eagle54
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,471
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Post by eagle54 on Apr 7, 2016 23:29:55 GMT -5
At the last interregnum, the applicants in the public discussion were from Princeton, Air Force, and Rice. Just take a look at some of the recent Big East openings - not exactly top coaches in the mix. Mullin is unique to St. Johns, but take DePaul. They didn't have high level talent knocking the door down. I realize we are a more storied program than DePaul, but still, it shows that the Big East isn't the landing zone for top level coaches. And, even if you got a "young gun" like Wojo AND he was successful (not a given), there's no way he'd stay. Does anybody seriously think that if Wojo is successful at Marquette after 5-7 years that he'll stay there? No way. I think there is a balance between this logic. I think guys like Jay Wright who has been offered blue blood jobs already and stayed realized what they have. If you can get a great coach (preferably one who wants to live where you are located which we are in a desirable place) will see the benefit of having a bit more rope than what you'd have at Kentucky, UNC, Kansas, etc. Just look at how much rope our program offers. I can see someone like Wright making a lifetime out of Nova as I don't see him doing the NBA scene and at this point he's built something special in a place he wants to be.
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Apr 7, 2016 23:40:58 GMT -5
I don't think it's unfair that, if you're calling for someone to lose their job, that you have a better option or two in mind and a remotely salient reason for them as to why they're a better option. That has nothing to do with lawyer speak or conversational chatter. It has to do with people's livelihoods and the direction of the program that you're, supposedly, advocating for improving. You're basically saying just pick a guy from a recently (though not consistently more successful program) successful team and see what happens. I don't think it's crazy to think that others would take issue with that as short-sighted at best and kind of moronic at worst. EDIT: I don't know kc at all but he (I'm assuming) has a talent for ticking people off, getting under their skin, and sidetracking them to the point where they lose their focus of their original arguments. I'm willing to bet he's a pretty good lawyer based solely on those things. Shocking KC is a lawyer. Probably on the Hillary/Feel the Bern ticket. Why don't you layoff the good Dr. as I think he has some interesting points. Quit being a bully. You can think he has interesting points. It's not bullying to take issue with him not offering one better, defensible option when calling for a person's job. Then again, you and I have had this same conversation. You, however, offered up an option. Something drquigley has not done.
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eagle54
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,471
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Post by eagle54 on Apr 7, 2016 23:45:52 GMT -5
Shocking KC is a lawyer. Probably on the Hillary/Feel the Bern ticket. Why don't you layoff the good Dr. as I think he has some interesting points. Quit being a bully. You can think he has interesting points. It's not bullying to take issue with him not offering one better, defensible option when calling for a person's job. Agree to disagree on calling for someone's job at this point in the performance and the current landscape. I've been questioning that job since we sh.. the bed the last (what seems like 10 times in the postseason). Too think if this program wants to have the profile it has and that job shouldn't be challenged is naive and perhaps why we are where we are.
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Apr 7, 2016 23:51:23 GMT -5
You can think he has interesting points. It's not bullying to take issue with him not offering one better, defensible option when calling for a person's job. Agree to disagree on calling for someone's job at this point in the performance and the current landscape. I've been questioning that job since we sh.. the bed the last (what seems like 10 times in the postseason). Too think if this program wants to have the profile it has and that job shouldn't be challenged is naive and perhaps why we are where we are. Who said the job shouldn't be challenged? I never did. I said that he's not going anywhere because the University isn't buying him out. You choose to not read and that's fine. But from a human resources perspective, you shouldn't publicly call for a person to be fired without a viable option in mind. It took you months to offer one up because you didn't want to have the back and forth about individuals. I appreciated that you finally did. Drquigley should do the same because, if you believe an organization is heading in the wrong direction, you'd better have a better direction in mind before abandoning what wasn't the worst case scenario in the first place. If you and he think JT3 is the worst we can do, I'm not the one that's being naive.
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eagle54
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,471
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Post by eagle54 on Apr 8, 2016 0:05:28 GMT -5
Agree to disagree on calling for someone's job at this point in the performance and the current landscape. I've been questioning that job since we sh.. the bed the last (what seems like 10 times in the postseason). Too think if this program wants to have the profile it has and that job shouldn't be challenged is naive and perhaps why we are where we are. Who said the job shouldn't be challenged? I never did. I said that he's not going anywhere because the University isn't buying him out. You choose to not read and that's fine. But from a human resources perspective, you shouldn't publicly call for a person to be fired without a viable option in mind. It took you months to offer one up because you didn't want to have the back and forth about individuals. I appreciated that you finally did. Drquigley should do the same because, if you believe an organization is heading in the wrong direction, you'd better have a better direction in mind before abandoning what wasn't the worst case scenario in the first place. If you and he think JT3 is the worst we can do, I'm not the one that's being naive. TAS, I love you but I think you just like to argue. We are fans of this program as I'm assuming all the others posting are. We can all vent about whatever we want. If the coach isn't getting the job done we can call that out and say it should change. I thought you were better than the defense mechanism of this board to say "we'll who would be better?". Not my job, not your job, not Dr's job. That's the AD's job and the Universities job. However, we all know there are coaches that would love this job and be very aggressive in this job since they have their livelihood on the line. This coaching group has always come off as half caring whether true or not that's the perception. To continue to defend this setup makes me think half the posters here are relatives of the administration since there's only a few but they are so vocal to shoot anything down. Gestapo like. You obviously missed my new thread where I was trying to bring some look forward positivity to the board as I go into every season wanting to believe in the team.
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Post by aleutianhoya on Apr 8, 2016 6:58:03 GMT -5
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DFW HOYA
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by DFW HOYA on Apr 8, 2016 7:14:46 GMT -5
That seems somewhat implausible to me given Pastner's record. Pastner is 167–73 (.696) at Memphis and 61-39 in his last three seasons, which is slightly better than Georgetown's last three. Different situations, of course and different expectations, particularly with the Memphis fan base. Pastner's time is running out at Memphis and if he can get a new start at Tech, good for him. Brian Gregory's dismissal was noted in the quote referenced on ESPN.com from GT athletic director Mike Bobinski, formerly of Xavier: "At the end of the day, the evaluation for me came down to what does the future look like. Do we in fact have a clear path forward to greater success and higher levels of success in the years ahead, and my determination was, I didn't see it." Not a ringing endorsement for Gregory's next employer. At least Gregory will get another job somewhere. Louisiana Tech's Tyler Summitt will never be hired as a college coach again.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Apr 8, 2016 7:26:43 GMT -5
Who said JT3 couldn't get a job somewhere else? The fired coach was making $1.3M/yr. vs JT3's $3M/yr. The question is would he be paid $3M somewhere else. What's interesting is that another major basketball school is paying $1.3M, while we're paying $3M.
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SSHoya
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"Forget it Jake, it's Chinatown."
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Post by SSHoya on Apr 8, 2016 7:40:39 GMT -5
I don't think it's unfair that, if you're calling for someone to lose their job, that you have a better option or two in mind and a remotely salient reason for them as to why they're a better option. That has nothing to do with lawyer speak or conversational chatter. It has to do with people's livelihoods and the direction of the program that you're, supposedly, advocating for improving. You're basically saying just pick a guy from a recently (though not consistently more successful program) successful team and see what happens. I don't think it's crazy to think that others would take issue with that as short-sighted at best and kind of moronic at worst. EDIT: I don't know kc at all but he (I'm assuming) has a talent for ticking people off, getting under their skin, and sidetracking them to the point where they lose their focus of their original arguments. I'm willing to bet he's a pretty good lawyer based solely on those things. Shocking KC is a lawyer. Probably on the Hillary/Feel the Bern ticket. Why don't you layoff the good Dr. as I think he has some interesting points. Quit being a bully. If you think kc is "on the Hillary/Feel the Bern ticket" I guess you don't frequent the other topics on this board!
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2016 7:47:16 GMT -5
So Georgia Tech will be paying two coaches not to coach (Paul Hewitt and Brian Gregory) and the new guy to actually coach the current team. Ouch.
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Filo
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by Filo on Apr 8, 2016 8:14:16 GMT -5
Also interesting that GT went after Butler's Holtmann but he declined. Pay aside (because I haven't looked at the pay for each position), seems to me that moving from Butler to GT in the current bball landscape is not even a lateral move. Smart choice by Holtmann.
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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Apr 8, 2016 8:16:49 GMT -5
Hoping WRight stays. The conference needs strong coaches to build on and I think the current lot is pretty solid outside of a few exceptions (Depaul).
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Post by aleutianhoya on Apr 8, 2016 8:28:02 GMT -5
Who said JT3 couldn't get a job somewhere else? The fired coach was making $1.3M/yr. vs JT3's $3M/yr. The question is would he be paid $3M somewhere else. What's interesting is that another major basketball school is paying $1.3M, while we're paying $3M. Lots of people have made that argument, PR (though I'm not saying you were one of them). People say that no major college team would hire him. As to your salary point, another "major basketball school" is paying a coach without a track record of any kind at that school $1.3 million, and you can be sure that if Brian Gregory had gotten to the Final Four (or if Josh Pastner does within the years of his contract if he is hired) that his salary would have (or will) rise similarly. So, I don't think that's really interesting or surprising. It's simply what happens at the major college basketball level.
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Post by williambraskyiii on Apr 8, 2016 9:13:03 GMT -5
Who said JT3 couldn't get a job somewhere else? The fired coach was making $1.3M/yr. vs JT3's $3M/yr. The question is would he be paid $3M somewhere else. What's interesting is that another major basketball school is paying $1.3M, while we're paying $3M. Lots of people have made that argument, PR (though I'm not saying you were one of them). People say that no major college team would hire him. As to your salary point, another "major basketball school" is paying a coach without a track record of any kind at that school $1.3 million, and you can be sure that if Brian Gregory had gotten to the Final Four (or if Josh Pastner does within the years of his contract if he is hired) that his salary would have (or will) rise similarly. So, I don't think that's really interesting or surprising. It's simply what happens at the major college basketball level. I have made that argument and still believe that a P5 conference team wouldn't hire JTIII. His embarrassing underperformance in the postseason since '07 and his offensive system (which is easy to recruit against) are major red flags for programs. Not sure how Pastner is getting a look, however, so maybe I'm wrong.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Apr 8, 2016 9:17:51 GMT -5
Lots of people have made that argument, PR (though I'm not saying you were one of them). People say that no major college team would hire him. As to your salary point, another "major basketball school" is paying a coach without a track record of any kind at that school $1.3 million, and you can be sure that if Brian Gregory had gotten to the Final Four (or if Josh Pastner does within the years of his contract if he is hired) that his salary would have (or will) rise similarly. So, I don't think that's really interesting or surprising. It's simply what happens at the major college basketball level. I have made that argument and still believe that a P5 conference team wouldn't hire JTIII. His embarrassing underperformance in the postseason since '07 and his offensive system (which is easy to recruit against) are major red flags for programs. Not sure how Pastner is getting a look, however, so maybe I'm wrong. The thing is, there are a lot of bad to mediocre P5 schools who don't even come close to making the tournament every year. JT3 has done that, so why not hire him, even if his March success has been underwhelming? March success is totally irrelevant if your team doesn't get there in the first place. I think people focus way too much on the post-season when considering coaching. Sure, if you're Duke or Indiana you can try to find a coach with proven NCAA success, but the weaker P5 schools simply don't have the drawing power to get those (few) coaches. I mean take Rutgers, who hired Stonybrook's coach. If Rutgers (Big 10) is going to hire somebody like that, why wouldn't a similar school hire JT3? And, I think JT3 could do a LOT better than a bottom-dweller like Rutgers. If somebody like Johnny Dawkins could largely be a failure at Stanford, and immediately get rehired at UCF (granted, not a P5 job), why wouldn't someone much more successful than Dawkins be able to at least get a job with a "Power 5" school? I've made this point what feels like a million times, but there just aren't that many good, proven coaches out there who can get their team to the NCAA tournament more often than not. JT3 has done that; he is well respected and has run a clean program. He'd get plenty of interest.
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guru
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by guru on Apr 8, 2016 9:57:33 GMT -5
I have made that argument and still believe that a P5 conference team wouldn't hire JTIII. His embarrassing underperformance in the postseason since '07 and his offensive system (which is easy to recruit against) are major red flags for programs. Not sure how Pastner is getting a look, however, so maybe I'm wrong. The thing is, there are a lot of bad to mediocre P5 schools who don't even come close to making the tournament every year. JT3 has done that, so why not hire him, even if his March success has been underwhelming? March success is totally irrelevant if your team doesn't get there in the first place. I think people focus way too much on the post-season when considering coaching. Sure, if you're Duke or Indiana you can try to find a coach with proven NCAA success, but the weaker P5 schools simply don't have the drawing power to get those (few) coaches. I mean take Rutgers, who hired Stonybrook's coach. If Rutgers (Big 10) is going to hire somebody like that, why wouldn't a similar school hire JT3? And, I think JT3 could do a LOT better than a bottom-dweller like Rutgers. If somebody like Johnny Dawkins could largely be a failure at Stanford, and immediately get rehired at UCF (granted, not a P5 job), why wouldn't someone much more successful than Dawkins be able to at least get a job with a "Power 5" school? I've made this point what feels like a million times, but there just aren't that many good, proven coaches out there who can get their team to the NCAA tournament more often than not. JT3 has done that; he is well respected and has run a clean program. He'd get plenty of interest. He may get interest from P5 bottom feeders - but at a fraction of his current salary. The guy is paid as a top 10 coach - he's barely top 75. Side note: Do you feel it absolutely necessary to respond to every post that hints, even mildly, that JT3 may not be such a great coach? You seem fixated.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Apr 8, 2016 10:26:09 GMT -5
He may get interest from P5 bottom feeders - but at a fraction of his current salary. The guy is paid as a top 10 coach - he's barely top 75. Side note: Do you feel it absolutely necessary to respond to every post that hints, even mildly, that JT3 may not be such a great coach? You seem fixated. I agree JT3 would get paid less somewhere else, but probably still a fair amount. JT3 might not be a top 25 coach, but to argue there are 50 or 75 better coaches out there really ignores his record and the record of many other coaches out there. But, I am sure you disagree, which is fine. No need to argue this for the 10th time. Side note: guru, if you have a personal problem with me, PM me and we can discuss it. If you think I post too much, ignore me. I'm not sure why, in the last few weeks, a few people here feel a need to basically tell me how to go about posting on HoyaTalk. There are plenty of people who vehemently disagree and constantly post things with their own opinions. I don't see you telling them to stop. And, if one were to actually read what I write elsewhere, it would be clear that there are areas where JT3 could certainly (and needs to) improve (defense, fouling). The fact that I think JT3 should coach the team next year doesn't mean that I think it's all wonderful.
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NCHoya
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Post by NCHoya on Apr 8, 2016 10:34:23 GMT -5
Also interesting that GT went after Butler's Holtmann but he declined. Pay aside (because I haven't looked at the pay for each position), seems to me that moving from Butler to GT in the current bball landscape is not even a lateral move. Smart choice by Holtmann. Definitely a smart move by Holtmann. Being in the bottom-half of the ACC is a bad situation for a coach. Very difficult to move into the upper half and you get 4-5 years to do it max at a place like GaTech.
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njhoya78
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Post by njhoya78 on Apr 8, 2016 11:44:28 GMT -5
If you don't ordinarily peruse other threads, you might be surprised to learn that Georgia Tech has a 3:30pm press conference scheduled to announce that they have hired Josh Pastner as their next head coach, away from Memphis.
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boxout05
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
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Post by boxout05 on Apr 8, 2016 11:53:37 GMT -5
More than anything, a bunch of these recent moves were about resetting clocks and not finding better jobs. Buzz Williams, Kevin Stallings, Josh Pastner, even Jamie Dixon too a much lesser extent... their schools/fanbases were running out of patience. From their perspective, better to start over with a fresh 3-4 years at a weaker school than be on the hot seat where they were. Schools were probably relieved they won't have to fire these guys and pay them to do nothing.
And if you think JTIII couldn't at least make a similar move, you're wrong.
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