nathanhm
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Post by nathanhm on Apr 3, 2015 7:07:34 GMT -5
I'm really surprised at this conversation. I think JT3 is worth every penny.
First and most importantly he runs a clean program with kids that usually graduate, represent the university well, and don't make headlines for the wrong reasons.
Second, his teams are talented enough that we all feel like we are owed more March success than we've had. Would I like more post season wins, yes, but JT3 had done a great job of getting us to the cusp. If his teams rip off a 3 or 4 game win streak in the Tourney the narrative disappears like it did for Bill Self.
Third, he's kept the program relevant which helps donations to the university, increases applications from perspective students, and increases the value of the Georgetown brand.
Fourth he continues the great relationships the school has had with our NBA alumni. Ewing Jr., went to Indiana over Georgetown because Eshrick wasn't able to maintain that connection.
JT3 isn't a perfect coach by any means and I'd love to see him break free of his March struggles, but I don't think we'll find a better fit for our school anywhere else. To argue his merits on strictly wins and losses is beneath us and the type of attitude that fan bases with coaches like Cal, Huggins, Boeheim, Calhoun practice.
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This Just In
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Post by This Just In on Apr 3, 2015 7:32:38 GMT -5
NCHoya, I understand your frustration, but I think your arguments regarding the top 25 are partially borne out of the tendency of all of us to be harder on our team because we are fans. By nearly any metric - the rankings, KenPom.com, NCAA seeding - we were a top 25 team at the end of the season. We certainly were not dominant or anything like that but I think it would be harder to argue that there are many teams that should have pushed us down the rankings. The fact that we lost to Utah should also not come as a surprise or mean we aren't top 25 - at least 9 of the top 25 have to lose before the Sweet 16. Thus, I am not sure what "legit top 25" team means. It's sort of a pointless label anyway. There's a huge difference and dropoff in talent between the Top 10, for example, and the teams ranked 20-25, yet both are top 25. Is one "legit" top 25, and the other not? The other issue is that I think the lack of NCAA success has clouded a lot of people's minds with regard to how good we actually have been outside of the NCAA tournament. The 2008 team was great, the 2010 team was really good, the 2013 team was very good, and this year's team was pretty good. Out of the 9 NCAA bids JTIII has received, 6 are a top 4 seed. That clearly shows we've had a ton of success in the regular seasons. I just think it's lost after our losses in March. Agreed, I wish I could take back the Top 25 comment, but it is published so it is out there. I guess what I mean is a nationally discussed team. Is that top 25, top 20, I have no idea, but I know this year the Hoyas were not there in my opinion. And this is all about a simple point - III is paid as a top 10 coach; my belief is we are not a top 10 program therefore III is overpaid. That does not make me anti-III at all. I love the guy, he is just overpaid right now and being paid for past accomplishments. I think it is a defendable position (although I am not doing a good job) but one not many people share on this board. Do you believe that there any top tier programs that would pick up Jay Wright or JTIII?
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Post by aleutianhoya on Apr 3, 2015 7:35:34 GMT -5
Agreed, I wish I could take back the Top 25 comment, but it is published so it is out there. I guess what I mean is a nationally discussed team. Is that top 25, top 20, I have no idea, but I know this year the Hoyas were not there in my opinion. And this is all about a simple point - III is paid as a top 10 coach; my belief is we are not a top 10 program therefore III is overpaid. That does not make me anti-III at all. I love the guy, he is just overpaid right now and being paid for past accomplishments. I think it is a defendable position (although I am not doing a good job) but one not many people share on this board. Do you believe that there any top tier programs that would pick up Jay Wright or JTIII? What does "top tier" mean? Texas and Alabama both discussed their job openings with Wright, according to reports, so if you mean "Big 5 Conference teams" then absolutely, yes. (Teams aren't talking to JTIII because they know he's not going anywhere.)
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Post by aleutianhoya on Apr 3, 2015 7:54:44 GMT -5
This is silly, even for this board.
First of all, we're throwing around terms like "paid like a top 10 coach" that are demonstrably wrong. He was 11th among 2015 NCAA qualifiers, and we know with near certainty that there are coaches of teams that didn't qualify this year that are paid a higher salary. My guess is there are a handful more than we even realize. The reality is that he's probably no higher than 15th and may really be closer to 20th. (Note: Georgetown doesn't have to report any of his ancillary pay, so his pay likely is higher, but I strongly assume lots of other coaches' ancillary pay is too. The numbers simply aren't that accurate. So parsing the numbers to differentiate between 10th and 15th and 20th is probably meaningless.
With that (large) caveat, if he is in fact the 15th or 20th highest paid coach, does he deserve to be paid as the 15th or 20th highest paid coach? As SF points out, under every conceivable metric except NCAA Tournament success, yes. And -- Holy Recency Bias, Batman -- even as to that metric, he's taken Georgetown to a Final Four within the last decade! He's not exactly living off of success from the short-shorts era. How many of the coaches paid a lower salary have more Final Four appearances per year coaching?
Gregg Marshall has had some terrific years at Wichita State, right? He's getting paid over $3 million per year starting next year. This is not to demean Marshall at all (who I think HAS done a terrific job), but dig a little bit. What he's done in the regular season, overall, has been worse than what III has done in the regular season. In his first four years, he didn't make the NCAAs (though his teams improved every year, and he won the NIT in his fourth year). In the most recent four years, he's earned a 5, 9, 1, and 7 seed. Sure four for his last four vs. 3 for his last 4 for JTIII and one undefeated regular season, but III has had more average success in those three years overall (and a lot longer record of success before that). Has Marshall been better in the NCAAs? Sure, in the limited years he's qualified, but most of it is built off of one great run to the Final Four (which was now three years ago). He's also lost to a 12 seed in the first round, and lost in the second round as a one seed. Two out of four years have been terrific disappointments.
Again, I'm not demeaning Marshall. He's been to one Sweet Sixteen and one Final Four in the past four years. Great stuff. And I get that he's doing it at a true mid-major program, so they have to pay him to keep him (which likely is not the case here). It's just that once you get outside the usual suspects, it's easy to poke holes.
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Filo
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Post by Filo on Apr 3, 2015 7:57:07 GMT -5
Wonder how / if the numbers change when paid bonuses are factored in. Some crazy bonus numbers in there (none for JTIII) but no way to tell what, if anything, was paid out.
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Apr 3, 2015 8:01:40 GMT -5
Overpaid if his only/main job responsibility is to win tourney games. Even then the same coaches don't nevessarily win every year consistently.
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NCHoya
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Post by NCHoya on Apr 3, 2015 8:20:02 GMT -5
Do you believe that there any top tier programs that would pick up Jay Wright or JTIII? Honestly, I cannot worry about Jay Wright. As for III, he probably does not get many opportunities given his deep ties to Georgetown. But no, I do not think III would be on anyone's list in the top 20. Too many other younger, coaches with a better resume - Shaka Smart being a good example (who is only going to be slightly higher paid than III at UT) ESPN did a Top 50 ranking a year ago of coaches and III was #46. That is overly harsh and wrong, but it goes to show the less biased national perception (versus this board) is III does not belong in the Top 10 or 15 or 20.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Apr 3, 2015 8:35:29 GMT -5
I'm really surprised at this conversation. I think JT3 is worth every penny. Third, he's kept the program relevant which helps donations to the university, increases applications from perspective students, and increases the value of the Georgetown brand. Fourth he continues the great relationships the school has had with our NBA alumni. Ewing Jr., went to Indiana over Georgetown because Eshrick wasn't able to maintain that connection. You can't stress these ones enough. Whether by his pedigree or by his personality, JTIII has kept the NBA alums close and our school has been rewarded with some very big donations from them for the practice facility. Not sure if that would have happened or will happen in the future if we broke with the Thompsons.
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Post by upstatesaxa on Apr 3, 2015 8:53:57 GMT -5
One interesting metric might be salary as % of athletic department budget. As non football schools, its to be expected that these salaries dominate the department budgets. How dominant would be interesting
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Post by vamosalaplaya on Apr 3, 2015 9:23:03 GMT -5
Kevin Ollie and Billy Donovan make more than JT III and are not on this list. I suspect there are quite a few others from wanna-be football schools that pay their basketball coaches alot of money. He is paid like a top 25 coach and I suspect his outside income is well below what you can make coaching a state program is the headline here.
The lack of NCAA success relative to regular season performance - which has been outstanding by any measure - is like a shoe that gets pounded on top of posters heads in these discussions. It's the gift that keeps on giving and won't ever stop. JT III's compensation is very fair overall and it's what the university needs to do to field a consistent Top 25 program. And he has earned it.
The best thing about this list is that should JT III ever leave it appears the University has the resources to attract a top coach.
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Post by cosmopolitanhoya on Apr 3, 2015 9:35:39 GMT -5
JT3 is gettin overpaid - he got raise after his final four that amounts to be this, and got further extension after we lost to FGFU.
Add the job security to his already top 10 amounted salary, which other coaches at other big time basketball schools do not have - other than maybe coach K - he definitely got a good deal - possibly the best 5 contracts in the country. Except he definitely has not lived up to his salary after 2007.
I think the pundits who defend JT3 believe that march tournament game is deemed just like another game in a regular season - random losses here and there, but whatever, it does not matter because we got this many wins in the regular season and thus, we got a high seed. That alone is a successful season yay!
The people who think he is getting overpaid value each tournament game greater than those games in the regular season. If game against Depaul during the regular season was a quiz that is worth of 3% of your final grade, then the game against FGFU is a final exam that is worth of 50% of your grade.
Aside from keeping allegedly clean program (which cannot be fully confirmed, but believed so, since there has been no NCAA violation) and not being a trouble-maker off-court, JT3's accomplishment in terms of basketball has not been very strong to deserve top 5 best contract in the country. but i guess we will agree to disagree here.
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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Apr 3, 2015 9:36:36 GMT -5
Good point Vamos but those guys have titles, JTIII doesn't. I hope that the assistant pay is up there as much as the coaches because it is evident that Broadus & Hardy are getting it done. It is fine if they go for a HC job, but you don't want them jumping ship to a higher paid assistant gig. I think this is less likely with Broadus because of his ample baggage but Hardy is probably just a matter of time.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Apr 3, 2015 9:40:37 GMT -5
For the record, I am in the pro, but frustrated, JTIII camp. Not sure where NCHoya was coming from on that one. Up until last year, I think we had sneaked into the AP top 10 every year for a long stint due to early season success. My point is for 2.8 million, you should be in the tourney just about every year (CHECK), you should be competing for conference titles most years (CHECK), you should consistently pull in top recruits (MEH, not consistent) and you should make the second weekend of the tourney half the time you are there (NO BUENO). I think JTIII is on a path of fixing recruiting and hopefully that will fix the tourney. Emphasis added, because recruiting has the greatest number of extraneous variables that the coach either doesn't control (facilities) or are inimical to Georgetown's way of doing things (paying players under the table, committing widespread academic fraud, becoming a one-and-done factory). The staff recruited kids like Kevon Looney, Kelly Oubre, Myles Turner, Rashad Vaughn, D. Russell from this freshman class.. They recruited Alonzo Trier, D. Bacon, D. Stone & Rabb this HS season.. G'town isn't a one & done factory but it's not due to a lack of trying..
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Apr 3, 2015 9:42:34 GMT -5
Good point Vamos but those guys have titles, JTIII doesn't. I hope that the assistant pay is up there as much as the coaches because it is evident that Broadus & Hardy are getting it done. It is fine if they go for a HC job, but you don't want them jumping ship to a higher paid assistant gig. I think this is less likely with Broadus because of his ample baggage but Hardy is probably just a matter of time. The point Vamos is making is that there are at least 2, and likely more, coaches paid more than JT3 that are not included on that list because they did not make the tournament. If you take all the coaches in D-1 basketball (rather than just the coaches who made the tournament) JT3 is probably ranked 15th-20th. He's not getting paid a top 10 salary.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Apr 3, 2015 9:45:51 GMT -5
Aside from keeping allegedly clean program (which cannot be fully confirmed, but believed so, since there has been no NCAA violation) and not being a trouble-maker off-court, JT3's accomplishment in terms of basketball has not been very strong to deserve top 5 best contract in the country. but i guess we will agree to disagree here. So..now he's top 5 in compensation based on what? Some subjective standard? This thread started with a list that ranks JTII as being the 11th highest paid coach -- a list mind you that has been criticized as inexact (doesn't seem to include all side compensation) and incomplete (does not include salaries of coaches who missed tourney), but then he suddenly became top 10, and now it's top 5. I mean, yes, it's very easy to criticize JTIII when the goal posts constantly shift and the standards used to evaluate him are no longer tethered to reality.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Apr 3, 2015 10:12:29 GMT -5
JT3 is gettin overpaid - he got raise after his final four that amounts to be this, and got further extension after we lost to FGFU. Add the job security to his already top 10 amounted salary, which other coaches at other big time basketball schools do not have - other than maybe coach K - he definitely got a good deal - possibly the best 5 contracts in the country. Except he definitely has not lived up to his salary after 2007. I think the pundits who defend JT3 believe that march tournament game is deemed just like another game in a regular season - random losses here and there, but whatever, it does not matter because we got this many wins in the regular season and thus, we got a high seed. That alone is a successful season yay! The people who think he is getting overpaid value each tournament game greater than those games in the regular season. If game against Depaul during the regular season was a quiz that is worth of 3% of your final grade, then the game against FGFU is a final exam that is worth of 50% of your grade. Aside from keeping allegedly clean program (which cannot be fully confirmed, but believed so, since there has been no NCAA violation) and not being a trouble-maker off-court, JT3's accomplishment in terms of basketball has not been very strong to deserve top 5 best contract in the country. but i guess we will agree to disagree here. If you're going to say that he runs an "allegedly" clean program, then it's clear you're biased against him.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Apr 3, 2015 10:13:54 GMT -5
Yes, if I one will always accept a lower per yr guaranteed revenue stream than a non guaranteed one-and yes professors probably have a very different pay scale than they otherwise would because they effectively can't be fired. --that's how compensation agreements + most long term contracts work in a free mkt. Just look at NFL guaranteed/non guaranteed money in a sports context. Yes, your analogy is also off base a professors/govt employees effectively due take less money compared to similar cop orate jobs at least partly because of security. Reformation, careful. You wrote "due" when you meant "do". Instead of discussing a difference of opinion and engaging in the necessary dialogue the Hoyatalk patrol (KCHoya) will call you out if, in haste, you misspell or use an inappropriate word. Then you are questioned "snarkily" (this must be the word of the post season) whether you went to Georgetown . There is no way you can 'compete' with someone who averages a post a day for 15 years. If a person is going to criticize the performance of someone else and say they are paid too much, I think they might want to learn how to spell overpaid.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Apr 3, 2015 10:16:05 GMT -5
Overpaid? Yes, but that's what the market will bear. That's on Georgetown for signing the deal, not the coach. The salary has increased over $1M in the last four years.
The greater danger is in perceptions within the Georgetown community. John Thompson wisely backloaded his salary because, in part, it helped assuage concerns within academic circles that he was overpaid and Georgetown's priorities were not in order. JT could have easily demanded $1M a year in the 1990's, but there was already some key medical researcher or law school dean with higher numbers so that $400K for a coach wasn't grounds for a significant outcry. Ten plus years ago, then-professor Chet Gillis raised public concerns about JT's deferred compensation package that made it to the Washington Post. Now, as College Dean, he hears it from faculty that are no longer seeing a $400K a year package being a drain on faculty resources, but someone making seven times that that doesn't even teach. Yes, we all know that salaries aren't fungible and that JT'IIIs salary wouldn't pay for 25 new professors or 100 kids on financial aid a year...but that's the false perception.
Jack DeGioia caught plenty of grief when his salary passed $1 million a few years ago--never mind that he is the CEO of a $900 million corporation with more employees in DC than anyone other that the government and a board of directors expecting him to raise almost $1 million every 24 hours to meet the expectations for the campaign, so that's not out of range for the pressure on that kind of job. But DeGioia still heard it from faculty wondering why their salaries weren't growing and positions cut while he was clearing seven figures.
The average head coach at Georgetown makes somewhere around $100K a year and while basketball is not average, it's not the "Department of Basketball" but the "Department of Athletics" and the department has to be proactive to internal voices as well as the alumni, not not only for the "that's too much" argument, but the "that's too much based on performance" argument, which some above have claimed. Pete Wilk can have 16 consecutive losing seasons as a head coach at Georgetown, but he's not making a fortune, either. The expectations game doesn't allow a basketball coach to do that, and certainly not at that pay grade. But if this became an internal issue in the academic community, and there was pressure to limit that salary in the future, the competitive consequences would be apparent for some time to come.
Clearly, coach Thompson works 24/7 to improve things, and while there are areas for improvement, he's not taking his money on vacation (as was the case with former SMU football coach June Jones, paid $2 million a year but spent large chunks of his off-season time in Hawaii). Unfortunately, money clouds the conversation. Is Shaka Smart a "better" coach whether he's making $450K at VCU or $3M at Texas? Of course not... but with sky-high salaries comes sky-higher expectations, and that what JT III is fighting through right now.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Apr 3, 2015 10:16:15 GMT -5
Yes, if I one will always accept a lower per yr guaranteed revenue stream than a non guaranteed one-and yes professors probably have a very different pay scale than they otherwise would because they effectively can't be fired. --that's how compensation agreements + most long term contracts work in a free mkt. Just look at NFL guaranteed/non guaranteed money in a sports context. Yes, your analogy is also off base a professors/govt employees effectively due take less money compared to similar cop orate jobs at least partly because of security. That's not the argument that was being advanced, which was that JT3 should take a discount because of this alleged job security. To make your analysis applicable, you would have to take two equally situated professors and see if the granting of tenure would lower their compensation level. I don't think that happens in the real world.
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Big Dog
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Post by Big Dog on Apr 3, 2015 10:31:50 GMT -5
Here's ESPN's top 50 list from last year, which already looks silly with Donovan at no. 1. And where do we think Greg McDermott ranks now? Editeding idiots: espn.go.com/ncb/notebook/_/page/top50coaches1/no-1-florida-billy-donovanNo. 50: Tie -- Randy Bennett, Saint Mary's; Scott Drew, Baylor No. 49: Richard Pitino, Minnesota No. 48: Stew Morrill, Utah State No. 47: Bob Hoffman, Mercer No. 46: John Thompson III, Georgetown No. 45: Mike Brey, Notre Dame No. 44: Rick Barnes, Texas No. 43: Chris Mack, Xavier No. 42: Josh Pastner, Memphis No. 41: Ed Cooley, Providence No. 40: Bruce Weber, Kansas State No. 39: Tubby Smith, Texas Tech No. 38: Buzz Williams, Virginia Tech No. 37: Rick Byrd, Belmont No. 36: Steve Alford, UCLA No. 35: Phil Martelli, Saint Joseph's No. 34: Tad Boyle, Colorado No. 33: Fran McCaffery, Iowa No. 32: Tim Miles, Nebraska No. 31: Lon Kruger, Oklahoma No. 30: Bob Huggins, West Virginia No. 29: Jim Crews, Saint Louis No. 28: Jim Larranaga, Miami No. 27: Mick Cronin, Cincinnati No. 26: Archie Miller, Dayton No. 25: Jamie Dixon, Pittsburgh No. 24: Bob McKillop, Davidson No. 23: Greg McDermott, Creighton No. 22: Tommy Amaker, Harvard No. 21: Larry Brown, SMU No. 20: Thad Matta, Ohio State No. 19: Jay Wright, Villanova No. 18: Steve Fisher, San Diego State No. 17: Mark Few, Gonzaga No. 16: Roy Williams, North Carolina No. 15: Fred Hoiberg, Iowa State No. 14: Tony Bennett, Virginia No. 13: Shaka Smart, VCU No. 12: Jim Boeheim, Syracuse No. 11: Sean Miller, Arizona No. 10: Kevin Ollie, UConn No. 9: John Beilein, Michigan No. 8: Gregg Marshall, Wichita State No. 7: Bo Ryan, Wisconsin No. 6: Bill Self, Kansas No. 5: Rick Pitino, Louisville No. 4: Mike Krzyzewski, Duke No. 3: Tom Izzo, Michigan State No. 2: John Calipari, Kentucky No. 1: Billy Donovan, Florida
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