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Post by johnnysnowplow on Nov 19, 2014 18:35:55 GMT -5
Seeing as he was benched, couldn't it be that Thompson is trying to tell us the problem lies with DSR himself (possibly his attitude?) and not with the gameplan or his position? If it was as simple as moving him off the ball, wouldn't he have tried that instead of benching his best player?
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Post by johnnysnowplow on Nov 19, 2014 18:38:55 GMT -5
Also, though his scoring was off in game 1, he did contribute 9 boards and 6 assists (w/ only 1 TO) so it's not as if he was a total no-show in that game.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Nov 19, 2014 18:46:31 GMT -5
What are these "point guard" responsibilities everyone is talking about?
1. Walking the ball up the floor? 2. Defending the opposing point guard? 3. Making the initial pass to start the offense? 4. Vocally organizing his teammates? 5. Creating offense off the dribble drive?
I 100% agree that DSR, as a scorer, is much more of a finisher than a creator. He has sneaky dribble drive moves and when he's playing smart, a nice pull-up floater. But he's at his best playing off the pass, either shooting or a quick drive through a rotating defense. I just don't think the reason he hasn't scored has anything to do with numbers #1-4 of those (unless #4 is him intentionally not shooting so as to get others involved.)
It's #5 that's the issue, I suppose. Except "the solution" to that isn't to necessarily shuffle the lineup. Right now, we're getting our points created off transition, out of the post and by LJ Peak driving (and he's immediately the best penetrator on this team). Due to weak opposition, we haven't often had to stop our fast break to pull out and run the offense; LJ Peak hasn't been consistently stopped and Smith hasn't had to pass it out of the post.
I don't know if our creators are capable of feeding DSR like Markel was. Peak is a good passer on the break but he's pretty committed to the shot on most drives. Smith passed up an easy inside out to DSR early in game one. Will we be able to run the offensive sets that DSR thrived in last year?
I just don't know if we have answers to those questions until the defense actually creates a situation where the easier shot is not there. Add in that DSR has shot poorly -- and over a sample of 13 shots that means nothing -- and it's way too early to tell.
Having Jabril bring it up... eh, either way, I don't care. Campbell's been nice off the bench but I don't think you are suddenly going to give him the ball like Markel had it. And DSR's not dribbling up top and holding onto it. If anything, he's simply deferring a lot and his teammates are rarely making the pass. Is that psychological? I suppose it could be. It could also just be two games where Peak, the break and Smith are too easy.
That said, I wouldn't mind seeing the offense run and DSR get fed a bit in the Robert Morris game just to make sure everyone knows how to do it come Florida.
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Post by michaelgrahmstylie on Nov 19, 2014 19:16:57 GMT -5
Rewatched!? How can I see a replay of the game? HELP! DVR'd, unfortunately. Thanks, anyway! I have to call Comcast for Saturday's game.
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hoyainla
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Post by hoyainla on Nov 19, 2014 19:58:59 GMT -5
DSR was getting killed by their quick PG which made the defense look bad. I think this is the big problem his D not his O. We need someone to be able to stop the opposing PG and I am not sure DSR is quick enough to do it at least when the other team has a quick PG. Tre is not near the offensive player DSR is but when looking at the whole picture we need our D to be good. I think as much as I think he is a star we might be better off with LJ coming off the bench, with Tre starting, DSR at the 2 and Bril at the 3. That will allow LJ to go nuts with the bench players who need scoring punch anyways.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Nov 19, 2014 22:08:50 GMT -5
This game is replaying on FS2 at 10...
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Big Dog
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Post by Big Dog on Nov 19, 2014 22:20:15 GMT -5
DSR was getting killed by their quick PG which made the defense look bad. I think this is the big problem his D not his O. We need someone to be able to stop the opposing PG and I am not sure DSR is quick enough to do it at least when the other team has a quick PG. Tre is not near the offensive player DSR is but when looking at the whole picture we need our D to be good. I think as much as I think he is a star we might be better off with LJ coming off the bench, with Tre starting, DSR at the 2 and Bril at the 3. That will allow LJ to go nuts with the bench players who need scoring punch anyways. I haven't gone back through most of this thread, but III himself made clear that DSR's defense was the problem, as quoted in the Washington Post recap:
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aristides
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Post by aristides on Nov 19, 2014 22:20:32 GMT -5
I thought Tre did a very good job slowing down the point guard for CC. He seems to be just as quick as those little guys from mid-majors, who seem to torch us come NCAA tournament time...so he is a very welcome addition. Like others here, I am also somewhat surprised that DSR, at least in the small sample size, has not looked all that comfortable running the point. I hope it doesn't mess him up....he is a cold blooded scorer, and needs that confidence to be effective. Move DSR to the 2, bring the ball up by committee (White, Jabril, DSR and Tre). Throw Campbell into the fire. Let him take his lumps, it will pay off in February and March. He is easily good enough to hold his own on the court. As of now, DSR is not a good point guard and is now underperforming as a scorer. Need him to get back to what he does well. You place a guy in a new position, you gotta give him more than 2 games to succeed. As Cris Carter would say, "C'mon man!"
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sleepy
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Post by sleepy on Nov 19, 2014 22:35:45 GMT -5
DSR was getting killed by their quick PG which made the defense look bad. I think this is the big problem his D not his O. We need someone to be able to stop the opposing PG and I am not sure DSR is quick enough to do it at least when the other team has a quick PG. Tre is not near the offensive player DSR is but when looking at the whole picture we need our D to be good. I think as much as I think he is a star we might be better off with LJ coming off the bench, with Tre starting, DSR at the 2 and Bril at the 3. That will allow LJ to go nuts with the bench players who need scoring punch anyways. I haven't gone back through most of this thread, but III himself made clear that DSR's defense was the problem, as quoted in the Washington Post recap: I'm not sure how that makes anything clear about the defense. DSR caused at least two of the three turnovers that fueled our six point run right after the half. I think the problem right now is that we don't have enough to complain and argue about so we focusing too much on DSR. I'm sure Florida will provide many more issues for us experts to fix.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Nov 19, 2014 23:00:59 GMT -5
What are these "point guard" responsibilities everyone is talking about? 1. Walking the ball up the floor? 2. Defending the opposing point guard? 3. Making the initial pass to start the offense? 4. Vocally organizing his teammates? 5. Creating offense off the dribble drive? I 100% agree that DSR, as a scorer, is much more of a finisher than a creator. He has sneaky dribble drive moves and when he's playing smart, a nice pull-up floater. But he's at his best playing off the pass, either shooting or a quick drive through a rotating defense. I just don't think the reason he hasn't scored has anything to do with numbers #1-4 of those (unless #4 is him intentionally not shooting so as to get others involved.) It's #5 that's the issue, I suppose. Except "the solution" to that isn't to necessarily shuffle the lineup. Right now, we're getting our points created off transition, out of the post and by LJ Peak driving (and he's immediately the best penetrator on this team). Due to weak opposition, we haven't often had to stop our fast break to pull out and run the offense; LJ Peak hasn't been consistently stopped and Smith hasn't had to pass it out of the post. I don't know if our creators are capable of feeding DSR like Markel was. Peak is a good passer on the break but he's pretty committed to the shot on most drives. Smith passed up an easy inside out to DSR early in game one. Will we be able to run the offensive sets that DSR thrived in last year? I just don't know if we have answers to those questions until the defense actually creates a situation where the easier shot is not there. Add in that DSR has shot poorly -- and over a sample of 13 shots that means nothing -- and it's way too early to tell. Having Jabril bring it up... eh, either way, I don't care. Campbell's been nice off the bench but I don't think you are suddenly going to give him the ball like Markel had it. And DSR's not dribbling up top and holding onto it. If anything, he's simply deferring a lot and his teammates are rarely making the pass. Is that psychological? I suppose it could be. It could also just be two games where Peak, the break and Smith are too easy. That said, I wouldn't mind seeing the offense run and DSR get fed a bit in the Robert Morris game just to make sure everyone knows how to do it come Florida. Good post, SF. Have the point guard experts answered?
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Big Dog
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Post by Big Dog on Nov 19, 2014 23:03:47 GMT -5
I haven't gone back through most of this thread, but III himself made clear that DSR's defense was the problem, as quoted in the Washington Post recap: I'm not sure how that makes anything clear about the defense. DSR caused at least two of the three turnovers that fueled our six point run right after the half. I think the problem right now is that we don't have enough to complain and argue about so we focusing too much on DSR. I'm sure Florida will provide many more issues for us experts to fix. Actually, you're right. Either Ben Standig or somebody else referenced DSR's defense as the culprit, and I must have blended everything together in my head.
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Post by professorhoya on Nov 19, 2014 23:15:19 GMT -5
DSR was getting killed by their quick PG which made the defense look bad. I think this is the big problem his D not his O. We need someone to be able to stop the opposing PG and I am not sure DSR is quick enough to do it at least when the other team has a quick PG. Tre is not near the offensive player DSR is but when looking at the whole picture we need our D to be good. I think as much as I think he is a star we might be better off with LJ coming off the bench, with Tre starting, DSR at the 2 and Bril at the 3. That will allow LJ to go nuts with the bench players who need scoring punch anyways. Yup, it's the D that is the problem vs a skilled quick point guard. We basically have to play zone if DSR is at the point in those situations.
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Post by professorhoya on Nov 19, 2014 23:31:37 GMT -5
It's going to be an adjustment. But I think him being comfortable at the 1 is whats best for both us and him long term so I think giving him more than two games to adjust before talking about scrapping it would be wise. Really I think its more mental, he really doesn't actually have to do THAT much differently than he did last year. I think he just needs to relax and play instead of think so much. He will figure it out, I'm confident. Why is it best Sleepy? I have no problem with letting it play out longer but I've never understood why folks think this is best for the team.. I prefer to have a length and height advantage whenever possible. Having Tre Campbell at point and DSR at shooting guard makes us really small. 6-4 LJ Peak is already undersized at small forward and against more elite teams he will be at a size advantage. You have guys the equivalent of a 6-8 Otto Porter, etc as small forward on some college teams. 6-9 210 Issac Copland lacks the strength to play power forward but if DSR is moved to the 2 then Copeland will be forced to play that position because you have Trawick/Bowen/Peak at small forward. If 6-9 Hopkins is playing center then you basically end up having a size disadvantage at every position. So overall you end up with a much smaller team by moving DSR to the 2. Against OCC lower D1 schools that won't matter but against elite teams having such a small team will hurt us. At the 1 the 6-3 DSR is a bigger point guard, especially with his strength and rebounding skill. It also allows Trawick/Bowen/Peak to play shooting guard, while allowing Copeland get minutes his best position: small forward.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Nov 20, 2014 6:47:50 GMT -5
Why is it best Sleepy? I have no problem with letting it play out longer but I've never understood why folks think this is best for the team.. I prefer to have a length and height advantage whenever possible. Having Tre Campbell at point and DSR at shooting guard makes us really small. 6-4 LJ Peak is already undersized at small forward and against more elite teams he will be at a size advantage. You have guys the equivalent of a 6-8 Otto Porter, etc as small forward on some college teams. 6-9 210 Issac Copland lacks the strength to play power forward but if DSR is moved to the 2 then Copeland will be forced to play that position because you have Trawick/Bowen/Peak at small forward. If 6-9 Hopkins is playing center then you basically end up having a size disadvantage at every position. So overall you end up with a much smaller team by moving DSR to the 2. Against OCC lower D1 schools that won't matter but against elite teams having such a small team will hurt us. At the 1 the 6-3 DSR is a bigger point guard, especially with his strength and rebounding skill. It also allows Trawick/Bowen/Peak to play shooting guard, while allowing Copeland get minutes his best position: small forward. As we have seen time and again, a big set of cojones always trumps height.
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Talos
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Post by Talos on Nov 20, 2014 11:22:09 GMT -5
I was wondering if DSR's benching in the 2nd half also had something to do with him looking visibly frustrated in the first half. At one point during a dead ball, DSR knocked the ball out of the hands of one of their players and I was surprised he didn't get a tech. After watching DSR for three years that seemed very out of character; he always seems calm and under control. The announcers even mentioned his frustration at one point. I wonder if his losing his cool, in addition to having a hard time defending the quick PG, led to him sitting for much of the 2nd half.
Forget who plays PG, we just need DSR to make shots.
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Post by professorhoya on Nov 20, 2014 11:35:55 GMT -5
I prefer to have a length and height advantage whenever possible. Having Tre Campbell at point and DSR at shooting guard makes us really small. 6-4 LJ Peak is already undersized at small forward and against more elite teams he will be at a size advantage. You have guys the equivalent of a 6-8 Otto Porter, etc as small forward on some college teams. 6-9 210 Issac Copland lacks the strength to play power forward but if DSR is moved to the 2 then Copeland will be forced to play that position because you have Trawick/Bowen/Peak at small forward. If 6-9 Hopkins is playing center then you basically end up having a size disadvantage at every position. So overall you end up with a much smaller team by moving DSR to the 2. Against OCC lower D1 schools that won't matter but against elite teams having such a small team will hurt us. At the 1 the 6-3 DSR is a bigger point guard, especially with his strength and rebounding skill. It also allows Trawick/Bowen/Peak to play shooting guard, while allowing Copeland get minutes his best position: small forward. As we have seen time and again, a big set of cojones always trumps height. In theory perhaps but the reality says otherwise. Our most successful teams in the last decade have had lineups such as this: 7-2: Hibbert: (NBA) (above average height) 6-9: Jeff Green (NBA) (slightly above average) 6-8: Dujaun Summers (brief NBA), 6-8 Patrick Ewing (brief NBA) (above average height) 6-3: Jessie Sapp (below average) 6-1: Jonathan Wallas (average) II: 6-11: Henry Sims (NBA) (above average height) 6-8: Nate Lubick (average height) 6-8: Otto Porter (NBA) (above average height) 6-8: Hollis Thompson (NBA) (above average height), 6-8 Greg Whttington (above average height) 6-2: Jason Clark, 6-2 Markel Starks Making oneself intentionally small does not bode well for post season success. Basically this type of line up is at a size disadvantage at very position: 6-9: Mikael Hopkins (below average height at center) 6-9: Issac Copland (below average strength for power forward) 6-4: LJ Peak (below average height for small forward), 6-5 Trawick (average), 6-5 Bowen (average) 6-3: DSR (below average for shooting guard) 6-1: Trey Campbell (average)
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Nov 20, 2014 12:18:31 GMT -5
As we have seen time and again, a big set of cojones always trumps height. In theory perhaps but the reality says otherwise. Our most successful teams in the last decade have had lineups such as this: 7-2: Hibbert: (NBA) (above average height) 6-9: Jeff Green (NBA) (slightly above average) 6-8: Dujaun Summers (brief NBA), 6-8 Patrick Ewing (brief NBA) (above average height) 6-3: Jessie Sapp (below average) 6-1: Jonathan Wallas (average) II: 6-11: Henry Sims (NBA) (above average height) 6-8: Nate Lubick (average height) 6-8: Otto Porter (NBA) (above average height) 6-8: Hollis Thompson (NBA) (above average height), 6-8 Greg Whttington (above average height) 6-2: Jason Clark, 6-2 Markel Starks Making oneself intentionally small does not bode well for post season success. Basically this type of line up is at a size disadvantage at very position: 6-9: Mikael Hopkins (below average height at center) 6-9: Issac Copland (below average strength for power forward) 6-4: LJ Peak (below average height for small forward), 6-5 Trawick (average), 6-5 Bowen (average) 6-3: DSR (below average for shooting guard) 6-1: Trey Campbell (average) Why don't we just play: 6-10: Josh Smith 6-9: Mikael Hopkins 6-6: Aaron Bowen 6-3: DSR D-1: Tre Campbell that's not all that small in fact that's probably the height of an average high major line up. and Heck you could even put White or Copeland and SF and be taller than the average team.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Nov 20, 2014 12:50:05 GMT -5
What are these "point guard" responsibilities everyone is talking about? 1. Walking the ball up the floor? 2. Defending the opposing point guard? 3. Making the initial pass to start the offense? 4. Vocally organizing his teammates? 5. Creating offense off the dribble drive? I 100% agree that DSR, as a scorer, is much more of a finisher than a creator. He has sneaky dribble drive moves and when he's playing smart, a nice pull-up floater. But he's at his best playing off the pass, either shooting or a quick drive through a rotating defense. I just don't think the reason he hasn't scored has anything to do with numbers #1-4 of those (unless #4 is him intentionally not shooting so as to get others involved.) It's #5 that's the issue, I suppose. Except "the solution" to that isn't to necessarily shuffle the lineup. Right now, we're getting our points created off transition, out of the post and by LJ Peak driving (and he's immediately the best penetrator on this team). Due to weak opposition, we haven't often had to stop our fast break to pull out and run the offense; LJ Peak hasn't been consistently stopped and Smith hasn't had to pass it out of the post. I don't know if our creators are capable of feeding DSR like Markel was. Peak is a good passer on the break but he's pretty committed to the shot on most drives. Smith passed up an easy inside out to DSR early in game one. Will we be able to run the offensive sets that DSR thrived in last year? I just don't know if we have answers to those questions until the defense actually creates a situation where the easier shot is not there. Add in that DSR has shot poorly -- and over a sample of 13 shots that means nothing -- and it's way too early to tell. Having Jabril bring it up... eh, either way, I don't care. Campbell's been nice off the bench but I don't think you are suddenly going to give him the ball like Markel had it. And DSR's not dribbling up top and holding onto it. If anything, he's simply deferring a lot and his teammates are rarely making the pass. Is that psychological? I suppose it could be. It could also just be two games where Peak, the break and Smith are too easy. That said, I wouldn't mind seeing the offense run and DSR get fed a bit in the Robert Morris game just to make sure everyone knows how to do it come Florida. JT3 has stated on more than one occasion that he wants DSR to be more of a facilitator this season and I'm not sure it suits his game.. Take a listen to him in the St. Francis articles thread.. I fully acknowledge that the sample is extremely limited right now but I don't get why JT3 would want him to change his role when he's been so successful at being an efficient scorer.. It's not like he was a ball hog.. I think most of us would agree that DSR will never be a high level lead guy however I know most would agree that he can be a high level off the ball guy because we've seen it.. Again I ask why switch up? Even slightly.. I personally feel, especially in the half court that Jabril can take up a good part of the slack left by Markel.. Jabril played the lead role for a big chunk of the 2nd half Tuesday and he did well imo... Whenever possible the staff should allow Tre to get time in the lead role this season because he'll be needed in the future.. Remember after Sapp got up to speed JT3 put him in the lead role and put Wallace at the off guard spot.. We all know how well that worked out.. Now DSR has to get past the fact that the team will not look for him nearly as much as last season due to the presence of Josh and even more so LJ, that in & of itself will be a big adjustment for him.. To me there's no need to shuffle the line-ups.. Jabril, DSR, LJ, Hopkins & Josh can continue to start.. Now the best thing to happen is for DSR to get 18 & 6 over the next 5 or 6 games and with that I'll gladly shut up..
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Post by professorhoya on Nov 20, 2014 13:13:04 GMT -5
In theory perhaps but the reality says otherwise. Our most successful teams in the last decade have had lineups such as this: 7-2: Hibbert: (NBA) (above average height) 6-9: Jeff Green (NBA) (slightly above average) 6-8: Dujaun Summers (brief NBA), 6-8 Patrick Ewing (brief NBA) (above average height) 6-3: Jessie Sapp (below average) 6-1: Jonathan Wallas (average) II: 6-11: Henry Sims (NBA) (above average height) 6-8: Nate Lubick (average height) 6-8: Otto Porter (NBA) (above average height) 6-8: Hollis Thompson (NBA) (above average height), 6-8 Greg Whttington (above average height) 6-2: Jason Clark, 6-2 Markel Starks Making oneself intentionally small does not bode well for post season success. Basically this type of line up is at a size disadvantage at very position: 6-9: Mikael Hopkins (below average height at center) 6-9: Issac Copland (below average strength for power forward) 6-4: LJ Peak (below average height for small forward), 6-5 Trawick (average), 6-5 Bowen (average) 6-3: DSR (below average for shooting guard) 6-1: Trey Campbell (average) Why don't we just play: 6-10: Josh Smith 6-9: Mikael Hopkins 6-6: Aaron Bowen 6-3: DSR D-1: Tre Campbell that's not all that small in fact that's probably the height of an average high major line up. and Heck you could even put White or Copeland and SF and be taller than the average team. Because Josh Smith will probably only give you 20-25 minutes. So Hopkins will have to play center where he will be undersized against the more elite teams. That causes a trickle down effect as now Hopkins vacates power forward and you will have to put a shorter/smaller guy at power forward. Stubbornly forcing DSR exclusively to the 2, limits our size and length potential. You want to have DSR and LJ Peak (undersized 3) on the floor as much as possible because they appear to be our only consistent scorers/outside shooters. Against the more elite teams Peak is undersized at small forward, so ideally you want him as the de facto shooting guard with DSR at the point. Essentially, any lineup where Tre Campbell is getting the majority of the minutes at the point, with DSR getting the majority at the two will be problematic in terms of rebounding and size issues. The least successful postseason unit had 6-1 Wright at Point, 6-2 Jason Clark (albeit with 6-7 wingspan) at shooting guard and 6-3 Austin Freeman at small forward. It was a very small lineup and I think against elite teams with length or during the tournament, the size disadvantage hurt us. Playing at that kind of disadvantage, especially when you are essentially undersized at center and powerforward (when Josh Smith is on the bench) is a recipe for disaster.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2014 13:26:46 GMT -5
Ehhh Peak is 6’5 unless he shrunk… That lineup is definitely bigger than the Louisville lineup that cut down the Nets a few years back
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