rockhoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by rockhoya on Mar 10, 2015 9:13:59 GMT -5
[ thatuote author=" EtomicB" source="/post/628545/thread" timestamp="1425918425"] He deleted his account... This is too bad.. Denny had a lot of great insight, he'll be especially missed on the recruiting board where he shared a lot of interesting information on the local HS scene.. Agreed. Putting aside the fact that he was 100% correct on both of his points (ie it would have been better if we gave SH a bucket and Jabril didn't go in for the dunk at the end), I got the sense from his posts (and a single PM I received from him) that denny played the game at a level beyond high school. Too bad to lose that perspective.[/quote] Yeah he was 100% correct that we should rationalize IIIs "mistake" by transplanting soccer's norms to basketball just because they clearly apply to any and all sports for the same reasons......please, give me a break. Who in the world denies differences in cultural norms?
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Mar 10, 2015 9:36:33 GMT -5
Agreed. Putting aside the fact that he was 100% correct on both of his points (ie it would have been better if we gave SH a bucket and Jabril didn't go in for the dunk at the end), I got the sense from his posts (and a single PM I received from him) that denny played the game at a level beyond high school. Too bad to lose that perspective. Wait a minute - WHO KILLED DENNY? (sorry, had to say it) My first guess: Larry David. Guy's a menace. Also, this is the saddest departure since RDF took his dungeonball and went home for good. Fare thee well, dennis. Why you gotta hate on Larry David? It's not like he's an assassin or something.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Mar 10, 2015 9:48:39 GMT -5
Let me get this straight: We won on Saturday in a hard-fought game without our best player. We got outstanding play from a couple of seniors and a freshman who is quickly establishing himself as a real player at one of our weakest positions. Another one of our seniors got a heartwarming send-off that (1) went off perfectly, (2) had the entire arena elated, and (3) has gotten us and Seton Hall some much-deserved good press. Thanks to the outcome of a separate game--which ended at basically the same time as our game, only increasing the excitement--we got the #2 seed in the BET. And this thread now has embedded soccer clips posted to demonstrate a perceived lack of sportsmanship from the first 10 seconds of the game? And that's not even the same discussion as the debate about whether it was appropriate for a senior to dunk the ball in the last 10 seconds of the game? I'm not sure what's more mind-boggling: the sad evolution of this thread or Jerrelle Benimon getting an NBA contract. Jerrelle was a sportsman, and never once dunked in the last 10 seconds of a certain victory in his last home game as a Hoya.
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bmartin
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by bmartin on Mar 10, 2015 9:57:31 GMT -5
I'm sorry Denny left, but the soccer analogy is terrible.
1. In soccer, the reason you have to kick the ball out of bounds to stop play for an injured player is because the referee does not stop play due to the culture of faking injuries for time-wasting, penalty-baiting, etc.
2. So it is left to the players to decide when there is a legitimate injury, and stop play by kicking the ball out of bounds and then after the injured player has been taken off the field or magically recovered, the opposing team gives them possession again. The teams do not give each other a goal, or a corner kick, or a free kick in scoring range - just possession in the back half of the field.
3. If you insist on using this analogy, then the situation would be that the team with the seemingly injured player said "Play on, don't kick the ball out of bounds," and the opposing team kicked it out of bounds anyway.
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rockhoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,830
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Post by rockhoya on Mar 10, 2015 11:29:04 GMT -5
I'm sorry Denny left, but the soccer analogy is terrible. 1. In soccer, the reason you have to kick the ball out of bounds to stop play for an injured player is because the referee does not stop play because the sport has an overwhelming culture of faking injuries for time-wasting, penalty-baiting, etc. 2. So it is left to the players to decide when there is a legitimate injury, and stop play by kicking the the ball out of bounds and then after the injured player has been taken off the field or magically recovered, the opposing team gives them possession again. The teams do not give each other a goal, or a corner kick, or a free kick in scoring range - just possession in the back half of the field. 3. If you insist on using this analogy, then the situation would be that the team with the seemingly injured player said "Play on, don't kick the ball out of bounds," and the opposing team kicked it out of bounds anyway. That's what I tried to explain to him but all he did was freak out because I expressed an opinion. Obviously in a normal scenario III would've reciprocated, but it's not like Willard was particularly respectful of his wishes in this instance. It's almost like asking someone not to call fouls for you in a pickup game and then them calling a foul anyway before they know what's gonna happen. As several posters have pointed out, Tyler isn't a charity case. He does drills in practice and has had NCAA game experience. If he's the competitor he has appeared to be over the last four years then I'm sure he would've enjoyed the opportunity to get a legitimate bucket. No big deal either way though, imo.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Mar 10, 2015 12:24:11 GMT -5
I'm sorry Denny left, but the soccer analogy is terrible. 1. In soccer, the reason you have to kick the ball out of bounds to stop play for an injured player is because the referee does not stop play because the sport has an overwhelming culture of faking injuries for time-wasting, penalty-baiting, etc. 2. So it is left to the players to decide when there is a legitimate injury, and stop play by kicking the the ball out of bounds and then after the injured player has been taken off the field or magically recovered, the opposing team gives them possession again. The teams do not give each other a goal, or a corner kick, or a free kick in scoring range - just possession in the back half of the field. 3. If you insist on using this analogy, then the situation would be that the team with the seemingly injured player said "Play on, don't kick the ball out of bounds," and the opposing team kicked it out of bounds anyway. That's what I tried to explain to him but all he did was freak out because I expressed an opinion. Obviously in a normal scenario III would've reciprocated, but it's not like Willard was particularly respectful of his wishes in this instance. It's almost like asking someone not to call fouls for you in a pickup game and then them calling a foul anyway before they know what's gonna happen. As several posters have pointed out, Tyler isn't a charity case. He does drills in practice and has had NCAA game experience. If he's the competitor he has appeared to be over the last four years then I'm sure he would've enjoyed the opportunity to get a legitimate bucket. No big deal either way though, imo. Don't be revisionist Rock, it's all in the thread.. He stated he was tempted to say "ok Rock" but instead chose to continue the debate with you, you chose to post "ok Denny" to which he laughed off and said you were predictable.. At that point you went off telling him to seek help and some other stuff about playing internet grab ass(whatever that means).. You're right Tyler isn't a charity case but is it really fair to expect players from another team to go all out against a kid they know has heart issues? A kid they know is being honored because he gave up basketball due to those issues.. JT3 should have agreed to trade baskets from jump street imo..
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Elvado
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by Elvado on Mar 10, 2015 14:19:27 GMT -5
Ah another HT tempest in a teapot...
That said, III should have traded baskets and been done with it.
Tyler clearly took no offense at the open dunk and we should have reciprocated.
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rockhoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,830
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Post by rockhoya on Mar 10, 2015 15:16:11 GMT -5
That's what I tried to explain to him but all he did was freak out because I expressed an opinion. Obviously in a normal scenario III would've reciprocated, but it's not like Willard was particularly respectful of his wishes in this instance. It's almost like asking someone not to call fouls for you in a pickup game and then them calling a foul anyway before they know what's gonna happen. As several posters have pointed out, Tyler isn't a charity case. He does drills in practice and has had NCAA game experience. If he's the competitor he has appeared to be over the last four years then I'm sure he would've enjoyed the opportunity to get a legitimate bucket. No big deal either way though, imo. Don't be revisionist Rock, it's all in the thread.. He stated he was tempted to say "ok Rock" but instead chose to continue the debate with you, you chose to post "ok Denny" to which he laughed off and said you were predictable.. At that point you went off telling him to seek help and some other stuff about playing internet grab ass(whatever that means).. You're right Tyler isn't a charity case but is it really fair to expect players from another team to go all out against a kid they know has heart issues? A kid they know is being honored because he gave up basketball due to those issues.. JT3 should have agreed to trade baskets from jump street imo.. Except you're beig revisionist by omitting everything else that was discussed, I.e. The basketball related stuff. The post I said "Ok Denny" to I was going to respond with analysis but then I couldn't tell if he was trolling or not. My bad for getting frustrated when people lose sight of the crux of the decision, but people are way too sensitive around here. This is a message board, it should be centered around criticism of concepts and ideas, not posters and people you'll never meet in your life.
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Big Dog
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Post by Big Dog on Mar 10, 2015 15:33:29 GMT -5
Mods, please lock this thread before it can do any further damage.
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cheer48
Century (over 100 posts)
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Post by cheer48 on Mar 10, 2015 15:37:00 GMT -5
amen brother dog
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Mar 10, 2015 16:11:55 GMT -5
Mods, please lock this thread before it can do any further damage. Agreed, we need more time to discuss Esh scheduling G'town out of the 2002 NCAA tourney.. Just kidding.. But seriously, why can't folks just ignore the threads they don't have an interest in?
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Big Dog
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Post by Big Dog on Mar 10, 2015 16:14:10 GMT -5
Mods, please lock this thread before it can do any further damage. Agreed, we need more time to discuss Esh scheduling G'town out of the 2002 NCAA tourney.. Just kidding.. But seriously, why can't folks just ignore the threads they don't have an interest in? When the threads literally cause worthy posters to delete their accounts, I think it is okay to speak up, don't you?
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Post by Ranch Dressing on Mar 10, 2015 16:34:24 GMT -5
Let's not forget that the Seton Hall program had been suffering through weeks of major internal turmoil and negative public perception.
As much as the 2 free points gave Georgetown an "edge" in the game, Seton Hall benefitted from being at the heart of a positive news story about their basketball program.
The 2 points provided to Adams was not exactly a 100% charitable donation. There was an ancillary benefit.
When you factor in, too, that the game had no bearing on Seton Hall's post-season hopes, then I don't think the 2 points "had" to be reciprocated.
All that said, I would have given them 2 free points to call it even and completely eliminate any "edge" the free 2 points provided the Hoyas.
The Jabril dunk is a non-issue. Seriously? That's more sour grapes over a loss.
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jwp91
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Post by jwp91 on Mar 10, 2015 16:46:45 GMT -5
I'm sorry Denny left, but the soccer analogy is terrible. 1. In soccer, the reason you have to kick the ball out of bounds to stop play for an injured player is because the referee does not stop play due to the culture of faking injuries for time-wasting, penalty-baiting, etc. 2. So it is left to the players to decide when there is a legitimate injury, and stop play by kicking the ball out of bounds and then after the injured player has been taken off the field or magically recovered, the opposing team gives them possession again. The teams do not give each other a goal, or a corner kick, or a free kick in scoring range - just possession in the back half of the field. 3. If you insist on using this analogy, then the situation would be that the team with the seemingly injured player said "Play on, don't kick the ball out of bounds," and the opposing team kicked it out of bounds anyway. Sorry, BMartin, but this is false. As a soccer player since 1976 and a referee since 1981, I can tell you the referee does not stop play for fear of fake injuries etc. as you describe. The referee can stop the game at any time and restart it with a dropped ball. The referee not stopping play for injury is more a function of the the level of play and the seriousness of the injury. For many minor injuries, it is believed the professional should be able to wait until a stoppage of play for treatment. When a referee does drop a ball at the professional level you will typically see him drop it to one team or the other as opposed to creating a 'face-off' as you might find in a hockey game or a recreational league game. If you are not watching carefully, it would be easy to miss. The referee has much latitude on how a dropped ball is executed. I could not agree less with your characterization about the players determining the 'legitimacy' of the injury. The ball is kicked out of bounds for sportsmanship. There is nothing in the laws about this. The ball is returned to the team that kicked it out of bounds as a reciprocating gesture. Again there is nothing in the laws about this. It is just a tradition based on sportsmanship. And there have been many examples of unjust goals nullified by gift goals. I have also watched an unjust penalty kick squandered in the name of sportsmanship. It is not a difficult concept. Given the classy guy that JT3 is, the best move for him IMHO would have been to reciprocate deliberately. That he didn't I consider an opportunity missed vs. a lack of class.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Mar 10, 2015 18:18:30 GMT -5
Agreed, we need more time to discuss Esh scheduling G'town out of the 2002 NCAA tourney.. Just kidding.. But seriously, why can't folks just ignore the threads they don't have an interest in? When the threads literally cause worthy posters to delete their accounts, I think it is okay to speak up, don't you? Speak up, Yes.. Calling for a locking of a thread though BD? Nah, I don't care for that solution.. I have no issues when Dan or WilsonB steps in with warnings to individual posters when the debate starts to get personal or over the top but there's no need to shutdown the thread for everyone else.. I hope Denny has a change of heart but it wasn't the thread that caused him to delete his account, it was some of the folks participating in the thread that caused him to leave..
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bmartin
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by bmartin on Mar 10, 2015 19:41:37 GMT -5
I'm sorry Denny left, but the soccer analogy is terrible. 1. In soccer, the reason you have to kick the ball out of bounds to stop play for an injured player is because the referee does not stop play due to the culture of faking injuries for time-wasting, penalty-baiting, etc. 2. So it is left to the players to decide when there is a legitimate injury, and stop play by kicking the ball out of bounds and then after the injured player has been taken off the field or magically recovered, the opposing team gives them possession again. The teams do not give each other a goal, or a corner kick, or a free kick in scoring range - just possession in the back half of the field. 3. If you insist on using this analogy, then the situation would be that the team with the seemingly injured player said "Play on, don't kick the ball out of bounds," and the opposing team kicked it out of bounds anyway. Sorry, BMartin, but this is false. As a soccer player since 1976 and a referee since 1981, I can tell you the referee does not stop play for fear of fake injuries etc. as you describe. The referee can stop the game at any time and restart it with a dropped ball. The referee not stopping play for injury is more a function of the the level of play and the seriousness of the injury. For many minor injuries, it is believed the professional should be able to wait until a stoppage of play for treatment. When a referee does drop a ball at the professional level you will typically see him drop it to one team or the other as opposed to creating a 'face-off' as you might find in a hockey game or a recreational league game. If you are not watching carefully, it would be easy to miss. The referee has much latitude on how a dropped ball is executed. I could not agree less with your characterization about the players determining the 'legitimacy' of the injury. The ball is kicked out of bounds for sportsmanship. There is nothing in the laws about this. The ball is returned to the team that kicked it out of bounds as a reciprocating gesture. Again there is nothing in the laws about this. It is just a tradition based on sportsmanship. And there have been many examples of unjust goals nullified by gift goals. I have also watched an unjust penalty kick squandered in the name of sportsmanship. It is not a difficult concept. Given the classy guy that JT3 is, the best move for him IMHO would have been to reciprocate deliberately. That he didn't I consider an opportunity missed vs. a lack of class. Even if I accept everything you said it just emphasizes that it is a very different circumstance. It is common in soccer as you say. All teams know they will be on the other side and so it became an established practice in the game. Great, but it is not a major sacrifice to kick the ball out if bounds or to give it back in a sport in which 99% of possessions are empty and injury time is added on. Giving away a gift dunk in basketball is an extraordinary thing that no one asks for or expects. It was a great gesture. But I am not surprised that JTIII did not give them a freebie in return because it is not part of basketball.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Mar 10, 2015 20:06:58 GMT -5
Sorry, BMartin, but this is false. As a soccer player since 1976 and a referee since 1981, I can tell you the referee does not stop play for fear of fake injuries etc. as you describe. The referee can stop the game at any time and restart it with a dropped ball. The referee not stopping play for injury is more a function of the the level of play and the seriousness of the injury. For many minor injuries, it is believed the professional should be able to wait until a stoppage of play for treatment. When a referee does drop a ball at the professional level you will typically see him drop it to one team or the other as opposed to creating a 'face-off' as you might find in a hockey game or a recreational league game. If you are not watching carefully, it would be easy to miss. The referee has much latitude on how a dropped ball is executed. I could not agree less with your characterization about the players determining the 'legitimacy' of the injury. The ball is kicked out of bounds for sportsmanship. There is nothing in the laws about this. The ball is returned to the team that kicked it out of bounds as a reciprocating gesture. Again there is nothing in the laws about this. It is just a tradition based on sportsmanship. And there have been many examples of unjust goals nullified by gift goals. I have also watched an unjust penalty kick squandered in the name of sportsmanship.
It is not a difficult concept. Given the classy guy that JT3 is, the best move for him IMHO would have been to reciprocate deliberately. That he didn't I consider an opportunity missed vs. a lack of class. Even if I accept everything you said it just emphasizes that it is a very different circumstance. It is common in soccer as you say. All teams know they will be on the other side and so it became an established practice in the game. Great, but it is not a major sacrifice to kick the ball out if bounds or to give it back in a sport in which 99% of possessions are empty and injury time is added on. Giving away a gift dunk in basketball is an extraordinary thing that no one asks for or expects. It was a great gesture. But I am not surprised that JTIII did not give them a freebie in return because it is not part of basketball. But you're skipping the part where JWP tells us about the "many" examples of goals being given back in the name of sportsmanship.. What's worth more a goal in soccer or a dunk in basketball?
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Mar 10, 2015 20:15:02 GMT -5
So... Senior Day was pretty great, huh?
As for the Tyler part of it with regard to a lack of defense, that had occurred to me too. What occurred to me later on was that this is a man that willingly gave up basketball because, apparently, it could literally kill him with little warning. He shouldn't be banging down low even once if it's risking his life. To get the opportunity, however, to get the praise and recognition that he so richly deserves, it's difficult not to take that opportunity and is nearly as difficult to watch with a dry eye. I only want to reiterate how much respect I gained for the staff of SHU and the gentlemen wearing the Pirate uniforms who, nearly to a man, gave Tyler a pat on the back. The rest is debatable but also, to an extent, noise that detracts from the true highlight of the day.
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bmartin
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by bmartin on Mar 10, 2015 22:04:12 GMT -5
Even if I accept everything you said it just emphasizes that it is a very different circumstance. It is common in soccer as you say. All teams know they will be on the other side and so it became an established practice in the game. Great, but it is not a major sacrifice to kick the ball out if bounds or to give it back in a sport in which 99% of possessions are empty and injury time is added on. Giving away a gift dunk in basketball is an extraordinary thing that no one asks for or expects. It was a great gesture. But I am not surprised that JTIII did not give them a freebie in return because it is not part of basketball. But you're skipping the part where JWP tells us about the "many" examples of goals being given back in the name of sportsmanship.. What's worth more a goal in soccer or a dunk in basketball? I've never seen teams give away gift goals in high-level soccer. And I definitely do not see the teams that benefit from undeserved penalties after diving in the box go and give the goal back intentionally on the other end. But again, if teams have traded gift goals a few times in soccer, so what? It is not part of basketball and this was a basketball game. Seton Hall was not expected to back off but it was a very nice gesture that they did so. It would have been a great gesture for Georgetown to do the same, but it should not be expected.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Mar 11, 2015 7:20:11 GMT -5
But you're skipping the part where JWP tells us about the "many" examples of goals being given back in the name of sportsmanship.. What's worth more a goal in soccer or a dunk in basketball? I've never seen teams give away gift goals in high-level soccer. And I definitely do not see the teams that benefit from undeserved penalties after diving in the box go and give the goal back intentionally on the other end. But again, if teams have traded gift goals a few times in soccer, so what? It is not part of basketball and this was a basketball game. Seton Hall was not expected to back off but it was a very nice gesture that they did so. It would have been a great gesture for Georgetown to do the same, but it should not be expected. How many times have you seen a kid who gave up a sport due to heart problems be given a waiver to play in a high major college basketball game? The moment for Tyler was great for him and the program but while he was on the court it wasn't a "normal" game, it's unfair to expect the SH players to play him like any other opponent.. I disagree that SH wasn't expected to back off, I would have been crazy mad if they played Tyler like he was Josh or Mikael.. Can we can agree to disagree Bmartin?
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