Big Dog
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Post by Big Dog on Apr 3, 2015 10:35:18 GMT -5
f people want to talk about coaches, let's talk about coaches. Here are the ones that I suppose I would say today that I would hire if it was offered to me to replace JTIII (I'm going to ignore moral quandaries here--honestly I don't think I could accept Calipari has head coach)
No. 14: Tony Bennett, Virginia No. 7: Bo Ryan, Wisconsin No. 6: Bill Self, Kansas No. 5: Rick Pitino, Louisville No. 4: Mike Krzyzewski, Duke No. 3: Tom Izzo, Michigan State No. 2: John Calipari, Kentucky No. 1: Billy Donovan, Florida
That's it, people. Everybody else is no better than coin flip. Shaka? Maybe, but are you 100% certain he could do more here than III has done? They've both been to 1 FF. VCU has gone out early two straight years. Jay Wright? No. Kevin Ollie? Of course not. Sean Miller? What's the case for that? Gregg Marshall? Of course not. Mark Few? How many Final Fours has he been to? Mick Cronin is at #28!!!
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bmartin
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Post by bmartin on Apr 3, 2015 10:43:37 GMT -5
NCAA tournament wins are not the only or the most important measure of a coach's value to a university. He got a big raise after the Final Four, but not just because of the result but because it brought Georgetown millions more dollars from donors, season tickets, merchandise sales, and more applicants and national publicity. JTIII is still taking care of that part of the business, raising funds for the new facility, engaging with alumni donors, scheduling Kansas and Syracuse and UConn to enhance the season ticket draw after the conference realignment. A coach is overpaid if the major program donors stop writing checks. Not because a few grumps show up every March to rant about him.
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KHoyaNYC
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Post by KHoyaNYC on Apr 3, 2015 11:31:27 GMT -5
NCAA tournament wins are not the only or the most important measure of a coach's value to a university. He got a big raise after the Final Four, but not just because of the result but because it brought Georgetown millions more dollars from donors, season tickets, merchandise sales, and more applicants and national publicity. JTIII is still taking care of that part of the business, raising funds for the new facility, engaging with alumni donors, scheduling Kansas and Syracuse and UConn to enhance the season ticket draw after the conference realignment. A coach is overpaid if the major program donors stop writing checks. Not because a few grumps show up every March to rant about him. Where is the information on the amount of donations the program is receiving? I'd be curious to see that number year over year.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Apr 3, 2015 11:55:14 GMT -5
NCAA tournament wins are not the only or the most important measure of a coach's value to a university. He got a big raise after the Final Four, but not just because of the result but because it brought Georgetown millions more dollars from donors, season tickets, merchandise sales, and more applicants and national publicity. JTIII is still taking care of that part of the business, raising funds for the new facility, engaging with alumni donors, scheduling Kansas and Syracuse and UConn to enhance the season ticket draw after the conference realignment. A coach is overpaid if the major program donors stop writing checks. Not because a few grumps show up every March to rant about him. Appreciate the optimism but the examples are flawed. 1. Season tickets have declined over the last 2-3 years after the Big East downsized. Average attendance was higher in 2006 than 2015. 2. Georgetown's rank in merchandise sales (royalties) have been flat for years. Football visibility drives merchandise sales and Georgetown is uncomfortable with doing this. 3. More applicants? Different subject, but...no.
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daveg023
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Post by daveg023 on Apr 3, 2015 12:21:01 GMT -5
This thread has had me thinking how Gary Williams' time at Maryland is somewhat similar to JTIII. Gary, a Maryland alum, coached there from 1989-2011. His 20+ year tenure peaked in the middle of that run with his back to back Final 4 appearances and obviously the 2002 title. He coached for 8 more years and only made one more Sweet 16 (2003). Ultimately the official word in 2011 was Gary "retired" but depending on who you talk to, this was not his decision alone.
While JTIII, isn't an alum, he's arguably tied more to the school than any non-alum could be. I know Gary's peak came in the middle of his tenure, whereas JTIII's (2006 & 2007) was in the beginning of his time at Georgetown, but when you compare both guys' 8-10 years following these "peaks", the results are pretty similiar:
Gary Williams (2003-2011) 5 NCAA bids in 9 years 3 NIT bids 1 Sweet 16 appearance (2003) 1 ACC regular season title 1 ACC tournament title 5 20-win seasons (other 4 were all 19 wins)
JTIII (2008-2015) 6 NCAA bids in 8 years 2 NIT bids 1 Sweet 16 appearance (2008) 2 Big East regular season titles 0 Big East tournament titles 6 20-win seasons
I'd take JTIII's run over Gary's, but it's pretty close (though Gary had the extra goodwill of a Title and additional Final 4). I guess my point is at Maryland, these results from a former alum, who had brought them two Final 4s and a National Title, was deemed disappointing, and led the two sides amicably ending their arrangement. Whereas at Georgetown, god forbid we even question if JTIII should feel some heat ever for recent results.
Again, I'm not suggesting we get another coach, but the JTIII defenders need to be a little more reasonable and take off the blue and gray colored glasses. The argument that we pay him what we do for his ability to run a clean and respected program is a bit tired. We could literally pay anyone his salary and tell them postseason success doesn't matter, so long as the program isn't involved in a scandal. I'm sure many a coach could maintain the same level of integrity and win games along the way based on the program's name and money we commit to the team.
I'm not diminishing the fact that JTIII is as good an ambassador as we could have, but that alone isn't deserving of Top 10 coaching status. This is big-time college basketball with lots of money spent and demanded. Ultimately wins and losses (especially in the postseason) will go a lot further to raise one's status in the profession than anything else.
JTIII is a good coach, and honestly probably one of the better coaches out there for us, but we need to be real in our evaluation. Even factoring in the integrity piece, he's not a Top 10 or even Top 20 coach, and given that, he's a bit overpaid. Does me saying this mean I am demanding he be fired? No. I'm just trying to be realistic in the evaluation of his results, salary, and position among his peers.
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bmartin
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Post by bmartin on Apr 3, 2015 12:27:31 GMT -5
NCAA tournament wins are not the only or the most important measure of a coach's value to a university. He got a big raise after the Final Four, but not just because of the result but because it brought Georgetown millions more dollars from donors, season tickets, merchandise sales, and more applicants and national publicity. JTIII is still taking care of that part of the business, raising funds for the new facility, engaging with alumni donors, scheduling Kansas and Syracuse and UConn to enhance the season ticket draw after the conference realignment. A coach is overpaid if the major program donors stop writing checks. Not because a few grumps show up every March to rant about him. Appreciate the optimism but the examples are flawed. 1. Season tickets have declined over the last 2-3 years after the Big East downsized. Average attendance was higher in 2006 than 2015. 2. Georgetown's rank in merchandise sales (royalties) have been flat for years. Football visibility drives merchandise sales and Georgetown is uncomfortable with doing this. 3. More applicants? Different subject, but...no. I guess you did not read my post.
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This Just In
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Post by This Just In on Apr 3, 2015 12:30:47 GMT -5
JT3 is gettin overpaid - he got raise after his final four that amounts to be this, and got further extension after we lost to FGFU. Add the job security to his already top 10 amounted salary, which other coaches at other big time basketball schools do not have - other than maybe coach K - he definitely got a good deal - possibly the best 5 contracts in the country. Except he definitely has not lived up to his salary after 2007. I think the pundits who defend JT3 believe that march tournament game is deemed just like another game in a regular season - random losses here and there, but whatever, it does not matter because we got this many wins in the regular season and thus, we got a high seed. That alone is a successful season yay! The people who think he is getting overpaid value each tournament game greater than those games in the regular season. If game against Depaul during the regular season was a quiz that is worth of 3% of your final grade, then the game against FGFU is a final exam that is worth of 50% of your grade. Aside from keeping allegedly clean program (which cannot be fully confirmed, but believed so, since there has been no NCAA violation) and not being a trouble-maker off-court, JT3's accomplishment in terms of basketball has not been very strong to deserve top 5 best contract in the country. but i guess we will agree to disagree here. Where would you rank JTIII as far the the best coaches in the New Big East?
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NCHoya
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Post by NCHoya on Apr 3, 2015 12:35:20 GMT -5
This thread has had me thinking how Gary Williams' time at Maryland is somewhat similar to JTIII. Gary, a Maryland alum, coached there from 1989-2011. His 20+ year tenure peaked in the middle of that run with his back to back Final 4 appearances and obviously the 2002 title. He coached for 8 more years and only made one more Sweet 16 (2003). Ultimately the official word in 2011 was Gary "retired" but depending on who you talk to, this was not his decision alone. While JTIII, isn't an alum, he's arguably tied more to the school than any non-alum could be. I know Gary's peak came in the middle of his tenure, whereas JTIII's (2006 & 2007) was in the beginning of his time at Georgetown, but when you compare both guys' 8-10 years following these "peaks", the results are pretty similiar: Gary Williams (2003-2011) 5 NCAA bids in 9 years 3 NIT bids 1 Sweet 16 appearance (2003) 1 ACC regular season title 1 ACC tournament title 5 20-win seasons (other 4 were all 19 wins) JTIII (2008-2015) 6 NCAA bids in 8 years 2 NIT bids 1 Sweet 16 appearance (2008) 2 Big East regular season titles 0 Big East tournament titles 6 20-win seasons I'd take JTIII's run over Gary's, but it's pretty close (though Gary had the extra goodwill of a Title and additional Final 4). I guess my point is at Maryland, these results from a former alum, who had brought them two Final 4s and a National Title, was deemed disappointing, and led the two sides amicably ending their arrangement. Whereas at Georgetown, god forbid we even question if JTIII should feel some heat ever for recent results. Again, I'm not suggesting we get another coach, but the JTIII defenders need to be a little more reasonable and take off the blue and gray colored glasses. The argument that we pay him what we do for his ability to run a clean and respected program is a bit tired. We could literally pay anyone his salary and tell them postseason success doesn't matter, so long as the program isn't involved in a scandal. I'm sure many a coach could maintain the same level of integrity and win games along the way based on the program's name and money we commit to the team. I'm not diminishing the fact that JTIII is as good an ambassador as we could have, but that alone isn't deserving of Top 10 coaching status. This is big-time college basketball with lots of money spent and demanded. Ultimately wins and losses (especially in the postseason) will go a lot further to raise one's status in the profession than anything else. JTIII is a good coach, and honestly probably one of the better coaches out there for us, but we need to be real in our evaluation. Even factoring in the integrity piece, he's not a Top 10 or even Top 20 coach, and given that, he's a bit overpaid. Does me saying this mean I am demanding he be fired? No. I'm just trying to be realistic in the evaluation of his results, salary, and position among his peers. Amen, thank you for putting this point across so much better than I could.
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Filo
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Post by Filo on Apr 3, 2015 12:35:54 GMT -5
This thread has had me thinking how Gary Williams' time at Maryland is somewhat similar to JTIII. Gary, a Maryland alum, coached there from 1989-2011. His 20+ year tenure peaked in the middle of that run with his back to back Final 4 appearances and obviously the 2002 title. He coached for 8 more years and only made one more Sweet 16 (2003). Ultimately the official word in 2011 was Gary "retired" but depending on who you talk to, this was not his decision alone. While JTIII, isn't an alum, he's arguably tied more to the school than any non-alum could be. I know Gary's peak came in the middle of his tenure, whereas JTIII's (2006 & 2007) was in the beginning of his time at Georgetown, but when you compare both guys' 8-10 years following these "peaks", the results are pretty similiar: Gary Williams (2003-2011) 5 NCAA bids in 9 years 3 NIT bids 1 Sweet 16 appearance (2003) 1 ACC regular season title 1 ACC tournament title 5 20-win seasons (other 4 were all 19 wins) JTIII (2008-2015) 6 NCAA bids in 8 years 2 NIT bids 1 Sweet 16 appearance (2008) 2 Big East regular season titles 0 Big East tournament titles 6 20-win seasons I'd take JTIII's run over Gary's, but it's pretty close (though Gary had the extra goodwill of a Title and additional Final 4). I guess my point is at Maryland, these results from a former alum, who had brought them two Final 4s and a National Title, was deemed disappointing, and led the two sides amicably ending their arrangement. Whereas at Georgetown, god forbid we even question if JTIII should feel some heat ever for recent results. Again, I'm not suggesting we get another coach, but the JTIII defenders need to be a little more reasonable and take off the blue and gray colored glasses. The argument that we pay him what we do for his ability to run a clean and respected program is a bit tired. We could literally pay anyone his salary and tell them postseason success doesn't matter, so long as the program isn't involved in a scandal. I'm sure many a coach could maintain the same level of integrity and win games along the way based on the program's name and money we commit to the team. I'm not diminishing the fact that JTIII is as good an ambassador as we could have, but that alone isn't deserving of Top 10 coaching status. This is big-time college basketball with lots of money spent and demanded. Ultimately wins and losses (especially in the postseason) will go a lot further to raise one's status in the profession than anything else. JTIII is a good coach, and honestly probably one of the better coaches out there for us, but we need to be real in our evaluation. Even factoring in the integrity piece, he's not a Top 10 or even Top 20 coach, and given that, he's a bit overpaid. Does me saying this mean I am demanding he be fired? No. I'm just trying to be realistic in the evaluation of his results, salary, and position among his peers. Don't even know where to begin with this one. Perhaps the random point-in-time comparison of the then 58-year-old Williams to the then 42-year-old JTIII? Eh, never mind, I don't have the energy.
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daveg023
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Post by daveg023 on Apr 3, 2015 12:43:21 GMT -5
This thread has had me thinking how Gary Williams' time at Maryland is somewhat similar to JTIII. Gary, a Maryland alum, coached there from 1989-2011. His 20+ year tenure peaked in the middle of that run with his back to back Final 4 appearances and obviously the 2002 title. He coached for 8 more years and only made one more Sweet 16 (2003). Ultimately the official word in 2011 was Gary "retired" but depending on who you talk to, this was not his decision alone. While JTIII, isn't an alum, he's arguably tied more to the school than any non-alum could be. I know Gary's peak came in the middle of his tenure, whereas JTIII's (2006 & 2007) was in the beginning of his time at Georgetown, but when you compare both guys' 8-10 years following these "peaks", the results are pretty similiar: Gary Williams (2003-2011) 5 NCAA bids in 9 years 3 NIT bids 1 Sweet 16 appearance (2003) 1 ACC regular season title 1 ACC tournament title 5 20-win seasons (other 4 were all 19 wins) JTIII (2008-2015) 6 NCAA bids in 8 years 2 NIT bids 1 Sweet 16 appearance (2008) 2 Big East regular season titles 0 Big East tournament titles 6 20-win seasons I'd take JTIII's run over Gary's, but it's pretty close (though Gary had the extra goodwill of a Title and additional Final 4). I guess my point is at Maryland, these results from a former alum, who had brought them two Final 4s and a National Title, was deemed disappointing, and led the two sides amicably ending their arrangement. Whereas at Georgetown, god forbid we even question if JTIII should feel some heat ever for recent results. Again, I'm not suggesting we get another coach, but the JTIII defenders need to be a little more reasonable and take off the blue and gray colored glasses. The argument that we pay him what we do for his ability to run a clean and respected program is a bit tired. We could literally pay anyone his salary and tell them postseason success doesn't matter, so long as the program isn't involved in a scandal. I'm sure many a coach could maintain the same level of integrity and win games along the way based on the program's name and money we commit to the team. I'm not diminishing the fact that JTIII is as good an ambassador as we could have, but that alone isn't deserving of Top 10 coaching status. This is big-time college basketball with lots of money spent and demanded. Ultimately wins and losses (especially in the postseason) will go a lot further to raise one's status in the profession than anything else. JTIII is a good coach, and honestly probably one of the better coaches out there for us, but we need to be real in our evaluation. Even factoring in the integrity piece, he's not a Top 10 or even Top 20 coach, and given that, he's a bit overpaid. Does me saying this mean I am demanding he be fired? No. I'm just trying to be realistic in the evaluation of his results, salary, and position among his peers. Don't even know where to begin with this one. Perhaps the random point-in-time comparison of the then 58-year-old Williams to the then 42-year-old JTIII? Eh, never mind, I don't have the energy. What do ages have to do with the argument? Granted given JTIII's age, there is no "retirement" option, which lets both sides save face, but that wasn't the point. The point was everyone who is calling JTIII a Top 10 coach, needs to look no further than our neighbor to the north where an eerily similar run, following his peak was viewed as disappointing. Here we are going out of our way to defend that same resume and claim it warrants Top 10 status because we've achieved these middling results while upholding our integrity. Did I miss the NCAA sanctions that were placed on Maryland under Gary? I just don't understand why it's considered bashing our coach to say he is overpaid based on his recent results and his standing in the profession.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Apr 3, 2015 12:45:17 GMT -5
This thread has had me thinking how Gary Williams' time at Maryland is somewhat similar to JTIII. Gary, a Maryland alum, coached there from 1989-2011. His 20+ year tenure peaked in the middle of that run with his back to back Final 4 appearances and obviously the 2002 title. He coached for 8 more years and only made one more Sweet 16 (2003). Ultimately the official word in 2011 was Gary "retired" but depending on who you talk to, this was not his decision alone. While JTIII, isn't an alum, he's arguably tied more to the school than any non-alum could be. I know Gary's peak came in the middle of his tenure, whereas JTIII's (2006 & 2007) was in the beginning of his time at Georgetown, but when you compare both guys' 8-10 years following these "peaks", the results are pretty similiar: Gary Williams (2003-2011) 5 NCAA bids in 9 years 3 NIT bids 1 Sweet 16 appearance (2003) 1 ACC regular season title 1 ACC tournament title 5 20-win seasons (other 4 were all 19 wins) JTIII (2008-2015) 6 NCAA bids in 8 years 2 NIT bids 1 Sweet 16 appearance (2008) 2 Big East regular season titles 0 Big East tournament titles 6 20-win seasons I'd take JTIII's run over Gary's, but it's pretty close (though Gary had the extra goodwill of a Title and additional Final 4). I guess my point is at Maryland, these results from a former alum, who had brought them two Final 4s and a National Title, was deemed disappointing, and led the two sides amicably ending their arrangement. Whereas at Georgetown, god forbid we even question if JTIII should feel some heat ever for recent results. Again, I'm not suggesting we get another coach, but the JTIII defenders need to be a little more reasonable and take off the blue and gray colored glasses. The argument that we pay him what we do for his ability to run a clean and respected program is a bit tired. We could literally pay anyone his salary and tell them postseason success doesn't matter, so long as the program isn't involved in a scandal. I'm sure many a coach could maintain the same level of integrity and win games along the way based on the program's name and money we commit to the team. I'm not diminishing the fact that JTIII is as good an ambassador as we could have, but that alone isn't deserving of Top 10 coaching status. This is big-time college basketball with lots of money spent and demanded. Ultimately wins and losses (especially in the postseason) will go a lot further to raise one's status in the profession than anything else. JTIII is a good coach, and honestly probably one of the better coaches out there for us, but we need to be real in our evaluation. Even factoring in the integrity piece, he's not a Top 10 or even Top 20 coach, and given that, he's a bit overpaid. Does me saying this mean I am demanding he be fired? No. I'm just trying to be realistic in the evaluation of his results, salary, and position among his peers. Don't even know where to begin with this one. Perhaps the random point-in-time comparison of the then 58-year-old Williams to the then 42-year-old JTIII? Eh, never mind, I don't have the energy. To complete this air tight parallel, can you post the numerous photos of a very over-served JTIII partying it up at Dewey Beach that I must have missed?
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This Just In
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Post by This Just In on Apr 3, 2015 12:47:23 GMT -5
This thread has had me thinking how Gary Williams' time at Maryland is somewhat similar to JTIII. Gary, a Maryland alum, coached there from 1989-2011. His 20+ year tenure peaked in the middle of that run with his back to back Final 4 appearances and obviously the 2002 title. He coached for 8 more years and only made one more Sweet 16 (2003). Ultimately the official word in 2011 was Gary "retired" but depending on who you talk to, this was not his decision alone. While JTIII, isn't an alum, he's arguably tied more to the school than any non-alum could be. I know Gary's peak came in the middle of his tenure, whereas JTIII's (2006 & 2007) was in the beginning of his time at Georgetown, but when you compare both guys' 8-10 years following these "peaks", the results are pretty similiar: Gary Williams (2003-2011) 5 NCAA bids in 9 years 3 NIT bids 1 Sweet 16 appearance (2003) 1 ACC regular season title 1 ACC tournament title 5 20-win seasons (other 4 were all 19 wins) JTIII (2008-2015) 6 NCAA bids in 8 years 2 NIT bids 1 Sweet 16 appearance (2008) 2 Big East regular season titles 0 Big East tournament titles 6 20-win seasons I'd take JTIII's run over Gary's, but it's pretty close (though Gary had the extra goodwill of a Title and additional Final 4). I guess my point is at Maryland, these results from a former alum, who had brought them two Final 4s and a National Title, was deemed disappointing, and led the two sides amicably ending their arrangement. Whereas at Georgetown, god forbid we even question if JTIII should feel some heat ever for recent results. Again, I'm not suggesting we get another coach, but the JTIII defenders need to be a little more reasonable and take off the blue and gray colored glasses. The argument that we pay him what we do for his ability to run a clean and respected program is a bit tired. We could literally pay anyone his salary and tell them postseason success doesn't matter, so long as the program isn't involved in a scandal. I'm sure many a coach could maintain the same level of integrity and win games along the way based on the program's name and money we commit to the team. I'm not diminishing the fact that JTIII is as good an ambassador as we could have, but that alone isn't deserving of Top 10 coaching status. This is big-time college basketball with lots of money spent and demanded. Ultimately wins and losses (especially in the postseason) will go a lot further to raise one's status in the profession than anything else. JTIII is a good coach, and honestly probably one of the better coaches out there for us, but we need to be real in our evaluation. Even factoring in the integrity piece, he's not a Top 10 or even Top 20 coach, and given that, he's a bit overpaid. Does me saying this mean I am demanding he be fired? No. I'm just trying to be realistic in the evaluation of his results, salary, and position among his peers. This message board swings very conservative when it comes to discussing the issues of JTIII. As an alum of Maryland, were the complaints of Gary Williams last 8 years meet with the same type of conservatism or was there more of an common agreement in regards to issues that Gary Williams had?
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daveg023
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Post by daveg023 on Apr 3, 2015 12:52:07 GMT -5
You both are missing the point. All I'm saying is at Maryland these results were deemed as disappointing and it led to them moving on from a "Maryland" guy.
Do I think JTIII is a better man than Gary? No doubt. But again this is big time college basketball (or at least I thought it was) and ultimately on-court results weigh a little bit heavier than "saint-status". Having a good man lead your program is a great thing, but it shouldn't be the end-all-be-all. It needs to be combined with success on the court and in March.
Otherwise lets just hire a Jesuit to lead the team, and pay him JTIII's salary, because I'm sure he'd never put us at risk of tarnishing the program's good name. Accordingly to you, if he does this, no matter what we pay him, he wouldn't be overpaid.
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guru
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Post by guru on Apr 3, 2015 12:55:38 GMT -5
You both are missing the point. All I'm saying is at Maryland these results were deemed as disappointing and it led to them moving on from a "Maryland" guy. Do I think JTIII is a better man than Gary? No doubt. But again this is big time college basketball (or at least I thought it was) and ultimately on-court results weigh a little bit heavier than "saint-status". Having a good man lead your program is a great thing, but it shouldn't be the end-all-be-all. It needs to be combined with success on the court and in March. Otherwise lets just hire a Jesuit to lead the team, and pay him JTIII's salary, because I'm sure he'd never put us at risk of tarnishing the program's good name. Accordingly to you, if he does this, no matter what we pay him, he wouldn't be overpaid. Well, the age issue is a huge one in your comparison. Williams was drifting toward retirement, and his best years were clearly behind him. He could be moved aside gracefully. JT3 is nowhere near retirement, and it's certainly not outlandish to think his best years are still ahead of him. And as I recall, there were tons of Gary supporters among the Terps dunderheaded fanbase, even at the end.
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daveg023
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Post by daveg023 on Apr 3, 2015 13:01:05 GMT -5
You both are missing the point. All I'm saying is at Maryland these results were deemed as disappointing and it led to them moving on from a "Maryland" guy. Do I think JTIII is a better man than Gary? No doubt. But again this is big time college basketball (or at least I thought it was) and ultimately on-court results weigh a little bit heavier than "saint-status". Having a good man lead your program is a great thing, but it shouldn't be the end-all-be-all. It needs to be combined with success on the court and in March. Otherwise lets just hire a Jesuit to lead the team, and pay him JTIII's salary, because I'm sure he'd never put us at risk of tarnishing the program's good name. Accordingly to you, if he does this, no matter what we pay him, he wouldn't be overpaid. Well, the age issue is a huge one in your comparison. Williams was drifting toward retirement, and his best years were clearly behind him. He could be moved aside gracefully. JT3 is nowhere near retirement, and it's certainly not outlandish to think his best years are still ahead of him. And as I recall, there were tons of Gary supporters among the Terps dunderheaded fanbase, even at the end. Ok Ill buy that argument that there is still upside with the younger guy. Again I'm not anti-JTIII but the supporters are so strong and unyielding and I love a good debate I guess.
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NCHoya
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Post by NCHoya on Apr 3, 2015 13:01:42 GMT -5
Don't even know where to begin with this one. Perhaps the random point-in-time comparison of the then 58-year-old Williams to the then 42-year-old JTIII? Eh, never mind, I don't have the energy. What do ages have to do with the argument? Granted given JTIII's age, there is no "retirement" option, which lets both sides save face, but that wasn't the point. The point was everyone who is calling JTIII a Top 10 coach, needs to look no further than our neighbor to the north where an eerily similar run, following his peak was viewed as disappointing. Here we are going out of our way to defend that same resume and claim it warrants Top 10 status because we've achieved these middling results while upholding our integrity. Did I miss the NCAA sanctions that were placed on Maryland under Gary? I just don't understand why it's considered bashing our coach to say he is overpaid based on his recent results and his standing in the profession. Daveg, do not waste your time. Those who think III is a top 10-15 coach are not going to be swayed. It is clear there are two camps, neither moving, both justified since this is completely subjective. Those who see III as the perfect fit for the program and therefore a Top 15 coach regardless of March flops, recruiting holes or comparisons to peers. The other camp is taking any personal feeling toward III out of the discussion and looking at this more objectively and seeing results that do not add up to that type of salary. One thing is clear III has definitely entrenched himself into the identity of Georgetown well beyond basketball. If this board reflects the overall fanbase, he does have one of the most secure jobs in the country.
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daveg023
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Post by daveg023 on Apr 3, 2015 13:14:37 GMT -5
I know. Apparently it doesnt stop me from trying. I guess I should have went to Georgetown for law instead of finance...
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Post by wrestlemania on Apr 3, 2015 13:16:33 GMT -5
This thread has had me thinking how Gary Williams' time at Maryland is somewhat similar to JTIII. Gary, a Maryland alum, coached there from 1989-2011. His 20+ year tenure peaked in the middle of that run with his back to back Final 4 appearances and obviously the 2002 title. He coached for 8 more years and only made one more Sweet 16 (2003). Ultimately the official word in 2011 was Gary "retired" but depending on who you talk to, this was not his decision alone. While JTIII, isn't an alum, he's arguably tied more to the school than any non-alum could be. I know Gary's peak came in the middle of his tenure, whereas JTIII's (2006 & 2007) was in the beginning of his time at Georgetown, but when you compare both guys' 8-10 years following these "peaks", the results are pretty similiar: Gary Williams (2003-2011) 5 NCAA bids in 9 years 3 NIT bids 1 Sweet 16 appearance (2003) 1 ACC regular season title 1 ACC tournament title 5 20-win seasons (other 4 were all 19 wins) JTIII (2008-2015) 6 NCAA bids in 8 years 2 NIT bids 1 Sweet 16 appearance (2008) 2 Big East regular season titles 0 Big East tournament titles 6 20-win seasons I'd take JTIII's run over Gary's, but it's pretty close (though Gary had the extra goodwill of a Title and additional Final 4). I guess my point is at Maryland, these results from a former alum, who had brought them two Final 4s and a National Title, was deemed disappointing, and led the two sides amicably ending their arrangement. Whereas at Georgetown, god forbid we even question if JTIII should feel some heat ever for recent results. Again, I'm not suggesting we get another coach, but the JTIII defenders need to be a little more reasonable and take off the blue and gray colored glasses. The argument that we pay him what we do for his ability to run a clean and respected program is a bit tired. We could literally pay anyone his salary and tell them postseason success doesn't matter, so long as the program isn't involved in a scandal. I'm sure many a coach could maintain the same level of integrity and win games along the way based on the program's name and money we commit to the team. I'm not diminishing the fact that JTIII is as good an ambassador as we could have, but that alone isn't deserving of Top 10 coaching status. This is big-time college basketball with lots of money spent and demanded. Ultimately wins and losses (especially in the postseason) will go a lot further to raise one's status in the profession than anything else. JTIII is a good coach, and honestly probably one of the better coaches out there for us, but we need to be real in our evaluation. Even factoring in the integrity piece, he's not a Top 10 or even Top 20 coach, and given that, he's a bit overpaid. Does me saying this mean I am demanding he be fired? No. I'm just trying to be realistic in the evaluation of his results, salary, and position among his peers. Your "anyone could do it" argument is naïve -- were that true, Esherick would still be coaching the team. The program's "name" means less than you think it does -- it's 2015, and the players on whom GU built its brand no longer play basketball. The reality is that many of JTIII's peers would not take the Georgetown job even if offered. The program's limitations are well documented. If we are overpaying him, it is because the drop to the next level of realistic candidates is steep. Either you give him the money or take your chances with a $500K/year buy-and-try in a declining conference and facilities that, while improving, still do not compare with those of the top programs in the country. No one really knows for sure how that would work out, but I suspect we'd be closer to the bottom than the top over the longer term. Then again I thought Esh would get it done which shows how much I know.
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Post by aleutianhoya on Apr 3, 2015 13:37:23 GMT -5
I know. Apparently it doesnt stop me from trying. I guess I should have went to Georgetown for law instead of finance... It's not a ridiculous comparison, but the way you present the stats completely misrepresents their relative regular season success. Beginning in 2003, here were the seeds Maryland got: 6, 4, --, --, 4, --, 10, 4, and -- Georgetown's? 2, --, 3, 6, 3, 2, --, 4 Twice we were a 2 and twice a three (basically a top 5-15 team). That means that in the nine years you identify, Maryland never achieved a seed as good as what we received in half of the years you identify. That's significant! After his Final Four, Gary never went more than two straight years with an NCAA bid; we've only missed a total of two years. Basically, the year we just had was the most successful year that Gary had in that time frame. Sure, there are people who are blindly supportive of III, but that's not what this is. My argument (and others') is that regular season success -- and the relative degrees of regular season success -- are a significant factor. So, don't take the wrong message out of people disagreeing. Obviously, there are people for whom NCAAT success is the only thing that matters; I can't defeat that line of thinking. But if III had a five year period where he missed the tourney three times, got a 10 seed another time (i.e., barely made it) and got a four the other? You can bet a lot of his support would diminish. Oh, and it's not just an age thing. His recruiting really suffered toward the end (which may or may not have been related to his age). That's a factor in evaluating how to go forward too. Hard to argue with our recruiting the past two years.
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FLHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by FLHoya on Apr 3, 2015 13:58:33 GMT -5
You both are missing the point. All I'm saying is at Maryland these results were deemed as disappointing and it led to them moving on from a "Maryland" guy. The trajectory of Maryland's basketball program in Gary's final season was in a terrible place. Yeah, I know they'd made the NCAA's the year before, but Gary's age, inattention/dislike of recruiting, and general lack of give-a-crap really took their toll on that dumpster fire in 2011. My standard is miss the NCAAs three years in a row and you should be done, but that's probably influenced by being a fan of a smaller school with a history of stability/family in the coaching ranks. If I were at a BCS school, maybe I think differently...those schools move faster on these things. I say that because I asked a while ago for examples of schools that fired coaches in the year they made the NCAAs, and there are a handful. They tend to fall into three categories: (1) BCS school with big $$$ in the game (Texas/Rick Barnes); (2) Historical powerhouse (UCLA/Ben Howland); (3) Extenuating circumstance/coach may be dead from neck up (Howland, SJU/Lavin). Gary in a non-NCAA year, though just removed from two straight NCAAs, was clearly in column 3. (Also note: none of those fired coaches were exactly hanging around the Final Four...they all barely got in the tournament). If you added a couple of key details to the Gary vs. JTIII comparison: that JTIII had 4-7 points better regular season and conference winning %s over the span, and Gary missed the NCAAs 4 of his final 8 years (we've missed twice in the last 8), I think most Georgetown fans would say JTIII's tenure is at least modestly better than Gary's during that time, and we've never sunk close to as low as Gary did the year he got fired. But it's an interesting comparison, and to it I'll offer this: I do as a fan of this particular program put a value on coaching stability and the connection to the history of the program that probably outweighs the W/Ls and postseason finishes in a given year/stretch. I wouldn't be as into swapping around coaches like UCLA (or Indiana, etc) of late, chasing the big score. Plenty of programs/pro franchises like that. That being said...ummmm, we're doing fine as a program over the last decade. (EDIT: It's also relevant to this discussion to note that it took Mark Turgeon until his fourth season to get Maryland back to the NCAA Tournament, and he's a darn good coach/recruiter. Maryland really did fall that far that quick.)
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