hoyainspirit
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
When life puts that voodoo on me, music is my gris-gris.
Posts: 8,392
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Post by hoyainspirit on Apr 2, 2015 15:54:14 GMT -5
The insane amounts of money generated by college basketball (and at other schools, college football) has to flow somewhere. You can't pay the players, so who are you going to pay? A chunk of it goes to fan message board administrators and moderators. This whole system is just so unfair! They pull those bucks off the backs of us, the posters. Without us, what do they have? Nothing! Yet we toil, posting day and night, many of us thousands of times, for free. And pls don't run afoul of the rules, which are difficult to understand and not uniformly enforced. I think we should unionized and address this situation.
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aristides
Bulldog (over 250 posts)
Posts: 341
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Post by aristides on Apr 2, 2015 15:56:39 GMT -5
As much as I would like to think otherwise, III is overpaid. I am happy we recovered from last season's absence from the NCAAs, but not having a single significant rising Junior or Senior is inexcusable. That just should not happen unless you are bringing in MCD AAs every year like UK, Duke, etc. It is also hard to accept Gtown will likely not be a Top 25 team over a 3 season span - 13/14, 14/15 and most likely 15/16. I am hoping he can work some coaching magic next season and get this team to play well together, but at this point there is no reason to assume they will be better than this past season. III did take steps in overhauling his staff a fea years back, but another borderline relevant season will not help. Boy, that 2016/2017 season could be the most important one in III's tenure. Is he going to be considered a top coach, or not? That season will likely determine the story, coming an exact 10 years after the Final Four run. Wait...am I missing something? Didn't we finish the season ranked in the top 25 this year? I'm more discouraged about the voters writing Georgetown off for the 15/16 season. :-( Hey the team is young and has a thin bench but that's a lot of talent on the floor.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Apr 2, 2015 16:10:11 GMT -5
It's bad enough when he's getting killed for losing in the NCAA, now people are erasing his regular season accomplishments from history. I can't wait for people to say...damn it, when will he ever earn a top 4 seed!?!?!? or win the regular season big east title?!?!?! You guys are kidding right. I am one of the biggest III supporters on this board. But the man is overpaid right now. Like Elvado stated with his baseball analogy, he is being paid for past accomplishments. If you believe we deserved a #4 seed, ok, we can agree to disagree. But then you also have to believe losing to #5 Utah was just another legitimate tourney disappointment for the 6th year in a row. And if you think the team this year was a legit Top 25 team, ok, again we can just disagree. 3 weeks of showing up in the poll over the course of an entire season does not make me view the Hoyas as a Top 25 team. If you think he has performed as the #9 best coach in college basketball over the last 5 seasons or so, OK. But the man has not made a Sweet 16 in 8 seasons and has not exactly been a great recruiter (empty Jr/Sr classes). He is good coach, but #9 implies he is a great coach and I am simply not willing to go there. NCHoya, I understand your frustration, but I think your arguments regarding the top 25 are partially borne out of the tendency of all of us to be harder on our team because we are fans. By nearly any metric - the rankings, KenPom.com, NCAA seeding - we were a top 25 team at the end of the season. We certainly were not dominant or anything like that but I think it would be harder to argue that there are many teams that should have pushed us down the rankings. The fact that we lost to Utah should also not come as a surprise or mean we aren't top 25 - at least 9 of the top 25 have to lose before the Sweet 16. Thus, I am not sure what "legit top 25" team means. It's sort of a pointless label anyway. There's a huge difference and dropoff in talent between the Top 10, for example, and the teams ranked 20-25, yet both are top 25. Is one "legit" top 25, and the other not? The other issue is that I think the lack of NCAA success has clouded a lot of people's minds with regard to how good we actually have been outside of the NCAA tournament. The 2008 team was great, the 2010 team was really good, the 2013 team was very good, and this year's team was pretty good. Out of the 9 NCAA bids JTIII has received, 6 are a top 4 seed. That clearly shows we've had a ton of success in the regular seasons. I just think it's lost after our losses in March.
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NCHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,924
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Post by NCHoya on Apr 2, 2015 16:15:11 GMT -5
So you're not using the objective standard of finishing the season in the top 25 in both of the major polls or the actual seeding awarded by the committee, but how it really should have gone down if all was fair in the universe? [/quote] I am glad I could liven up the debate here. Let's put aside my ridiculous argument that we did not deserve a #4 seed (because I must be in the minority on that one), and OK, I guess we will be in the final top 25 poll next week, perhaps #23 or whatever. I honestly, have not paid a lot of attention this season to our ranking. So I officially retract that statement - I see it was false and misinformed. Now, let's just get to the point . . . Do you feel like in the last 5 seasons (or 6 or 4, but I do not feel 9 or 10 is reasonable) JT3 has deserved to be a top 10 highest paid college coach? If your answer is yes, so be it, many people on this board agree with you. However, if you cannot accept that there is the possibility he is not a top 10 coach, I am not sure there is a point to this discussion. Have we been a Top 10 team? Have we recruited consistent top 10 classes? Have we consistently performed to our seed in the NCAAs? Do top 10 coaches literally have two full recruiting classes with nothing? I love JT3, I defend him from ridiculous criticism, but saying he is not a top 10 coach (and is overpaid) is not the same as being part of some grand "anti-III" narrative or saying he should be on the "hot seat" or even a warm seat. We may not agree on this, but I am not leaving this discussion as some - Anti-III villain because that could not be further from the truth.
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NCHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,924
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Post by NCHoya on Apr 2, 2015 16:21:46 GMT -5
NCHoya, I understand your frustration, but I think your arguments regarding the top 25 are partially borne out of the tendency of all of us to be harder on our team because we are fans. By nearly any metric - the rankings, KenPom.com, NCAA seeding - we were a top 25 team at the end of the season. We certainly were not dominant or anything like that but I think it would be harder to argue that there are many teams that should have pushed us down the rankings. The fact that we lost to Utah should also not come as a surprise or mean we aren't top 25 - at least 9 of the top 25 have to lose before the Sweet 16. Thus, I am not sure what "legit top 25" team means. It's sort of a pointless label anyway. There's a huge difference and dropoff in talent between the Top 10, for example, and the teams ranked 20-25, yet both are top 25. Is one "legit" top 25, and the other not? The other issue is that I think the lack of NCAA success has clouded a lot of people's minds with regard to how good we actually have been outside of the NCAA tournament. The 2008 team was great, the 2010 team was really good, the 2013 team was very good, and this year's team was pretty good. Out of the 9 NCAA bids JTIII has received, 6 are a top 4 seed. That clearly shows we've had a ton of success in the regular seasons. I just think it's lost after our losses in March. Agreed, I wish I could take back the Top 25 comment, but it is published so it is out there. I guess what I mean is a nationally discussed team. Is that top 25, top 20, I have no idea, but I know this year the Hoyas were not there in my opinion. And this is all about a simple point - III is paid as a top 10 coach; my belief is we are not a top 10 program therefore III is overpaid. That does not make me anti-III at all. I love the guy, he is just overpaid right now and being paid for past accomplishments. I think it is a defendable position (although I am not doing a good job) but one not many people share on this board.
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mfk24
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,759
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Post by mfk24 on Apr 2, 2015 16:31:27 GMT -5
I'm sure things like cost of living and associated expenses have to be factored in to III's salary too. Hell, before GW hired Lonergan, their last coach was making almost $600k with nothing in the way of success to show for it. I wouldn't be surprised if Lonergan was making close to $1 million a year.
Also, as someone else mentioned, that list doesn't include highly paid coaches who haven't made the NCAA tournament.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Apr 2, 2015 16:32:50 GMT -5
A chunk of it goes to fan message board administrators and moderators. This whole system is just so unfair! They pull those bucks off the backs of us, the posters. Without us, what do they have? Nothing! Yet we toil, posting day and night, many of us thousands of times, for free. And pls don't run afoul of the rules, which are difficult to understand and not uniformly enforced. I think we should unionized and address this situation. Who will be our Norma Rae??!!
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hoyafan23
Bulldog (over 250 posts)
Posts: 290
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Post by hoyafan23 on Apr 2, 2015 16:47:43 GMT -5
If you add in Billy Donovan, Josh Pastner, John Belein I think JTIII drops to about 15. That being said I still think he is being overpaid...
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Cambridge
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Canes Pugnaces
Posts: 5,301
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Post by Cambridge on Apr 2, 2015 16:50:26 GMT -5
Do you feel like in the last 5 seasons (or 6 or 4, but I do not feel 9 or 10 is reasonable) JT3 has deserved to be a top 10 highest paid college coach? Yes.
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prhoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 23,260
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Post by prhoya on Apr 2, 2015 17:00:31 GMT -5
Do you feel like in the last 5 seasons (or 6 or 4, but I do not feel 9 or 10 is reasonable) JT3 has deserved to be a top 10 highest paid college coach? Yes. Agree to disagree.
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Post by wrestlemania on Apr 2, 2015 17:04:41 GMT -5
Going bargain hunting for head coaches at this level is risky -- the cost of failure is too high, both in lost goodwill with the fanbase plus the additional cost of starting over with someone else. Eventually, you have to pay them.
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prhoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 23,260
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Post by prhoya on Apr 2, 2015 17:07:53 GMT -5
sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/salaries/mens-basketball/coachI was a little bit surprised by this. At 2.8 million, this makes JTIII the highest paid of all non-BCS schools followed closely by Wright. I like JTIII, but frankly I would expect more results on the recruiting trail and in the post season for this sort of outlay. This accounts for most of the FOX TV deal money and you still have all of the expenses of running the program. At this pay grade, I would expect to see results as soon as the hoops practice facility is completed because there aren't really any other excuses once that is done. One other note is it is insane these guys make this much at educational institutions. It is obviously the market at work but man, it is hard to fathom. I think this settles the question of whether GU could attract a top coach. It's a great job with great pay. But, don't get me wrong, it's JT3's job until he doesn't want it anymore or has more than a couple of Esh-like years.
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NCHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,924
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Post by NCHoya on Apr 2, 2015 17:32:58 GMT -5
Do you feel like in the last 5 seasons (or 6 or 4, but I do not feel 9 or 10 is reasonable) JT3 has deserved to be a top 10 highest paid college coach? Yes. Thank you for keeping me honest on the reasoning behind my assertions in prior posts. The basic issue is we just disagree. Reasonable people can do that.
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Post by reformation on Apr 2, 2015 18:06:32 GMT -5
I would say that his pay is at the very high end of the range for what his perf level is. My issue with his pay would be that he really does not have any job pressure-that is not the same boat most of the other coaches are in.. He basically has a job for life. He should be taking a bit of a haircut for what is effectively a long term guarantee.
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by SFHoya99 on Apr 2, 2015 18:20:35 GMT -5
I mean, this all comes back to whether your think the tournament results are truly systematic. I will update my general program results after the tourney is over, but Georgetown under III ranks 9th in average Pomeroy rating and close by in any number of complete season evaluations. So 11th in salary isn't that off, if it is off at all. Of course, that's if you think that his struggles in the tourney are largely or mostly not driven by him. The list above him is largely a group of highly successful coaches (cough, Crean), but look immediately behind III and it's clear that he's nowhere near the most overpaid guy. Matt Painter? Mark Turgeon? Mike Anderson? MIKE ANDERSON? It's also worth noting that the "other compensation" is nowhere near accurate, and I find it hard to believe Roy Williams doesn't have a bunch of camps and speaking engagements purchased by boosters that catapults him up the lists. Why the Mike Anderson hate? He won a national title at Arkansas as an assistant, so there is a lot of love within the state and at the program for him, not unlike our affinity for the Thompson name. He turned UAB into a relevant program (3 straight NCAA tournaments, sweet 16) after they were a disaster; he got Missouri to the Elite 8 and after Quinn Snyder tried to destroy the program, and then left the team loaded with talent; and he just got Arkansas an NCAA win after a 10 year drought and has multiple top 100 recruits coming in next year. Seems to me like a guy who has a pretty good track record of winning at places that others have struggled. He can recruit, but he doesn't come anywhere near getting the best out of his players. Watch his teams -- undisciplined play, constant breakdowns, wildly talented people misused and underused. I suppose I could have capitalized Matt Painter's name as well. Or several others. People say Calipari is a roll-it-out-there coach. He's not. He's really a very good coach. Anderson is a roll-it-out-there coach. Poor fundamentals, poor discipline, constantly underperforming talent.
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daveg023
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,333
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Post by daveg023 on Apr 2, 2015 18:37:55 GMT -5
I agree with you SF. Here's how I'd breakdown JTIII:
Pros Above average recruiter Good ambassador for the school Excellent scheduler (recent years especially) Players seem to like him
Cons Not a good in game coach Rarely gets "more" out of the players he has Ability to motivate is debatable Not the best at balancing his roster
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DanMcQ
Moderator
Posts: 30,493
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Post by DanMcQ on Apr 2, 2015 19:18:16 GMT -5
The insane amounts of money generated by college basketball (and at other schools, college football) has to flow somewhere. You can't pay the players, so who are you going to pay? A chunk of it goes to fan message board administrators and moderators. Link?
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Apr 2, 2015 19:25:38 GMT -5
A chunk of it goes to fan message board administrators and moderators. Link? I am not privy to the Swiss bank account numbers that you guys use.
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mfk24
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,759
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Post by mfk24 on Apr 2, 2015 19:31:43 GMT -5
I agree with you SF. Here's how I'd breakdown JTIII: Pros Above average recruiter Good ambassador for the school Excellent scheduler (recent years especially) Players seem to like him Cons Not a good in game coach Rarely gets "more" out of the players he has Ability to motivate is debatable Not the best at balancing his roster I think we as fans make more out of roster balance than most teams do. Look at the rosters of teams in the Elite 8. Kentucky is in a class by itself so it would be silly to include them. Michigan St - 8 deep, guard and wing heavy, aside from Shilling and Costello, no one else on that roster taller than 6'6. Loiusville - maybe 7 deep, 1 serviceable big and 1 guard off the bench that see at least 10 mins a game Duke - 7 deep, absolutely NO guard depth at all Gonzaga - 7 deep, 1 big, 1 guard off the bench Arizona - probably the most balanced of the teams aside from UK obviously, with 9 guys getting 8 or more mins Wisconsin - 7, maybe 8 deep, but would be in a heck of a lot of trouble were Kaminsky to ever get in foul trouble (ie get called for any of those chicken wing hooking offensive fouls) ND - 6 deep, no back-up guards, they're all in the starting lineup
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DanMcQ
Moderator
Posts: 30,493
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Post by DanMcQ on Apr 2, 2015 19:34:06 GMT -5
Link? I am not privy to the Swiss bank account numbers that you guys use.
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