now, but we're not able to compete in an arms race of facilities like other schools can. If you think we could get the A+ hire of a guy like Mack, Miller, or Marshall you're dreaming. I'll bite. If you think we could not get the A+ hire of a guy like Mack, Miller, or Marshall, you're dreaming. See how easy that was? Btw, of the drawbacks that you mention, fan base/attendance is cured easily with a winning team. As to academic standards, GU is not alone there. Positives trump negatives.
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AltoSaxa
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Post by AltoSaxa on May 8, 2016 11:23:20 GMT -5
You also have to consider that any prospective coach, 'elite' or otherwise, may have concerns taking over a program whose identity is grounded in the Thompson family.
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on May 8, 2016 13:44:16 GMT -5
The Georgetown jobs has a number of positives (Good recruiting area, good tradition, willing to spend money) But it also has draw backs (Terrible fan base, actually accountable to academic standards). Until this year you could add facilities as a major downside too. We're finally catching up to our peers there for now, but we're not able to compete in an arms race of facilities like other schools can. If you think we could get the A+ hire of a guy like Mack, Miller, or Marshall you're dreaming. I'll bite. If you think we could not get the A+ hire of a guy like Mack, Miller, or Marshall, you're dreaming. See how easy that was? Btw, of the drawbacks that you mention, fan base/attendance is cured easily with a winning team. As to academic standards, GU is not alone there. Positives trump negatives. except I don't think fan/base attendance is cured easily by a winning team. Even at our height our attendance was mediocre. In addition, it's very clear 1) the fans we have are very fickle good fan bases stick with their team through thick and thin. 2) No matter how decent our fan base becomes we will always be second fiddle to Maryland in the area and way down the pecking order behind the pro teams. As to academic standards how many of the schools listed in the article have them? Maybe Duke. We know the other schools don't.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on May 8, 2016 23:09:43 GMT -5
The Georgetown jobs has a number of positives (Good recruiting area, good tradition, willing to spend money) But it also has draw backs (Terrible fan base, actually accountable to academic standards). Until this year you could add facilities as a major downside too. We're finally catching up to our peers there for now, but we're not able to compete in an arms race of facilities like other schools can. If you think we could get the A+ hire of a guy like Mack, Miller, or Marshall you're dreaming. I'll bite. If you think we could not get the A+ hire of a guy like Mack, Miller, or Marshall, you're dreaming. See how easy that was? Btw, of the drawbacks that you mention, fan base/attendance is cured easily with a winning team. As to academic standards, GU is not alone there. Positives trump negatives. Except virtually no program that is similarly situated has hired a coach like Mack, Miller, or Marshall over the last several years - that was the point of the article. So, for your position to be true, Georgetown has to somehow be more special than the schools that have had openings over the last several years. I know some here do think Georgetown is so special and unique that it would attract the highest quality candidates, even though a lot of similar schools have not managed to attract these same coaches. I disagree.
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dreamhoya
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Post by dreamhoya on May 9, 2016 6:22:22 GMT -5
That being said (or written), I am not optimistic that GU would be able to attract a big name coach to replace JT3 if the opportunity/need arose, and I am not (at this time) in the camp that any change would be better than the present coaching situation. Maybe. JTIII is a good coach. They types of players he recruits and the assistants will determine if he's a championship coach. If it's mainly on him then he may not ever get beyond Sweet 16. Looks like that's being considered. We'll see tho....
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on May 9, 2016 7:50:45 GMT -5
except I don't think fan/base attendance is cured easily by a winning team. Even at our height our attendance was mediocre. In addition, it's very clear 1) the fans we have are very fickle good fan bases stick with their team through thick and thin. 2) No matter how decent our fan base becomes we will always be second fiddle to Maryland in the area and way down the pecking order behind the pro teams. As to academic standards how many of the schools listed in the article have them? Maybe Duke. We know the other schools don't. Would you call a school whose attendance ranked in the top 10 percent of Division I "mediocre"? In fact that was Georgetown from 2006-07 through 2012-13. The fan base issue is a direct result of a generation of alumni and local fans where Georgetown tacitly educated them that there is one (and only one) sport that matters and to ignore the rest. This leads to an "all or nothing" approach when it comes to support. You can't just turn on and off the interest like a spigot. When Georgetown continues to send the message to its fans and the local community that its products are either inferior (football), irrelevant (women's basketball) or not worth their time (lacrosse), then the fan base will rise and fall solely as a result of men's basketball and it will continue to suffer as a result. When GU athletics is only "relevant" four months during the year, you'll get a fan base worth four months a year. Creighton draws great for basketball, win or lose, but it's not unique to basketball. Being a Creighton fan is more than showing up to 15 home games in the winter. Saturday's baseball game with the Hoyas drew 8,258 despite it being broadcast statewide on over the air TV and well as the ESPN radio affiliate. By contrast, GU averages an announced crowd of 222 per baseball home game with zero media whatsoever. Are there more than 222 men, women or children in a metro area of 4.6 million who could support one of just two Division I baseball programs remaining in DC? Well, there ought to be. There is a small minority on this board who will suggest that any money spent on sports other than men's basketball is counterproductive and the more money basketball gets, the better. That's a very short-sighted approach.
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HoyaChris
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Post by HoyaChris on May 9, 2016 8:20:39 GMT -5
except I don't think fan/base attendance is cured easily by a winning team. Even at our height our attendance was mediocre. In addition, it's very clear 1) the fans we have are very fickle good fan bases stick with their team through thick and thin. 2) No matter how decent our fan base becomes we will always be second fiddle to Maryland in the area and way down the pecking order behind the pro teams. As to academic standards how many of the schools listed in the article have them? Maybe Duke. We know the other schools don't. Would you call a school whose attendance ranked in the top 10 percent of Division I "mediocre"? In fact that was Georgetown from 2006-07 through 2012-13. The fan base issue is a direct result of a generation of alumni and local fans where Georgetown tacitly educated them that there is one (and only one) sport that matters and to ignore the rest. This leads to an "all or nothing" approach when it comes to support. You can't just turn on and off the interest like a spigot. When Georgetown continues to send the message to its fans and the local community that its products are either inferior (football), irrelevant (women's basketball) or not worth their time (lacrosse), then the fan base will rise and fall solely as a result of men's basketball and it will continue to suffer as a result. When GU athletics is only "relevant" four months during the year, you'll get a fan base worth four months a year. Creighton draws great for basketball, win or lose, but it's not unique to basketball. Being a Creighton fan is more than showing up to 15 home games in the winter. Saturday's baseball game with the Hoyas drew 8,258 despite it being broadcast statewide on over the air TV and well as the ESPN radio affiliate. By contrast, GU averages an announced crowd of 222 per baseball home game with zero media whatsoever. Are there more than 222 men, women or children in a metro area of 4.6 million who could support one of just two Division I baseball programs remaining in DC? Well, there ought to be. There is a small minority on this board who will suggest that any money spent on sports other than men's basketball is counterproductive and the more money basketball gets, the better. That's a very short-sighted approach. While we on this board have tended to view the new practice facility through the lens of men's basketball, the reality is that the facility is 80% plus about other sports. The women's basketball facilities are as good as the men's and both men's and women's soccer and lacrosse get significant upgrades in terms of locker rooms and team offices. The weight training and medical facilities - for use by all Georgetown athletes are world class. If anything, the men's basketball centered fund raising for the facility will have been used to pull forward the vast majority of GU sports.
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Post by aleutianhoya on May 9, 2016 8:36:43 GMT -5
except I don't think fan/base attendance is cured easily by a winning team. Even at our height our attendance was mediocre. In addition, it's very clear 1) the fans we have are very fickle good fan bases stick with their team through thick and thin. 2) No matter how decent our fan base becomes we will always be second fiddle to Maryland in the area and way down the pecking order behind the pro teams. As to academic standards how many of the schools listed in the article have them? Maybe Duke. We know the other schools don't. Would you call a school whose attendance ranked in the top 10 percent of Division I "mediocre"? In fact that was Georgetown from 2006-07 through 2012-13. The fan base issue is a direct result of a generation of alumni and local fans where Georgetown tacitly educated them that there is one (and only one) sport that matters and to ignore the rest. This leads to an "all or nothing" approach when it comes to support. You can't just turn on and off the interest like a spigot. When Georgetown continues to send the message to its fans and the local community that its products are either inferior (football), irrelevant (women's basketball) or not worth their time (lacrosse), then the fan base will rise and fall solely as a result of men's basketball and it will continue to suffer as a result. When GU athletics is only "relevant" four months during the year, you'll get a fan base worth four months a year. Creighton draws great for basketball, win or lose, but it's not unique to basketball. Being a Creighton fan is more than showing up to 15 home games in the winter. Saturday's baseball game with the Hoyas drew 8,258 despite it being broadcast statewide on over the air TV and well as the ESPN radio affiliate. By contrast, GU averages an announced crowd of 222 per baseball home game with zero media whatsoever. Are there more than 222 men, women or children in a metro area of 4.6 million who could support one of just two Division I baseball programs remaining in DC? Well, there ought to be. There is a small minority on this board who will suggest that any money spent on sports other than men's basketball is counterproductive and the more money basketball gets, the better. That's a very short-sighted approach. But you're comparing GU baseball to one of the great drawing baseball teams in America -- a team that plays in the city and stadium that are synonymous with college baseball. They don't outdraw the SEC/ACC/Pac-12 big boys, but they draw very well. That's not particularly fair. I don't think GU's average of 222 is actually much worse (or maybe not worse at all) than what, say, St. John's averages. They play in a far bigger metro area with limited schools playing competitive baseball -- just like Georgetown. And they have far, far, far, far more history of fielding good (sometimes very good) teams. 8 NCAA trips in the past 13 years. When you don't play on campus, you're simply not going to draw that well, particularly when your team isn't very good. We can talk about how small 222 is, but I don't think other similar schools are drawing any differently. Just to provide some context, when GU played a Sunday afternoon game at Butler, Butler drew 259. A Sunday game at St. John's? 236. It's not Georgetown. It's everywhere. People. Don't. Care. So, maybe "there ought to be" more than 222 people that want to support Georgetown baseball, but there aren't! And based on the experience of other schools, that's not really all that surprising. (And, not for nothing, you're sort of cherry-picking your stats when you talk about the DC metro area's population but then say Georgetown is just one of two baseball programs in DC proper. Obviously, Maryland and GMU also play.)
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