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Post by professorhoya on Jan 11, 2015 15:14:51 GMT -5
Here's an easy standard: The head coach is not the problem with this team. If anything, we have too many recruiters on the bench and not enough coaches. The game plan hasn't been as sharp since Sydney Johnson left, and neither Hardy nor Sutton have shown as much in terms of player development. That's always a hard thing to balance because recruiting is so important. But one thing I will say is it would be nice to have a high profile shooting guru as an assistant coach that could really help in skills development in shooting. I've seen some teams employ such coach (such as Brad Stevens or Andy Enfield) and you see dramatic improvement across the board in shooting form and outside shooting. It seems that especially in an offense employing Princeton principles that the ability to shoot is vital to make it work.
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HometownHoya
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Post by HometownHoya on Jan 11, 2015 15:19:52 GMT -5
Here's a fun question: let's say hypothetically the Big East came out with a proposal to re-assign the 10 coaches in the conference by random draw. How many school's fans out of 10 would be cool with this? I'm thinking DePaul and maybe St. John's. I'm pretty confident most Georgetown fans would be scared to death of the prospect. (For the heck of it, I just did it w/ a random number generator. We ended up with Chris Mack, and JTIII ended up at Butler.) My blood just ran cold! Then again, it could have been worse ("Hello. My name is Oliver Purnell, and I just signed a five-year contract to coach men's basketball at Georgetown University."). All the possibilities are pretty bad. By far the worst in my mind would be Lavin. JT3! JT3!
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hoyasaxa2003
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 11, 2015 16:14:57 GMT -5
johnnysnowplow made some excellent points.
The other important point in all of this is to remember how much John Thompson Jr. and John Thompson III mean to the Georgetown community and basketball program as a whole. The fact that we are getting a new practice facility is in large part the result of the Thompsons. If the school were to fire JTIII, not only would it alienate the Thompsons, it would also alienate virtually all of our alumni. That would be such a huge mistake that I doubt we could recover from it.
This whole thread is silly. You don't talk about hot seats after you barely lose to a top 20 RPI team on the road. I was extremely frustrated we lost yesterday, but at this point the energy needs to be focused on turning things around, not our coaching situation.
I think it's also telling that most of the advocates of putting JT3 on the hot seat rarely post here about any other topic.
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Jan 11, 2015 16:32:40 GMT -5
A lot of people should re read the tone of the original post. I haven't been following the discussion closely but i think a lot of posters are misinterpreting the intent of the original post. Everyone stating that this is an asinine discussion as simply reading and seeing what they want to. The OP asked a legitimate question about the point at which III's seat will begin to get warm. He isn't clamoring for his removal or anything, simply offering up a discussion point about the nature of our coach's job security. Again, not asking for the coach to be fired, but simply asking a question that is relevant to the future of the program. Thankfully III doesn't seem to be as sensitive to legitimate discussion as many of the posters on this board.
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Post by Problem of Dog on Jan 11, 2015 17:19:14 GMT -5
johnnysnowplow made some excellent points. The other important point in all of this is to remember how much John Thompson Jr. and John Thompson III mean to the Georgetown community and basketball program as a whole. The fact that we are getting a new practice facility is in large part the result of the Thompsons. If the school were to fire JTIII, not only would it alienate the Thompsons, it would also alienate virtually all of our alumni. That would be such a huge mistake that I doubt we could recover from it. This whole thread is silly. You don't talk about hot seats after you barely lose to a top 20 RPI team on the road. I was extremely frustrated we lost yesterday, but at this point the energy needs to be focused on turning things around, not our coaching situation. I think it's also telling that most of the advocates of putting JT3 on the hot seat rarely post here about any other topic. So the Thompsons have us hostage? To imply that JTIII is untouchable is foolish. He shouldn't be. If we see ourselves as an elite program (which we're not), then you can't accept mediocrity. If that were to occur (say two more years missing the tournament in a row), it would be incredibly stupid to think we owe enough to the Thompson family that we should let a coach underperform.
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Post by paulioz7 on Jan 11, 2015 17:36:41 GMT -5
His seat is not hot but let's be real, players will still listen to Georgetown ' s argument as a top tier program just under the teams mentioned below. Our last top 5 player was Greg Monroe. To be sure, the competition for those top players has changed and become much more difficult if not impossible for Georgetown. They all go the Kentucky, Duke or Arizona or Kansas. If the Big East succeeds as a conference that will help recruiting. Right now the hoyas are in the mix for players from the top 30 to 70 range. So I believe it is still not overly difficult to sell those players on GU.
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Post by johnnysnowplow on Jan 11, 2015 18:00:34 GMT -5
By the way, check out any message board for any other Big East school after their basketball team has lost a game. The Xavier board is calling for Chris Mack's head tonight after the loss to Butler. The DePaul board has been running a coach replacement thread all season. St. John's has lost three in a row, and they're measuring the rope and drop for Steve Lavin. They're even criticizing Mike McDermott on the Creighton board after a one-point heartbreaker against Seton Hall. Here's a fun question: let's say hypothetically the Big East came out with a proposal to re-assign the 10 coaches in the conference by random draw. How many school's fans out of 10 would be cool with this? I'm thinking DePaul and maybe St. John's. I'm pretty confident most Georgetown fans would be scared to death of the prospect. (For the heck of it, I just did it w/ a random number generator. We ended up with Chris Mack, and JTIII ended up at Butler.) Ha, that's a fun little game. Frankly I think it could be A LOT worse than Chris Mack. But yes, the point you're making is valid. For another twist, how about if there were a coach draft? Would JTIII go outside the top 2? No chance.
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Post by hoyacane11 on Jan 11, 2015 18:13:30 GMT -5
johnnysnowplow made some excellent points. The other important point in all of this is to remember how much John Thompson Jr. and John Thompson III mean to the Georgetown community and basketball program as a whole. The fact that we are getting a new practice facility is in large part the result of the Thompsons. If the school were to fire JTIII, not only would it alienate the Thompsons, it would also alienate virtually all of our alumni. That would be such a huge mistake that I doubt we could recover from it. This whole thread is silly. You don't talk about hot seats after you barely lose to a top 20 RPI team on the road. I was extremely frustrated we lost yesterday, but at this point the energy needs to be focused on turning things around, not our coaching situation. I think it's also telling that most of the advocates of putting JT3 on the hot seat rarely post here about any other topic. So the Thompsons have us hostage? To imply that JTIII is untouchable is foolish. He shouldn't be. If we see ourselves as an elite program (which we're not), then you can't accept mediocrity. If that were to occur (say two more years missing the tournament in a row), it would be incredibly stupid to think we owe enough to the Thompson family that we should let a coach underperform. Agree. Well lately it's been go and get out coached and bounced by an inferior team or don't go. For the folks complaining about the players, who's job is it to recruit better players? Why do we still have to play Hop? This last recruiting class was impressive, but before that?
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Post by paulioz7 on Jan 11, 2015 18:49:55 GMT -5
Our seniors class was supposed to have Greg and Otto as the leaders. Not sure Otto was predicted to be gone in two years and Greg was also a bad lost. We have one good recruit after that class DSR until this year's class. Hopkins was rated high primarily because of the track record of Dematha and his size.
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calhoya
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Post by calhoya on Jan 11, 2015 19:15:09 GMT -5
Just two years ago, JT III took a woefully undermanned team and won the Big East. His failings last year were due to injury and academic probation, not coaching. Actually he had some very good games last year with a team that had no depth and missing a legitimate post. I have no problem criticizing the coach as it is part of the job to be second-guessed by fans. However, while no job is safe and no family should own a coaching position, JT III has proven a very competent coach. The interesting fact is that while there is never a shortage of critics of JT III, if you read the criticisms they are certainly not uniform but are all over the place. More uptempo, better half court game, more zone defense, more man, recruit more guards, recruit more bigs, more pressure defense, play the bench more, use Bowen, don't use Hopkins, use Reggie, don't use Reggie, and on and on.
The point is yes there should never be a safe job, but no this discussion is far too premature and JT III has credibility that should last awhile. Now if he will only listen to me and no one else everything will be just fine and we will be playing in the NCAA.
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hoyasaxa2003
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 11, 2015 19:17:39 GMT -5
johnnysnowplow made some excellent points. The other important point in all of this is to remember how much John Thompson Jr. and John Thompson III mean to the Georgetown community and basketball program as a whole. The fact that we are getting a new practice facility is in large part the result of the Thompsons. If the school were to fire JTIII, not only would it alienate the Thompsons, it would also alienate virtually all of our alumni. That would be such a huge mistake that I doubt we could recover from it. This whole thread is silly. You don't talk about hot seats after you barely lose to a top 20 RPI team on the road. I was extremely frustrated we lost yesterday, but at this point the energy needs to be focused on turning things around, not our coaching situation. I think it's also telling that most of the advocates of putting JT3 on the hot seat rarely post here about any other topic. So the Thompsons have us hostage? To imply that JTIII is untouchable is foolish. He shouldn't be. If we see ourselves as an elite program (which we're not), then you can't accept mediocrity. If that were to occur (say two more years missing the tournament in a row), it would be incredibly stupid to think we owe enough to the Thompson family that we should let a coach underperform. I never said JTIII is untouchable and I never said the Thompsons have Georgetown held hostage. Listen, if John Thompson III was a bad coach with sustained failure, I would probably be clamoring for a change too. As someone else pointed out, even Craig Esherick held on for 3 losing seasons and he may have hung on longer if he kept his mouth shut to the press. I am merely saying that we are not even close to the threshold where this should be a serious discussion. If we have 2-3 losing seasons in a row, then let's talk. For now, it's a silly discussion because the negatives right now of losing JT3 as a coach far outweigh any perceived benefit. Usually, when a school fires a coach, the reason why is because you feel you can choose somebody who can do better. Unlike a school like UCLA that can fire Howland and hire a top name, we aren't in that position. Elite coaches are not clamoring to come to Georgetown. And even if we got lucky with a Brad Stevens young type, they would likely leave for better gigs when the time came to do so. I have no problem with the thread - but keep in mind the context. If somebody randomly posted this over the summer or after another NCAA loss, I can understand the discussion. However, raising it after a loss to a good team on the road (after others in other threads have been ripping JT3) isn't necessarily the most constructive way to have this discussion.
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Post by professorhoya on Jan 11, 2015 22:33:28 GMT -5
A lot of people should re read the tone of the original post. I haven't been following the discussion closely but i think a lot of posters are misinterpreting the intent of the original post. Everyone stating that this is an asinine discussion as simply reading and seeing what they want to. The OP asked a legitimate question about the point at which III's seat will begin to get warm. He isn't clamoring for his removal or anything, simply offering up a discussion point about the nature of our coach's job security. Again, not asking for the coach to be fired, but simply asking a question that is relevant to the future of the program. Thankfully III doesn't seem to be as sensitive to legitimate discussion as many of the posters on this board. Yes, but it's a facilitating question. Throwing up a soft alley up so he who must not be named and his minions can come in and jam home their agenda.
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TC
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Post by TC on Jan 11, 2015 22:52:12 GMT -5
A lot of people should re read the tone of the original post. I haven't been following the discussion closely but i think a lot of posters are misinterpreting the intent of the original post. Everyone stating that this is an asinine discussion as simply reading and seeing what they want to. The OP asked a legitimate question about the point at which III's seat will begin to get warm. His seat gets warm when something political happens - where he embarrasses the university in some scandal. And before anyone even attempts to open their mouths about Smith or Whittington, JT3 upheld the standards of the University in both cases - those cases work to his credit in what his employers are looking for. This is an asinine discussion because this thread was not created in an offseason vacuum - it's in response to an overtime road loss to a good team where a Senior missed all six of his free throws. That's not on the Coach, and it's not even out of character with good Big East teams.
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TC
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Post by TC on Jan 11, 2015 22:56:50 GMT -5
Regular season losing record, but that's neither here nor there. I'm just trying to establish the simplest possible standard to answer the question. Georgetown's fired one basketball coach in what, four decades? So here's what our record looked like in the years immediately preceding that. Unless our record duplicates that--so, we miss the NCAA's for three straight years--to me there's no point to even take seriously somebody arguing for warm coaching seats or whatever. It's begging the question - as DFW said, Craig Esherick was not fired for performance. If JT3 wants to lose for 3 seasons AND manage to show up the University President with crazy statements of hubris, then we can talk about hot seats.
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TC
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Post by TC on Jan 11, 2015 23:11:52 GMT -5
So the Thompsons have us hostage? To imply that JTIII is untouchable is foolish. He shouldn't be. If we see ourselves as an elite program (which we're not), then you can't accept mediocrity. If that were to occur (say two more years missing the tournament in a row), it would be incredibly stupid to think we owe enough to the Thompson family that we should let a coach underperform. You're trying to apply SEC standards to a program that is the opposite of it. 11 years ago, our athletic director said that an annual NCAA tournament berth was an "unreasonable expectation". In those 11 years, we haven't built a practice facility, we haven't built a stadium, and I don't think our budget has changed much - in other words nothing has structurally changed since we had a coach who made the NCAA's once in six years and the University was satisfied with and willing to back until he showed the administration up in newspaper quotes. Now we have a Coach who has made the Final Four and has made the tournament 7 out of 10 times and whose teams routinely overachieve any expectation of them in the regular season. It's ridiculous that people think we're "being held hostage" by him. This is success for Georgetown.
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drquigley
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Post by drquigley on Jan 11, 2015 23:22:22 GMT -5
Hey guys lets remember this is Georgetown not NC, or Kentucky, or Louisville or Syracuse. As we saw last year, our players have to go to class, real classes. They don't have living and practice facilities like these other schools. And we don't have donor alums who are there to "help" our players. JTIII is a good man and a good coach and is running program we can all be proud of. If we go 5-6 years with losing seasons then we can have this discussion.
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Post by Problem of Dog on Jan 12, 2015 0:13:57 GMT -5
Hey guys lets remember this is Georgetown not NC, or Kentucky, or Louisville or Syracuse. As we saw last year, our players have to go to class, real classes. They don't have living and practice facilities like these other schools. And we don't have donor alums who are there to "help" our players. JTIII is a good man and a good coach and is running program we can all be proud of. If we go 5-6 years with losing seasons then we can have this discussion. Well, as long as we're competing against them, we should hold ourselves to similar standards of performance. A holier than thou attitude, 1) isn't justified, 2) isn't helpful. We can't just say "oh, we're a better school so it's okay that we're not good!" Obviously we're not at the point where we're "not good" but the idea that 5-6 losing seasons is what it would take to have the discussion about firing JTIII is beyond stupid.
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hoyasaxa2003
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 12, 2015 1:21:23 GMT -5
Hey guys lets remember this is Georgetown not NC, or Kentucky, or Louisville or Syracuse. As we saw last year, our players have to go to class, real classes. They don't have living and practice facilities like these other schools. And we don't have donor alums who are there to "help" our players. JTIII is a good man and a good coach and is running program we can all be proud of. If we go 5-6 years with losing seasons then we can have this discussion. Well, as long as we're competing against them, we should hold ourselves to similar standards of performance. A holier than thou attitude, 1) isn't justified, 2) isn't helpful. We can't just say "oh, we're a better school so it's okay that we're not good!" Obviously we're not at the point where we're "not good" but the idea that 5-6 losing seasons is what it would take to have the discussion about firing JTIII is beyond stupid. The fact is, we are not on the same level as North Carolina, Kentucky, or Louisville. We might have been at that level in the 1980s, but that disappeared long before JTIII (or Craig Esherick) came along. We don't recruit the way they do (we've essentially had one top 10 recruit in the last 10 years, compared to Kentucky's parade of McDonalds All Americans), we don't have their facilities, we don't have their money, and we don't have their alumni base. Would it be great to compete with them in all respects? Absolutely, but we aren't there (nor have we been for over 20 years), and that's not something that will happen overnight. Do I want to get to that level? Yes, but when you consider that the only private university even remotely close to that level is Duke, you see that it's not so easy. The funny thing is despite all of our disadvantages compared to those programs, JT3 has actually done quite well outside of March. It's ridiculous to hold ourselves to a standard that no coach could meet at Georgetown. We might have been at that level in the 1980s, but that was lost as JT Jr.'s non-Iverson 1990s teams began to go downhill. I don't think anybody here is saying that 5-6 losing seasons should be the measure of when to start this discussion, but bringing it up after an overtime road loss to a top 20 RPI team is nonsensical, especially considering how poorly some of our players played.
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Post by Problem of Dog on Jan 12, 2015 2:13:54 GMT -5
Well, as long as we're competing against them, we should hold ourselves to similar standards of performance. A holier than thou attitude, 1) isn't justified, 2) isn't helpful. We can't just say "oh, we're a better school so it's okay that we're not good!" Obviously we're not at the point where we're "not good" but the idea that 5-6 losing seasons is what it would take to have the discussion about firing JTIII is beyond stupid. The fact is, we are not on the same level as North Carolina, Kentucky, or Louisville. We might have been at that level in the 1980s, but that disappeared long before JTIII (or Craig Esherick) came along. We don't recruit the way they do (we've essentially had one top 10 recruit in the last 10 years, compared to Kentucky's parade of McDonalds All Americans), we don't have their facilities, we don't have their money, and we don't have their alumni base. Would it be great to compete with them in all respects? Absolutely, but we aren't there (nor have we been for over 20 years), and that's not something that will happen overnight. Do I want to get to that level? Yes, but when you consider that the only private university even remotely close to that level is Duke, you see that it's not so easy. The funny thing is despite all of our disadvantages compared to those programs, JT3 has actually done quite well outside of March. It's ridiculous to hold ourselves to a standard that no coach could meet at Georgetown. We might have been at that level in the 1980s, but that was lost as JT Jr.'s non-Iverson 1990s teams began to go downhill. I don't think anybody here is saying that 5-6 losing seasons should be the measure of when to start this discussion, but bringing it up after an overtime road loss to a top 20 RPI team is nonsensical, especially considering how poorly some of our players played.The poster I was responding to said literally that.
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HoyaFanNY
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Post by HoyaFanNY on Jan 12, 2015 5:22:50 GMT -5
fact is that playing hopkins 21 minutes last saturday was coaching malpractice. having your best offensive player on the bench in overtime down 5 with 1:30 left wasn't much better. his teams have the same offenive issues against zone defenses year after year. he recruits these players and his job is to put them in the best possible situation to win games and he is not doing that right now and has not done that the past number of years. the teams with monroe, vaughn, freeman, clark and wright stunk defensively...now his past few teams (other than a dominant year from otto) have stunk offenively.
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