SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 17,736
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Post by SFHoya99 on Mar 17, 2015 15:34:32 GMT -5
Please feel free to blast JTIII's tournament record all you want, but can we stop calling him a "solid" regular season coach? For his 11 years so far as head coach, here's the end of season (including, but not overweighting, tourney performance) average Pomeroy rank by Program: 1. Kansas 6.9 2. Duke 8.3 3. Wisconsin 13.9 4. Louisville 15.0 5. Ohio State 15.2 6. North Carolina 16.1 7. Michigan State 16.5 8. Florida 20.3 9. Georgetown 24.6That's right. Yes, Pomeroy's not the end-all, be-all. And yes 9-16 are bunched really tight (between 24-28), but it isn't a minor accomplishment to be a Top 25 program year in and year out. Most schools can't keep it up consistently. There are 350+ programs in DI every year. There are about 70 programs in the six top conferences plus another 10-20 from smaller conferences that compete. We've average 9th in terms of overall performance. Yeah, post-season failures. Got it. But give more credit than "solid" for the overall performance. Nice work--for both you and JTIII. (Yes, the preceding statement does not preclude the fact that I too would like us to win in the NCAAs.) If I'm not mistaken, Pomeroy does have some recency weighting, so naturally postseason does carry some additional weight. More impressive are the programs behind GU: 10 Pittsburgh 25.2 11 Syracuse 25.4 12 Kentucky 25.4 13 Gonzaga 26.0 14 Villanova 26.2 15 Texas 27.5 16 Arizona 28.5 17 Connecticut 30.0 18 Memphis 34.2 19 Notre Dame 36.4 20 West Virginia 36.9 21 UCLA 38.5 22 Illinois 39.5 23 Xavier 44.2 24 Kansas St. 44.6 25 Tennessee 44.6 26 Marquette 44.7 27 Oklahoma St. 47.8 28 Maryland 49.8 29 Clemson 51.9 30 BYU 52.5 31 Wichita St. 52.7 32 Washington 52.8 33 VCU 53.0 34 Texas A&M 53.8 35 Purdue 55.2 36 Butler 55.3 37 San Diego St. 55.4 38 Cincinnati 55.5 39 Miami FL 55.7 40 Michigan 55.7 41 Florida St. 55.8 42 Vanderbilt 56.0 43 Stanford 57.0 44 Creighton 57.6 45 Oklahoma 58.4 46 Alabama 60.2 47 North Carolina St. 60.3 48 New Mexico 61.4 49 Minnesota 61.5 50 Virginia 62.7
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Post by badgerhoya on Mar 17, 2015 15:42:38 GMT -5
Please feel free to blast JTIII's tournament record all you want, but can we stop calling him a "solid" regular season coach? For his 11 years so far as head coach, here's the end of season (including, but not overweighting, tourney performance) average Pomeroy rank by Program: 1. Kansas 6.9 2. Duke 8.3 3. Wisconsin 13.9 4. Louisville 15.0 5. Ohio State 15.2 6. North Carolina 16.1 7. Michigan State 16.5 8. Florida 20.3 9. Georgetown 24.6That's right. Yes, Pomeroy's not the end-all, be-all. And yes 9-16 are bunched really tight (between 24-28), but it isn't a minor accomplishment to be a Top 25 program year in and year out. Most schools can't keep it up consistently. There are 350+ programs in DI every year. There are about 70 programs in the six top conferences plus another 10-20 from smaller conferences that compete. We've average 9th in terms of overall performance. Yeah, post-season failures. Got it. But give more credit than "solid" for the overall performance. And to make Dog's point for him: Five of those nine names are either current hall of famers or sure-fire future ones; a sixth (Billy Donovan) is a likely Hall of Famer; two others aren't too shabby (including Ryan, who may also be a Hall of Famer, considering his sub-D-I success). Oh, and then there's JTIII. Honestly, there's no "may" about Bo Ryan being a HOF coach. Including his D3 years, he has over 700 wins, a .763 winning percentage, was the coach of the most successful program of the '90s (266-26), and 4 national championships.
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Filo
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,906
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Post by Filo on Mar 17, 2015 15:48:50 GMT -5
All they've done is been to SEVENTEEN consecutive NCAA tournaments! Look, the narrative can change on a dime. It wasn't that long ago that Bo Ryan was actually considered an NCAA underachiever, with one Elite Eight appearance in the first 13 years of his tenure, despite several high seeds. With the NCAA run last year, you don't hear anything about that this year. I look to Arizona in this regard. They really struggled in the tournament for a few years but they negated all that with some good runs, including a number of final fours and a championship. For example: -- in '92 they lost in the opening round as a 3 seed -- in '93 they lost in the opening round as a 2 seed -- in '95 they lost in the opening round as a 5 seed. No one remembers or cares, since they went to the Final Four in '94 and then won it all in '97. Point being that the Hoyas just needs to make some deep runs and the recent disaters will be long-forgotten. Here's hoping they start the streak of deep runs this year!
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TBird41
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
"Roy! I Love All 7'2" of you Roy!"
Posts: 8,740
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Post by TBird41 on Mar 17, 2015 15:50:43 GMT -5
I've always been curious about this: Which Division I coaches in recent history have been fired after a year in which they made the NCAA Tournament? The only two that immediately come to mind having done no research are Ben Howland from UCLA and Louis Orr from Seton Hall in 2006. So...."extenuating circumstances" and "wow, that did NOT turn out how they wanted". There have to be more though...maybe if we give Crean and Lavin a few days. The Gophers fired Tubby Smith after he won a game in 2013 (against Ben Howland and UCLA).
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Big Dog
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,912
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Post by Big Dog on Mar 17, 2015 16:09:09 GMT -5
How do you think HoF coaches establish their reps? Over countless years of flawless coaching? III has taken it to many HoF coaches in his short time on the hilltop, I don't see what's so far fetched. Throw a sweet sixteen or elite eight run or two in that stretch since 2007 (we certainly had the talent to make some noise) and this isn't even a discussion. HoF coaches don't have perfect resumes if you haven't noticed, and their status' certainly aren't based solely off of what they did in the first decade of their careers, though they could be in certain situations. Look, I'm not the one who brought up the HOF - and then backpedaled furiously shouting "straw man!" after it was pointed out that it seemed a silly place to take this debate. I'd be absolutely delighted if JT3 turns into a HOF level coach. That's not what he is right now. No one has said it's impossible that he could become one. First step to that would be to reverse the recent trend of postseason catastrophes. You aren't much for precision and accuracy, eh?
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Mar 17, 2015 16:19:43 GMT -5
Is it Thursday yet? Please??
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WVHoyasfan
Bulldog (over 250 posts)
GREATEST HOYA EVER!!!!!
Posts: 275
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Post by WVHoyasfan on Mar 17, 2015 22:31:32 GMT -5
2005: Missed tourney 2006: 7 seed 2007: 2 seed 2008: 2 seed 2009: Missed tourney 2010: 3 seed 2011: 6 seed 2012: 3 seed 2013: 2 seed 2014: Missed tourney 2015: 4 seed This is an extraordinary sustained run of being an elite program. It is jaw-dropping how quickly we got here given the depths of the Esherick era. You don't have this kind of year-in-year-out top 30 level success under an average much less poor coach. Anyone who wants to weigh the results of 5 (or even 6 games) over these decade-long results is an idiot. Thank god they aren't in charge of the program. I get that emotionally and in terms of media perception the tournament results are overwhelming. But grow up. There is no rational argument for this thread even existing. That remains true with a loss in the single game being played on Thursday. The tournament runs have come and will again. But they are largely a crapshoot. That list is impressive, and speaks to JT3's greatest strength as a coach: Scheduling. The guy has the formula for seeding success down to a science. As a tournament coach, however, he has been a train wreck for the better part of 8 seasons now. It's easy to wipe all of those away as random results, but I don't think it's honest. By his own standards, he divides the season into four parts: The non-conference portion of the season, the conference portion of the season, the Big East Tournament and the NCAAs. Here's how he has done during those 4 portions of the season since 2010: Non-conference record: 56-10 Big East conference: 66-42 Big East Tournament: 3-6 NCAA Tournament: 1-4 The guy's teams knock it out of the park before the New Year, usually hold their own in conference, then gas out in the postseason. On his four fronts, he has been successful on only half of them. And all that good work done early in seasons has been completely undone by what has happened in the postseason. JT3's job is clearly secure, and with good reason. He's a good man and representative of the University. IMO, though, he ranks out as an average basketball coach. He's running a fine, clean program. But let's not pretend what has happened in the tourney recently is all just bad luck. I just don't buy that. So let's start to reverse that narrative this week. Exactly Guru!!We all agree he is a great man and runs the program the right way but we cannot just over look all the let downs his teams have had in the NCAA tourney.The big problem with his teams is they peak to fast every year during regular season and start going down hill by the time the NCAA tourney comes.Everybody else sees this from opposing teams fans,to the news and media.I agree he is a great person but we cannot keep over looking how bad his teams are in the tourney.The only people that can change this is JT3 and his team and go on a long run in the tourney.Sweet 16 would be nice.
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sleepy
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,079
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Post by sleepy on Mar 17, 2015 22:42:38 GMT -5
That list is impressive, and speaks to JT3's greatest strength as a coach: Scheduling. The guy has the formula for seeding success down to a science. As a tournament coach, however, he has been a train wreck for the better part of 8 seasons now. It's easy to wipe all of those away as random results, but I don't think it's honest. By his own standards, he divides the season into four parts: The non-conference portion of the season, the conference portion of the season, the Big East Tournament and the NCAAs. Here's how he has done during those 4 portions of the season since 2010: Non-conference record: 56-10 Big East conference: 66-42 Big East Tournament: 3-6 NCAA Tournament: 1-4 The guy's teams knock it out of the park before the New Year, usually hold their own in conference, then gas out in the postseason. On his four fronts, he has been successful on only half of them. And all that good work done early in seasons has been completely undone by what has happened in the postseason. JT3's job is clearly secure, and with good reason. He's a good man and representative of the University. IMO, though, he ranks out as an average basketball coach. He's running a fine, clean program. But let's not pretend what has happened in the tourney recently is all just bad luck. I just don't buy that. So let's start to reverse that narrative this week. Exactly Guru!!We all agree he is a great man and runs the program the right way but we cannot just over look all the let downs his teams have had in the NCAA tourney.The big problem with his teams is they peak to fast every year during regular season and start going down hill by the time the NCAA tourney comes.Everybody else sees this from opposing teams fans,to the news and media.I agree he is a great person but we cannot keep over looking how bad his teams are in the tourney.The only people that can change this is JT3 and his team and go on a long run in the tourney.Sweet 16 would be nice. Point out one person that ignores the tourny let downs. Point out one single person. I doubt you could point out a single person on this forum, in this country, or on this planet that ignores the upsets. What is even the point of this post?
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WVHoyasfan
Bulldog (over 250 posts)
GREATEST HOYA EVER!!!!!
Posts: 275
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Post by WVHoyasfan on Mar 17, 2015 22:53:45 GMT -5
Exactly Guru!!We all agree he is a great man and runs the program the right way but we cannot just over look all the let downs his teams have had in the NCAA tourney.The big problem with his teams is they peak to fast every year during regular season and start going down hill by the time the NCAA tourney comes.Everybody else sees this from opposing teams fans,to the news and media.I agree he is a great person but we cannot keep over looking how bad his teams are in the tourney.The only people that can change this is JT3 and his team and go on a long run in the tourney.Sweet 16 would be nice. Point out one person that ignores the tourny let downs. Point out one single person. I doubt you could point out a single person on this forum, in this country, or on this planet that ignores the upsets. What is even the point of this post? Sleepy I am not trying to point out nobody..I am just stating that if this keeps up that something has to be done thats all.I am trying to have a conversation and not trying to start trouble.Im sorry to anybody if I made them mad.
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bmartin
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,459
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Post by bmartin on Mar 17, 2015 22:55:20 GMT -5
Nobody ignores them but they are not the whole season. People who judge only on the NCAA tournament are not really college basketball fans.
Why are you talking about getting rid of the coach today? It's been two years since FGCU. We have discussed all that multiple times since then. This is this team and this is this year. Just talk about this game and this team for a couple of days and save the bull for the offseason.
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DanMcQ
Moderator
Posts: 30,506
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Post by DanMcQ on Mar 17, 2015 22:59:54 GMT -5
Time to shut this one down until the offseason.
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