beenaround
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,475
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Post by beenaround on Mar 17, 2015 13:09:39 GMT -5
1. I didn't want to read the updated post on this thread..but its hard to ignore. 2. It seems the discussion is swinging from Hall of Fame caliber coach to bum. C'mon. The inescapable fact is that JT3 has given us some very very good regular seasons, especially considering the many obstacles inherent at Gtown. There was also the Final Four Run, which honestly, I never expected to see again. Being at the Meadowlands as we rallied to beat UNC in overtime was exhilarating. 3. But, I hope even the strongest supporters are not simply ignoring the string of embarrassing first round defeats, and simply writing them off as "small sample size', "underseeded team".."once in a lifetime shooting performance" etc. We were run off the court by Florida Gulf Coast..not just hot shooting, but many posterizing dunks. Bottom Line...III gets the credit for the great regular seasons, but in D1 hoop, the NCAA tourney DOES matter, and I would hope we all agree that he bears some responsibility in that. 4. JT3 is a good, solid, major D1 coach, a fantastic person and representative of GU and is not on the hot seat. But those who ask for better results in the tourney are far from wrong. First round exits year after year don't seem like a pure coincidence to me. And...do I have the answer for tourney success..no I don't. I'm an old guy on a keyboard.
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sleepy
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by sleepy on Mar 17, 2015 13:16:52 GMT -5
Here is his complete record (2005-2015) compared with a well-regarded mystery Big East Coach: JTIII Non-conf record: 119-30 (.799) ?? Non-Conf record: 141-40 (.779) JTIII BE conf record: 119-73 (.620) with 3 BE regular season Championships ?? BE conf record: 125-67 (.651) with 2 BE regular season Championships JTIII BET record: 11-11 (.500) with one Championship and two other finals ?? BET record: 10-10 (.500) with one Championship and no other trip to finals JTIII NCAA record: 8-7 (.533) with trips to Final 4 and Sweet 16, but with 2 exits in Round of 32 and 3 in First Round ?? NCAA record: 13-9 (.591) with trips to Final 4, Elite 8, 2 Sweet 16s, but with 2 exits in Round of 32 and 3 in First Round Obviously, that coach is Jay Wright. He has one Elite 8 and one more trip to Sweet 16 over JTIII in the same span of time...but he has 1 less BE regular season title and 2 less trips to the BET Final and the same number of embarrassing flameouts in the NCAA. Which makes the calls for III to be fired from the Villanova board particularly humorous. It's possible to cheer for Villanova when you just consider their team and coach and conference affiliation. It's nearly impossible when you have had any contact with their fans. I'm really on the fence of pulling for them for the final four and hoping they are the first one seed to lose to a 16.
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 17,774
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Post by SFHoya99 on Mar 17, 2015 13:25:02 GMT -5
I'm going to throw this out there:
I'm not sure the odds of JTIII being let go are that much higher than the odds of him exceeding his dad's career win total. Go! This obviously speaks to how secure he is here but it also speaks to how successful he's been in total.
Defining a season by one loss -- which is what most of the anti-JTIII crowd is doing -- is silly to my mind, no matter the timing or how bad the loss is.
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Big Dog
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by Big Dog on Mar 17, 2015 13:34:24 GMT -5
1. I didn't want to read the updated post on this thread..but its hard to ignore. 2. It seems the discussion is swinging from Hall of Fame caliber coach to bum. C'mon. The inescapable fact is that JT3 has given us some very very good regular seasons, especially considering the many obstacles inherent at Gtown. There was also the Final Four Run, which honestly, I never expected to see again. Being at the Meadowlands as we rallied to beat UNC in overtime was exhilarating. 3. But, I hope even the strongest supporters are not simply ignoring the string of embarrassing first round defeats, and simply writing them off as "small sample size', "underseeded team".."once in a lifetime shooting performance" etc. We were run off the court by Florida Gulf Coast..not just hot shooting, but many posterizing dunks. Bottom Line...III gets the credit for the great regular seasons, but in D1 hoop, the NCAA tourney DOES matter, and I would hope we all agree that he bears some responsibility in that. 4. JT3 is a good, solid, major D1 coach, a fantastic person and representative of GU and is not on the hot seat. But those who ask for better results in the tourney are far from wrong. First round exits year after year don't seem like a pure coincidence to me. And...do I have the answer for tourney success..no I don't. I'm an old guy on a keyboard. I see now that these threads survive only on strawmen. No one is saying there is nothing to critique or that we can't ask for greater tourney success. No one is saying the NCAA doesn't matter. No one is saying he is going into the HOF (although certainly nothing about his coaching career to date forecloses it).
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Mar 17, 2015 13:39:57 GMT -5
Question 1: Do you wish to comment on whether you believe the Hoyas will make it to the Sweet Sixteen? Question 2: Every other poster keeps repeating that the school cannot get a coach as good as JTIII but a 2.8 million per year salary is not chump change and neither is having the 10th largest basketball budget in Division I. Based on the figures above how does this mesh with the narrative that JTIII is as good as it gets or that the post-season has not been underwhelming? (1) I do think we will win on Thursday. I realize superstition is silly, but I don't want to get ahead of ourselves. I feel good about our bracket, though. (2) $2.8 in salary is not chump change. However, does anybody seriously think that the Georgetown administration would be willing to hand over $2.8 million in salary to any potential replacement? I think the odds are really low. Back in 2004, John Thompson III made only about $400,000 (ironically, JT Jr. made a little more than he did). Granted, his salary went up a lot, but I also don't see the university spending a ton of money on a semi-decent coach like Purnell. And, any proven coach who commands that amount of money is either already in a great job, or they would have no reason to come to Georgetown.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Mar 17, 2015 13:43:19 GMT -5
I see now that these threads survive only on strawmen. No one is saying there is nothing to critique or that we can't ask for greater tourney success. No one is saying the NCAA doesn't matter. No one is saying he is going into the HOF (although certainly nothing about his coaching career to date forecloses it). I agree. People set up the false choice that (a) if you support JTIII, (b) you are also thrilled with everything about the program. I am a big supporter of JTIII, but that doesn't mean I haven't been disappointed in the post-season. I have been hugely disappointed. I also acknowledge that the March results have a huge impact on the narrative surrounding our program, and it hasn't been a positive one. I am encouraged, however, by JTIII's move toward recruiting more athletes and filling his assistant coach spots with people who can get out and recruit really well. BTW, part of the reason why many people ignore college basketball until the tournament is because the single-elimination format is a lot of fun, and part of that is the upsets. If we had a college basketball playoff with best of 5 or 7 series, the best team would almost always win (I'm confident we would've beat teams like Ohio and FGCU under such a scenario), but the public would not be nearly as engaged.
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FLHoya
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Proud Member of Generation Burton
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Post by FLHoya on Mar 17, 2015 14:18:27 GMT -5
I've always been curious about this:
Which Division I coaches in recent history have been fired after a year in which they made the NCAA Tournament?
The only two that immediately come to mind having done no research are Ben Howland from UCLA and Louis Orr from Seton Hall in 2006. So...."extenuating circumstances" and "wow, that did NOT turn out how they wanted".
There have to be more though...maybe if we give Crean and Lavin a few days.
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drquigley
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,385
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Post by drquigley on Mar 17, 2015 14:34:15 GMT -5
Okay, I ran the numbers and since Nova beat us in 1985, there have been 116 final four teams. Only 7 were were from small, non-div 1 football, non-Duke private schools. 5 were BE teams (Nova, Seton Hall, Marquette, Providence and us) and the other 2 appearances were from Butler, a current BE team. We are competing in a large pond filled with sharks. The fact that we can swim with these sharks and not be devoured is a pretty big accomplishment. And one of these days all the pieces will come together and us, or another BE team will get to the final four and maybe win it all. Also stop quoting coaches salary and program expenditures when comparing our bball program to those of other schools. Just visit the athletic facilities, athletic dorms, and general worship of athletes at these schools and then compare them to us. Oh yeah, also compare the course requirements and academic standards at these schools to ours. Think Josh would have been suspended last year at the Cuse or Whit been kicked out of Carolina?
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iverwig
Century (over 100 posts)
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Post by iverwig on Mar 17, 2015 14:42:40 GMT -5
1. I didn't want to read the updated post on this thread..but its hard to ignore. 2. It seems the discussion is swinging from Hall of Fame caliber coach to bum. C'mon. The inescapable fact is that JT3 has given us some very very good regular seasons, especially considering the many obstacles inherent at Gtown. There was also the Final Four Run, which honestly, I never expected to see again. Being at the Meadowlands as we rallied to beat UNC in overtime was exhilarating. 3. But, I hope even the strongest supporters are not simply ignoring the string of embarrassing first round defeats, and simply writing them off as "small sample size', "underseeded team".."once in a lifetime shooting performance" etc. We were run off the court by Florida Gulf Coast..not just hot shooting, but many posterizing dunks. Bottom Line...III gets the credit for the great regular seasons, but in D1 hoop, the NCAA tourney DOES matter, and I would hope we all agree that he bears some responsibility in that. 4. JT3 is a good, solid, major D1 coach, a fantastic person and representative of GU and is not on the hot seat. But those who ask for better results in the tourney are far from wrong. First round exits year after year don't seem like a pure coincidence to me. And...do I have the answer for tourney success..no I don't. I'm an old guy on a keyboard. Well said!
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by SFHoya99 on Mar 17, 2015 14:44:16 GMT -5
Please feel free to blast JTIII's tournament record all you want, but can we stop calling him a "solid" regular season coach? For his 11 years so far as head coach, here's the end of season (including, but not overweighting, tourney performance) average Pomeroy rank by Program:
1. Kansas 6.9 2. Duke 8.3 3. Wisconsin 13.9 4. Louisville 15.0 5. Ohio State 15.2 6. North Carolina 16.1 7. Michigan State 16.5 8. Florida 20.3 9. Georgetown 24.6
That's right. Yes, Pomeroy's not the end-all, be-all. And yes 9-16 are bunched really tight (between 24-28), but it isn't a minor accomplishment to be a Top 25 program year in and year out. Most schools can't keep it up consistently.
There are 350+ programs in DI every year. There are about 70 programs in the six top conferences plus another 10-20 from smaller conferences that compete. We've average 9th in terms of overall performance.
Yeah, post-season failures. Got it. But give more credit than "solid" for the overall performance.
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guru
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Post by guru on Mar 17, 2015 14:54:51 GMT -5
Please feel free to blast JTIII's tournament record all you want, but can we stop calling him a "solid" regular season coach? For his 11 years so far as head coach, here's the end of season (including, but not overweighting, tourney performance) average Pomeroy rank by Program: 1. Kansas 6.9 2. Duke 8.3 3. Wisconsin 13.9 4. Louisville 15.0 5. Ohio State 15.2 6. North Carolina 16.1 7. Michigan State 16.5 8. Florida 20.3 9. Georgetown 24.6That's right. Yes, Pomeroy's not the end-all, be-all. And yes 9-16 are bunched really tight (between 24-28), but it isn't a minor accomplishment to be a Top 25 program year in and year out. Most schools can't keep it up consistently. There are 350+ programs in DI every year. There are about 70 programs in the six top conferences plus another 10-20 from smaller conferences that compete. We've average 9th in terms of overall performance. Yeah, post-season failures. Got it. But give more credit than "solid" for the overall performance. Guy has been more than solid in regular season. He knocks it out of the park during most regular seasons. And hot damn can the man build a schedule.
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Big Dog
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Posts: 3,912
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Post by Big Dog on Mar 17, 2015 14:55:10 GMT -5
Please feel free to blast JTIII's tournament record all you want, but can we stop calling him a "solid" regular season coach? For his 11 years so far as head coach, here's the end of season (including, but not overweighting, tourney performance) average Pomeroy rank by Program: 1. Kansas 6.9 2. Duke 8.3 3. Wisconsin 13.9 4. Louisville 15.0 5. Ohio State 15.2 6. North Carolina 16.1 7. Michigan State 16.5 8. Florida 20.3 9. Georgetown 24.6That's right. Yes, Pomeroy's not the end-all, be-all. And yes 9-16 are bunched really tight (between 24-28), but it isn't a minor accomplishment to be a Top 25 program year in and year out. Most schools can't keep it up consistently. There are 350+ programs in DI every year. There are about 70 programs in the six top conferences plus another 10-20 from smaller conferences that compete. We've average 9th in terms of overall performance. Yeah, post-season failures. Got it. But give more credit than "solid" for the overall performance. Wow, Wisconsin.
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Post by aleutianhoya on Mar 17, 2015 14:57:52 GMT -5
Please feel free to blast JTIII's tournament record all you want, but can we stop calling him a "solid" regular season coach? For his 11 years so far as head coach, here's the end of season (including, but not overweighting, tourney performance) average Pomeroy rank by Program: 1. Kansas 6.9 2. Duke 8.3 3. Wisconsin 13.9 4. Louisville 15.0 5. Ohio State 15.2 6. North Carolina 16.1 7. Michigan State 16.5 8. Florida 20.3 9. Georgetown 24.6That's right. Yes, Pomeroy's not the end-all, be-all. And yes 9-16 are bunched really tight (between 24-28), but it isn't a minor accomplishment to be a Top 25 program year in and year out. Most schools can't keep it up consistently. There are 350+ programs in DI every year. There are about 70 programs in the six top conferences plus another 10-20 from smaller conferences that compete. We've average 9th in terms of overall performance. Yeah, post-season failures. Got it. But give more credit than "solid" for the overall performance. And to make Dog's point for him: Five of those nine names are either current hall of famers or sure-fire future ones; a sixth (Billy Donovan) is a likely Hall of Famer; two others aren't too shabby (including Ryan, who may also be a Hall of Famer, considering his sub-D-I success). Oh, and then there's JTIII.
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hoyazeke
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Post by hoyazeke on Mar 17, 2015 14:58:50 GMT -5
I see now that these threads survive only on strawmen. No one is saying there is nothing to critique or that we can't ask for greater tourney success. No one is saying the NCAA doesn't matter. No one is saying he is going into the HOF (although certainly nothing about his coaching career to date forecloses it). I agree. People set up the false choice that (a) if you support JTIII, (b) you are also thrilled with everything about the program. I am a big supporter of JTIII, but that doesn't mean I haven't been disappointed in the post-season. I have been hugely disappointed. I also acknowledge that the March results have a huge impact on the narrative surrounding our program, and it hasn't been a positive one. I am encouraged, however, by JTIII's move toward recruiting more athletes and filling his assistant coach spots with people who can get out and recruit really well. BTW, part of the reason why many people ignore college basketball until the tournament is because the single-elimination format is a lot of fun, and part of that is the upsets. If we had a college basketball playoff with best of 5 or 7 series, the best team would almost always win (I'm confident we would've beat teams like Ohio and FGCU under such a scenario), but the public would not be nearly as engaged. The better team would win in a best of 3. The only one of tourney upsets that I think we lose a series is the VCU team. That is only because Chris wasn't healthy.
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Post by aleutianhoya on Mar 17, 2015 15:01:34 GMT -5
Please feel free to blast JTIII's tournament record all you want, but can we stop calling him a "solid" regular season coach? For his 11 years so far as head coach, here's the end of season (including, but not overweighting, tourney performance) average Pomeroy rank by Program: 1. Kansas 6.9 2. Duke 8.3 3. Wisconsin 13.9 4. Louisville 15.0 5. Ohio State 15.2 6. North Carolina 16.1 7. Michigan State 16.5 8. Florida 20.3 9. Georgetown 24.6That's right. Yes, Pomeroy's not the end-all, be-all. And yes 9-16 are bunched really tight (between 24-28), but it isn't a minor accomplishment to be a Top 25 program year in and year out. Most schools can't keep it up consistently. There are 350+ programs in DI every year. There are about 70 programs in the six top conferences plus another 10-20 from smaller conferences that compete. We've average 9th in terms of overall performance. Yeah, post-season failures. Got it. But give more credit than "solid" for the overall performance. Wow, Wisconsin. All they've done is been to SEVENTEEN consecutive NCAA tournaments! Look, the narrative can change on a dime. It wasn't that long ago that Bo Ryan was actually considered an NCAA underachiever, with one Elite Eight appearance in the first 13 years of his tenure, despite several high seeds. With the NCAA run last year, you don't hear anything about that this year.
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Mar 17, 2015 15:01:34 GMT -5
I said HOF-caliber reg.-season performance. Is there any meaningful gap between III's regular season run and any given ten-year performance of somebody like Boeheim? Obviously ten years doesnt get you into the HOF. Whatever, man. You are entitled to be an emotional irrational basket case if you want to. Fans usually are. I am capable of felling that way. But "hot seat" type discussion, which you are disclaiming anyway? Foolish. Irrational emotional basket case? Um, OK? I think maybe saying he's a Hall of Fame "regular season" coach is probably the closest thing to irrational in this exchange, but if you need to vent, fire away. And with that I will take my leave of this very odd exchange. How do you think HoF coaches establish their reps? Over countless years of flawless coaching? III has taken it to many HoF coaches in his short time on the hilltop, I don't see what's so far fetched. Throw a sweet sixteen or elite eight run or two in that stretch since 2007 (we certainly had the talent to make some noise) and this isn't even a discussion. HoF coaches don't have perfect resumes if you haven't noticed, and their status' certainly aren't based solely off of what they did in the first decade of their careers, though they could be in certain situations.
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canissaxa
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Post by canissaxa on Mar 17, 2015 15:03:20 GMT -5
Please feel free to blast JTIII's tournament record all you want, but can we stop calling him a "solid" regular season coach? For his 11 years so far as head coach, here's the end of season (including, but not overweighting, tourney performance) average Pomeroy rank by Program: 1. Kansas 6.9 2. Duke 8.3 3. Wisconsin 13.9 4. Louisville 15.0 5. Ohio State 15.2 6. North Carolina 16.1 7. Michigan State 16.5 8. Florida 20.3 9. Georgetown 24.6That's right. Yes, Pomeroy's not the end-all, be-all. And yes 9-16 are bunched really tight (between 24-28), but it isn't a minor accomplishment to be a Top 25 program year in and year out. Most schools can't keep it up consistently. There are 350+ programs in DI every year. There are about 70 programs in the six top conferences plus another 10-20 from smaller conferences that compete. We've average 9th in terms of overall performance. Yeah, post-season failures. Got it. But give more credit than "solid" for the overall performance. Nice work--for both you and JTIII. (Yes, the preceding statement does not preclude the fact that I too would like us to win in the NCAAs.) If I'm not mistaken, Pomeroy does have some recency weighting, so naturally postseason does carry some additional weight.
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guru
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Post by guru on Mar 17, 2015 15:21:18 GMT -5
Irrational emotional basket case? Um, OK? I think maybe saying he's a Hall of Fame "regular season" coach is probably the closest thing to irrational in this exchange, but if you need to vent, fire away. And with that I will take my leave of this very odd exchange. How do you think HoF coaches establish their reps? Over countless years of flawless coaching? III has taken it to many HoF coaches in his short time on the hilltop, I don't see what's so far fetched. Throw a sweet sixteen or elite eight run or two in that stretch since 2007 (we certainly had the talent to make some noise) and this isn't even a discussion. HoF coaches don't have perfect resumes if you haven't noticed, and their status' certainly aren't based solely off of what they did in the first decade of their careers, though they could be in certain situations. Look, I'm not the one who brought up the HOF - and then backpedaled furiously shouting "straw man!" after it was pointed out that it seemed a silly place to take this debate. I'd be absolutely delighted if JT3 turns into a HOF level coach. That's not what he is right now. No one has said it's impossible that he could become one. First step to that would be to reverse the recent trend of postseason catastrophes.
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canissaxa
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Post by canissaxa on Mar 17, 2015 15:25:57 GMT -5
If I'm not mistaken, Pomeroy does have some recency weighting, so naturally postseason does carry some additional weight. Nope. Totally wrong about that. Confusing that he temporarily includes an initial ranking to smooth early-season ranking, then phases it out.
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njhoya78
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Post by njhoya78 on Mar 17, 2015 15:29:16 GMT -5
I'm going to go with the assumption that this entire thread will be moot in another sixty hours (give or take).
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