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Post by aleutianhoya on Mar 22, 2015 17:16:18 GMT -5
Villanova screwed all of us by humiliating the league for the second-straight year--it will take years now for the conference to get out of this respect whole. But help is coming. The Hoyas will be very interesting next year. Marquette has an absolutely loaded recruiting class coming in--as much as I hate to admit it they need to be taking it to people. In the meantime, we are all Xavier Musketeers now. It's interesting. The league had a decent first round, right? St. John's lost a toss-up game (that was probably less than a toss-up given Obekpa) and Provy got the proverbial screw-job, but you had to assume someone was going to get upset, particularly when we had three teams that are six seeds. And then, going into the tourney, we would have expected (by seed) only two sweet sixteen teams anyway. Us and Nova. And our game was going to be (and was) a tossup. Obviously things didn't turn out according to seed (not that they ever do), but the point is that the reasonable expectations going into the Tournament was that we get two teams in the second weekend -- three if the ball bounces the right way. We didn't hit that expectation obviously, but we weren't horrifically far from it; it was only a disaster in the sense that we had the chance to make a splash as a league and didn't. I think the challenge for the league going forward is to have more than one team in a position to play two games in which they're the clear favorite. I think this season (which was great) showed that it's very hard for this league to do that. I'm not going to look, but outside of us and Nova, who else in the league has been a 1-3 seed (the seeds that you'd expect to be favorites in both games this first weekend) in the past decade? (Creighton was last year, but that was a clear exception...)
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Post by michaeldm9 on Mar 22, 2015 17:19:48 GMT -5
For this team to flourish, there has to be better player development. Not recruiting one and done players, so go to make the ones that come in better.
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hoya95
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,445
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Post by hoya95 on Mar 22, 2015 18:18:21 GMT -5
A friend of mine from Iowa just told me that before Friday, Iowa had not won a game in the tournament since 2001. I don't think of them as a huge powerhouse, but definitely a legitimate program and that did shock me. It doesn't stop the frustration, but it's another reminder that things can definitely be worse.
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lichoya68
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
OK YOUNGINS ARE HERE AND ARE VERY VERY GOOD cant wait GO HOYAS
Posts: 17,438
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Post by lichoya68 on Mar 22, 2015 18:40:17 GMT -5
Ok here it is Bradley will practice HENRY TOUGH adn be muchmore meanier DSR well hell be DSR and you know the TWO LEADING SCORERS FOR US WERE FRESHMEN yup LJ and COPELAND sooooooooo and a big center coming in and two others. YOU KNOW I THINK WE WILL BE VERY VERY VERY good come to keeer and watch us grow IF bradley works hard and becomes mean like OH HENRY then the sky is the limit Littel Tre. Paul HMMMMMMM we will see not a bad group WRIGHT go hoyas THE MORE I PRACTICE THE LUCKIER I GET john wooden .
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lichoya68
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
OK YOUNGINS ARE HERE AND ARE VERY VERY GOOD cant wait GO HOYAS
Posts: 17,438
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Post by lichoya68 on Mar 22, 2015 18:40:44 GMT -5
PS we will WIN the big east regular season TAKE THAT TO THE BANK go hoyas
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Post by HoyasAreHungry on Mar 22, 2015 19:04:14 GMT -5
Think also of Bill Self at Kansas with all the talent they get.
Bottom line the tourney is a single elimination tourney. Put your self in a position to be in it and once and a while (hopefully more often than not) you can make a run.
Just shows how tough it is. Perspective.
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drquigley
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,377
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Post by drquigley on Mar 22, 2015 19:36:01 GMT -5
I say keep it simple. As long as we feel we can win every game we play then I am happy. Don't have to actually win them but know going in that we have the players and the coach to challenge anyone. As an alum and fan that's enough for me.
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skyhoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,496
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Post by skyhoya on Mar 22, 2015 20:09:51 GMT -5
this season was just about all the other seasons, we didn't go deep into the dance.
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Post by HoyasAreHungry on Mar 22, 2015 20:17:31 GMT -5
@jeffborzello: Gonzaga will head to its first Sweet 16 since 2009. Had been bounced in the Round of 32 the past five seasons.
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Post by HoyaLawya on Mar 22, 2015 20:59:04 GMT -5
The "drought" after the NCAA's first weekend of play for teams with initials G.U. has been hard on this Zag undergrad and Hoya "lawya" ... just has made me refuse to count on anything except one game at a time. March is just dangerous, unpredictable. Seedings are meaningless. Teams get mauled by Davidson (take yer pick of being surprised in 2008 1st round or 2nd round by Stephen Curry) ...shocked by Shockers ... stunned by Florida Gulf what? It's enough to make a fan wonder if the hoops gods really are out to gitcha. Zags finally breaking free of the curse this year. Hope (springs eternal) that Hoyas are overdue for next year. espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/tournament/history/_/team1/6058 espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/tournament/history/_/team1/6088
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Post by hoya2023 on Mar 22, 2015 21:26:49 GMT -5
Villanova screwed all of us by humiliating the league for the second-straight year--it will take years now for the conference to get out of this respect whole. But help is coming. The Hoyas will be very interesting next year. Marquette has an absolutely loaded recruiting class coming in--as much as I hate to admit it they need to be taking it to people. In the meantime, we are all Xavier Musketeers now. One of Marquettes star recruits broke his hand last night in a state semifinal playoff game.
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CTHoya08
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Bring back Izzo!
Posts: 2,853
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Post by CTHoya08 on Mar 22, 2015 21:56:14 GMT -5
Villanova screwed all of us by humiliating the league for the second-straight year--it will take years now for the conference to get out of this respect whole. But help is coming. The Hoyas will be very interesting next year. Marquette has an absolutely loaded recruiting class coming in--as much as I hate to admit it they need to be taking it to people. In the meantime, we are all Xavier Musketeers now. It's interesting. The league had a decent first round, right? St. John's lost a toss-up game (that was probably less than a toss-up given Obekpa) and Provy got the proverbial screw-job, but you had to assume someone was going to get upset, particularly when we had three teams that are six seeds. And then, going into the tourney, we would have expected (by seed) only two sweet sixteen teams anyway. Us and Nova. And our game was going to be (and was) a tossup. Obviously things didn't turn out according to seed (not that they ever do), but the point is that the reasonable expectations going into the Tournament was that we get two teams in the second weekend -- three if the ball bounces the right way. We didn't hit that expectation obviously, but we weren't horrifically far from it; it was only a disaster in the sense that we had the chance to make a splash as a league and didn't. I think the challenge for the league going forward is to have more than one team in a position to play two games in which they're the clear favorite. I think this season (which was great) showed that it's very hard for this league to do that. I'm not going to look, but outside of us and Nova, who else in the league has been a 1-3 seed (the seeds that you'd expect to be favorites in both games this first weekend) in the past decade? (Creighton was last year, but that was a clear exception...) Yes, but by seed, Villanova wasn't supposed to reach the Sweet Sixteen. They were supposed to reach the Final Four. Obviously, the seeds don't always hold up. Having one team rather than two make the Sweet Sixteen isn't all that bad. But the chances of a team from the league making a deeper run took a big hit when Villanova lost last night.
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 17,736
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Post by SFHoya99 on Mar 22, 2015 22:06:46 GMT -5
Actually, historical wins per seed, as of 2007:
1 - 3.36 2 - 2.43 3 - 1.79 4 - 1.52 5 - 1.17 6 - 1.26 7 - 0.87 8 - 0.67 9 - 0.59 10 - 0.63 11 - 0.50 12 - 0.48 13 - 0.24 14 - 0.18 15 - 0.04 16 - 0.00
The average 1 seed makes the Elite Eight, but most of them don't make the Final Four. Expectations for the Big East was a little over 9 wins. We've only gotten five, so the conference isn't going to hit it, either way.
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CTHoya08
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Bring back Izzo!
Posts: 2,853
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Post by CTHoya08 on Mar 22, 2015 22:13:07 GMT -5
Oh, I know that the realistic number of wins isn't quite what they're "supposed" to be based on the seed. All I'm saying is that, while 1 for 6 into the Sweet Sixteen might not look terrible now, it might by the end of next weekend's games, unless Xavier surprises us.
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Loyal Hoya
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
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Post by Loyal Hoya on Mar 22, 2015 23:09:35 GMT -5
I see. Well I guess originally my intention was more of the latter. What is the bare minimum expected for the program? What level of acheivement must the coaching staff be judged on? That being said, I was also gauging the perceived upside as well, to see others' thoughts on what the ceiling of the program looks like. Not that this is what we expect every year, and failure to do so means the coach has done a bad job, but more what is our best case scenario in the current era. Cool. Thanks. My bare minimum would never just be one thing, but this is a good approximation: * No Scandals. I think this encompasses the first few points by Hoyaloya. Bring value to Georgetown, be classy, graduate and educate the players, etc. (CHECK) * Get to the tourney roughly 70% of the time over large spans of time. Don't miss the tourney three years in a row. (CHECK) * Be a Top 25 program/Top 3 (New) BE Program over large spans of time. Don't have three bad years in a row. (CHECK) * Demonstrate the ability to change and learn based on changes in the game, personnel or just getting better. (CHECK) * Once every roughly 4 years, have a team that could be considered Top 10. (CHECK) I would not have tournament success on my bare minimum. There's just too many factors to be useful in evaluation. I just really believe it is something that's been a combination of factors (some internal, some external) that has been exacerbated by small sample sizes. We seem to be saying very similar things. My list of "expectations" was in order of priority; so I was trying to account for the fact that the NCAA is a bit if a crap shoot while also acknowledging that it is the metric that, for better or worse, will have a disproportionate effect on our reputation and ability to recruit, etc. Still, I am happy to accept your amendment that we should have a team that, every 4 years or so, could reasonably be argued to be top ten (whether or not we get to the Sweet 16 or Elite 8).
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boxout05
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
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Post by boxout05 on Mar 22, 2015 23:18:30 GMT -5
As a program, the expectation should be to compete for the Big East title and make the NCAA tournament every year, minimum. If we don't make the tourney, something went very wrong, a black mark on those responsible. (Wasn't it Esh who said we needed to temper expectations, as if we should only hold it against him if he made the tourney less 50% of the time? Screw that.) Given that expectation, you'd hope to see a mix of early exits and long runs over a 5-6 year sample, which makes the 8 years of postseason futility so frustrating. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect better and lay blame at the feet of the coach. He's not on the hot seat though. Thinking about what kind of regular and/or postseason failure would force him out is incredibly unpleasant. I assume missing more tourneys than we make would be unacceptable. If we're consistently a 6-10 seed and don't survive the first weekend, or worse, keep falling to double digits? Ugh. That's some kind of Groundhog Day / Sisiphaen hell.
God willing, JTIII runs a clean program that's usually in the Top 25, makes a bunch of Sweet 16s, and hangs at least one more Final Four banner before he retires.
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DanMcQ
Moderator
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Post by DanMcQ on Mar 22, 2015 23:19:46 GMT -5
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kchoya
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Enter your message here...
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Post by kchoya on Mar 23, 2015 0:46:00 GMT -5
So I hate to be negative, but if we all agree that these are the expectations, isn't it safe to say we have not met these targets for the last 8 years? Isn't it fair that our coach should take some blame for this? Even if he should take some blame, to what effect? Either he stays or he's fired. Those are the only two options. You must want him fired. Who will you hire that will be a better coach?
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blueandgray
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by blueandgray on Mar 23, 2015 1:05:31 GMT -5
Win 2/3rd of our games, run a clean program, make the tourney most every year.
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daveg023
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,333
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Post by daveg023 on Mar 23, 2015 7:31:25 GMT -5
So I hate to be negative, but if we all agree that these are the expectations, isn't it safe to say we have not met these targets for the last 8 years? Isn't it fair that our coach should take some blame for this? Even if he should take some blame, to what effect? Either he stays or he's fired. Those are the only two options. You must want him fired. Who will you hire that will be a better coach? For the record I don't want him to be fired. I am pleased with the program he is running and believe we are on an upward trajectory. The likelihood of someone new coming in here and doing better is very low. The grass is not always greener. I am just saying if we are rating his performance, and this is the measuring stick, its fair to say he's underperformed a little bit. Does that mean he should be fired? No. But if we go 5 more years and haven't made a Sweet 16 or haven't won the conference again, maybe the discussion becomes real. Let's hope that remains nothing more than a hypothetical...
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