daveg023
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Post by daveg023 on Mar 22, 2015 7:51:41 GMT -5
Again it's frustrating to have another tournament run end before the second weekend, but among the rational of us on here, I think we all can appreciate we lost to a better team. Just once I'd like us to beat a team we arent supposed to in the tournament (though I guess this was our first opportunity in several years to do so), but I digress.
That being said, I'm curious to get the opinions of the like-minded, rational fans about what the expectations for the program should be. Keeping in mind the state of our conference (which will take a hit after only producing one Sweet 16 team), our resources, and current state of college basketball, what should we expect year-in-and-year-out? What is our ceiling? What is our floor?
My personal opinion is that we should be able to win the Big East at least once out of every four years, and should never be worse than 4th or 5th in the standings. As far as the national landscape, at our best we should be able to have a Top 10 team once every 4-5 years as well, and field a team worth being ranked most years. We should be able to make one tourney run into the second weekend during this time period too.
That being said is competing for a national championship realistic? I don't know. Is the Final 4 our ceiling? As some have said in other threads we aren't "Elite" but perhaps the next tier or two. Unfortunately I don't think the program will ever be back on the level it was during the 80s, which is basically Duke, UNC, Kentucky, etc. territory, having made 3 title games in the decade. When you step back and look at the program's longer history, that period may be the outlier. Hopefully the future lies somewhere between the glory years of the 80s and the mediocrity of the 90's and early 00's.
Am I being too optimistic? Not giving us enough credit?
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Post by HoyasAreHungry on Mar 22, 2015 9:04:41 GMT -5
I think this is about right, however I would say we have *potential to do more. Some things need to break our way recruiting wise, etc. Let's see if the IAC provides a little boost in that regard finally.
NCAA's yearly should be an expectation as we have mostly done that in the III era.
We also have to recognize how good that is though. You have to get there to even have a shot at advancing far into the tourney. Have we had the results we've wanted? No. But have to even be there in the first place. I think us fans get a bit caught up in the results (rightfully so, I want us to win and win big on the biggest stage the sport has as well). But the consistency in which we make the tourney cannot be under stated.
So as I said, I say we have potential to become truly elite again if things break our way. Getting to a final 4, a few elite recruiting classes with the right pieces. Etc. This again doesn't guarantee success. What happened to Florida this year? Will it happen? Maybe not, but if our floor is a consistent NCAA appearance year in and year out, we as fans need to see how good that is. Expect more in terms of results,yes, but don't diminish the success.
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gutuna
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Post by gutuna on Mar 22, 2015 9:25:32 GMT -5
I agree with the reasonable expectations set out in the first post. I would add that I think it is reasonable to expect improvement in the performance of the program in post-season tournaments as a reasonable expectation. Exceeding our seed half the time in the Big East and NCAAs over a ten year period. JTIII has shown an ability to alter his base offense to fit personnel. He has shown a willingness to change his staff to improve recruiting results. I think the next piece is to improve the program's ability to perform in a tournament format.
We often hear the refrain that it's not about the other team, it is about us. I feel this is the best approach for a long-regular season and year-to-year results. In a tournament format, I do think it becomes about your opponent. How you neutralize their strengths and push them out of their comfort zone. And how to give them a look or two they have not seen extensively. I feel growth in the ability to game plan and perform in a single elimination scenario can improve.
My shorthand is that I'd like us to be close to Michigan State. The program faces a lot of the same recruiting troubles we do and talent fluctuates. But they always improve over the course of each season and tend to perform to their limit in post-season tournaments. Tom Izzo is different in temperament from JTIII. But they are both intelligent coaches with care for their players. The once place we fall short is in post-season performance and that is where I would like growth.
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Post by DuddingtonHoya on Mar 22, 2015 9:31:06 GMT -5
Ten years ago we would have definitely been happy with a coach that routinely took us to the tournament and ran a program that reflected well on the university.
What would have happened if Chris Wright hadn't been injured? Or if Otto and Whittington had stayed? Or if Josh had kept his grades up? I get that truly elite coaches have a multiplicity of options at any moment but that isn't JT3's strength.
I think a realistic goal of the program should be regularly competing for Big East regular season and tournament titles, regularly making the tournament and being in a position to make noise in it, and everything be on the up and up.
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gutuna
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Post by gutuna on Mar 22, 2015 9:38:52 GMT -5
Additionally, I definitely do not want our program to try to model what is done by Kentucky, Duke, UNC, Arizona, Kansas, or, God forbid, Syracuse. On the court results are not worth compromising the whole mission of a university. We are not, and should not be, a professional development program alone.
This is not the NCAA of the 80s, so to expect us to achieve those results are unreasonable.
When Indiana struggles to perform year after year, there is something deeply flawed about the structure of the sport and what it asks of institutions in order to achieve a high level of of constant on-court success. I hope we continue to err on the side of looking after our athletes, putting their on and off court development ahead of only results.
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Loyal Hoya
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Post by Loyal Hoya on Mar 22, 2015 10:05:50 GMT -5
Expectations in order of priority
1. a program that has integrity 2. players who meet their academic obligations and a staff that demands that they do 3. staff and players who represent the university well 4. a program that complements the other parts of the university in contributing to the personal, academic, and professional (basketball and otherwise) development of the athletes 5. a team that is competitive for the Big East title in most years and wins it as often as any other program in our league 6. a team that regularly makes the ncaa tournament (say 75% of the time) 7. a team that makes a deep run in the tournament every 4-5 years (more often than we have in the recent past)
By these standards, JTIII has been an excellent coach.
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Mar 22, 2015 10:11:50 GMT -5
Expectations in order of priority 1. a program that has integrity 2. players who meet their academic obligations and a staff that demands that they do 3. staff and players who represent the university well 4. a program that complements the other parts of the university in contributing to the personal, academic, and professional (basketball and otherwise) development of the athletes 5. a team that is competitive for the Big East title in most years and wins it as often as any other program in our league 6. a team that regularly makes the ncaa tournament (say 75% of the time) 7. a team that makes a deep run in the tournament every 4-5 years (more often than we have in the recent past) By these standards, JTIII has been an excellent coach. We throw around these expectations of maintaining integrity as if we're worried there's a chance we may all of a sudden become UK. If we're as classy a program as we like to think we are then we should have to worry about working towards being classy, it should be a given and there isn't a authentic classy culture if you have to be conscious of fostering it all the time....don't talk about it just be about it
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Post by bicentennial on Mar 22, 2015 10:25:31 GMT -5
I believe the expectation should be to be one of the top 4 Big East teams annually and to always make the NCAA tournament. Good years we should win the Big East and be top 10-15 with a chance at a final 4/championship. We should continue recruiting the best players available who view academics as an opportunity not a burden. We should continue following university academic policy while continuing to have players take real classes. We should continue getting all the extra help that the NCAA will allow to help our players perform academically while devoting countless hours to their sport. We should continue to graduate basketball players and should make every effort to welcome back our basketball alumni who leave early so they can complete their degree.
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Loyal Hoya
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Post by Loyal Hoya on Mar 22, 2015 10:41:09 GMT -5
Expectations in order of priority 1. a program that has integrity 2. players who meet their academic obligations and a staff that demands that they do 3. staff and players who represent the university well 4. a program that complements the other parts of the university in contributing to the personal, academic, and professional (basketball and otherwise) development of the athletes 5. a team that is competitive for the Big East title in most years and wins it as often as any other program in our league 6. a team that regularly makes the ncaa tournament (say 75% of the time) 7. a team that makes a deep run in the tournament every 4-5 years (more often than we have in the recent past) By these standards, JTIII has been an excellent coach. We throw around these expectations of maintaining integrity as if we're worried there's a chance we may all of a sudden become UK. If we're as classy a program as we like to think we are then we should have to worry about working towards being classy, it should be a given and there isn't a authentic classy culture if you have to be conscious of fostering it all the time....don't talk about it just be about it I absolutely agree that we should be about it and not brag about it (or use it as an excuse for other failures). However, if somebody asks what the expectations should be and if we say 5,6, and 7 on my list and not 1-4, then I think the results will be that integrity will fly out the window and, pretty soon, we will have athletic department staff members writing papers for our players. I think organizational cultures must constantly be fostered. I don't think they just independently exist without being fostered, but perhaps I am missing your point.
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Mar 22, 2015 10:44:45 GMT -5
We throw around these expectations of maintaining integrity as if we're worried there's a chance we may all of a sudden become UK. If we're as classy a program as we like to think we are then we should have to worry about working towards being classy, it should be a given and there isn't a authentic classy culture if you have to be conscious of fostering it all the time....don't talk about it just be about it I absolutely agree that we should be about it and not brag about it (or use it as an excuse for other failures). However, if somebody asks what the expectations should be and if we say 5,6, and 7 on my list and not 1-4, then I think the results will be that integrity will fly out the window and, pretty soon, we will have athletic department staff members writing papers for our players. I think organizational cultures must constantly be fostered. I don't think they just independently exist without being fostered, but perhaps I am missing your point. Oh I agree with that point, I just meant more in terms of it being a given by giving our program more credit, which I don't think you're trying to detract from, but I just think it should go without saying.
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This Just In
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Post by This Just In on Mar 22, 2015 10:50:53 GMT -5
Board expectations have been lowered. From 2007-2010 (Greg Monroe's last year), this board used to talk about getting McDonald All-American's and competing for a National title. Some poster were even touting that the University had one of the top 5 coaches in the country. Now 5 to 8 years later those days are gone. Nowadays posters celebrate beating a double-digit team as a milestone accomplishment. Other posters celebrate a double digit loss to Utah as a milestone accomplishment. In the NCAA or NIT we are no longer expected to beat a team with the same talent level. After witnessing the best team in the New Big East Villanova, lose to a middle of the road ACC team last night, maybe expectations across the whole conference should be lowered.
Is asking for a Sweet Sixteen run too much to ask? Is an 8 year plus wait now acceptable for a Sweet Sixteen?
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Mar 22, 2015 10:52:27 GMT -5
Expectations in order of priority 1. a program that has integrity 2. players who meet their academic obligations and a staff that demands that they do 3. staff and players who represent the university well 4. a program that complements the other parts of the university in contributing to the personal, academic, and professional (basketball and otherwise) development of the athletes 5. a team that is competitive for the Big East title in most years and wins it as often as any other program in our league 6. a team that regularly makes the ncaa tournament (say 75% of the time) 7. a team that makes a deep run in the tournament every 4-5 years (more often than we have in the recent past) By these standards, JTIII has been an excellent coach. It was III who, during the days/weeks following the decision of the Catholic schools to form their own conference, who referred to this new conference as The Georgetown Conference or the Georgetown League. He may have been joking but his words suggested that he felt Gtown was the top dog of this collection of schools. Well...Gtown needs to act like that via results on the court. Winning the Big East, THIS Big East, one out of four years won't cut it. To III's credit he seems to think Gtown can and will remain an elite program, that it can still win championships. The Big East and FOX Sports need him to be right on that front because as it stands right now Georgetown has greater name/brand recognition than any other program in the BE, including Villanova.
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jester
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Post by jester on Mar 22, 2015 10:58:34 GMT -5
I'll add one more to the list - have a team that students are passionate about.
There are some non final four caliber teams that I would kill for , because despite the results, the experience is much better. A season should be fun for more than the end result of each single game and whether it was a win or loss.
Sometimes I envy teams where the highs are high...I appreciate the original posters comments because once you look at each season through ncaa success things can and do get depressing. However we should expect baca success but just wanted to highlight I myself tend to value the overall game experience more and would love for that to improve. It shouldn't take much but games against rivals with low turnout really hurt (our image, the home edge, the viewing experience).
If we demand execution on the court would like to see us demand the same of ourselves as fans.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Mar 22, 2015 11:04:49 GMT -5
I'll add one more to the list - have a team that students are passionate about. There are some non final four caliber teams that I would kill for , because despite the results, the experience is much better. A season should be fun for more than the end result of each single game and whether it was a win or loss. Sometimes I envy teams where the highs are high...I appreciate the original posters comments because once you look at each season through ncaa success things can and do get depressing. However we should expect baca success but just wanted to highlight I myself tend to value the overall game experience more and would love for that to improve. It shouldn't take much but games against rivals with low turnout really hurt (our image, the home edge, the viewing experience). If we demand execution on the court would like to see us demand the same of ourselves as fans. Agreed. Fan support is subpar.
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Loyal Hoya
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Post by Loyal Hoya on Mar 22, 2015 11:16:36 GMT -5
"A team that is competitive for a Big East title in most years and wins it as often as any team in the league" does imply that we should either be the best or, at the very worst, tied for the best team in the conference over a period of time. I want to win the title every year, but I am not sure that we want to become the Gonzaga of the east coast version of the West Coast Conference. Gtown and Nova or Gtown and Butler being the Michigan State and Wisconsin of the Big East would be a good result.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Mar 22, 2015 11:20:43 GMT -5
I agree with a lot of what is posted up thread. I also want a very competitive Big East Conference. That is key to preparing the Hoyas for postseason as well as enhancing the ability to get into postseason.
As a side note, if one is going to criticize fan support I think it is reasonable to expect action (i.e., step up and attend some games or buy season tickets, $upport the program, etc). Otherwise one risks one's platform being as relevant as the cranky guys in the balcony of the Muppet Movie.
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daveg023
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Post by daveg023 on Mar 22, 2015 11:42:59 GMT -5
I agree with a lot of what is posted up thread. I also want a very competitive Big East Conference. That is key to preparing the Hoyas for postseason as well as enhancing the ability to get into postseason. As a side note, if one is going to criticize fan support I think it is reasonable to expect action (i.e., step up and attend some games or buy season tickets, $upport the program, etc). Otherwise one risks one's platform being as relevant as the cranky guys in the balcony of the Muppet Movie. This just reinforces the point that DePaul needs to make a good hire, St Johns has to right the ship (with or without Lavin), Nova needs to overcome their postseason demons like ours, etc. We are elevated or held back by the company we keep, and the next few years are critical for the reputation of this conference. I can just as easily see us becoming the A10 as I can retaining our status with the Big 5.
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mfk24
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Post by mfk24 on Mar 22, 2015 11:47:10 GMT -5
Board expectations have been lowered. From 2007-2010 (Greg Monroe's last year), this board used to talk about getting McDonald All-American's and competing for a National title. Some poster were even touting that the University had one of the top 5 coaches in the country. Now 5 to 8 years later those days are gone. Nowadays posters celebrate beating a double-digit team as a milestone accomplishment. Other posters celebrate a double digit loss to Utah as a milestone accomplishment. In the NCAA or NIT we are no longer expected to beat a team with the same talent level. After witnessing the best team in the New Big East Villanova, lose to a middle of the road ACC team last night, maybe expectations across the whole conference should be lowered. Is asking for a Sweet Sixteen run too much to ask? Is an 8 year plus wait now acceptable for a Sweet Sixteen? I think expectations at that point were too lofty and way too fast. You get one or two years of success and all of a sudden you think you should run with big dogs. What had Georgetown done in the 90s since the glory days of JTII. Not a damn thing. Sure we had hoped we were turning a corner. And in many ways we have.
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Post by puppydog100 on Mar 22, 2015 12:37:32 GMT -5
Georgetown is no longer an elite program, and I have no expectation that they will change.
JTIII is a good coach, not a great coach. If a top 25 program was looking to hire, JTIII would not be on anyone's short list. In the college game, coaching is the X factor. GU will remain highly competitive, but will not make the jump to the next level.
Quite frankly, I like it just the way it is.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2015 13:03:59 GMT -5
Board expectations have been lowered. From 2007-2010 (Greg Monroe's last year), this board used to talk about getting McDonald All-American's and competing for a National title. Some poster were even touting that the University had one of the top 5 coaches in the country. Now 5 to 8 years later those days are gone. Nowadays posters celebrate beating a double-digit team as a milestone accomplishment. Other posters celebrate a double digit loss to Utah as a milestone accomplishment. In the NCAA or NIT we are no longer expected to beat a team with the same talent level. After witnessing the best team in the New Big East Villanova, lose to a middle of the road ACC team last night, maybe expectations across the whole conference should be lowered. Is asking for a Sweet Sixteen run too much to ask? Is an 8 year plus wait now acceptable for a Sweet Sixteen? Milestone accomplishment??? … smh or nothing to hang your head over? I think the later is what was being expressed When your fresh off a final four run, you should have those expectations.. When your fresh off a season where you lost to Depaul in the 1st round of the BE tourney and subsequently lose your best player, being content with the season we just had is not Lowering your expectations It’s being realistic I don’t think posters understand how low our talent level was on this team last year. If you need a refresher watch the game at Kansas. The difference in talent was shocking to say the least.
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