prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Aug 15, 2018 9:10:22 GMT -5
Right, and all of you, in front and behind, are more interested in protecting the institution than children which is, to put it mildly, regrettable. Do you personally know any other HoyaTalk member? If so, are they Catholic and agree with your statement?
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hoya9797
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Post by hoya9797 on Aug 15, 2018 9:30:43 GMT -5
Look, either you are in or you are out. You can say all the right things but the fact is that if you still are a member of this church, you are supporting and sustaining an institution that has been committing and covering up these crimes for decades (probably centuries) with people up to the very top involved. This is not an islolated incident. This has been happening all over the world for a long time. By staying in, you allow this to continue. This church is the largest criminal organization in history and all for some idiotic ancient superstition. It’s absolutely insane this can continue.
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Nevada Hoya
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Post by Nevada Hoya on Aug 15, 2018 13:51:41 GMT -5
Some of us prefer not to throw out the baby with the bath water.
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hoya9797
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Post by hoya9797 on Aug 15, 2018 14:02:12 GMT -5
I guess this just shows how effective indoctrination can be. Not only will you believe complete nonsense you will justify and make excuses for some of the most heinous crimes imaginable,
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Nevada Hoya
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Post by Nevada Hoya on Aug 15, 2018 18:27:37 GMT -5
I guess this just shows how effective indoctrination can be. Not only will you believe complete nonsense you will justify and make excuses for some of the most heinous crimes imaginable, Proselytize much??? I assume you are a Georgetown grad, and I further assume you knew it was a Jesuit institution. If that is so, I guess you or your parents were contributing to an arm of the Church. As members of the first church of Christ, we try to obey the complete commandment: Love God and love our neighbors as ourselves. That is the "baby" that we have to preserve.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2018 8:07:31 GMT -5
You know all the crazy-ass alt-right conspiracy theories about Democrats running a pedophilia ring out of a pizza parlor that led to someone actually showing up at that restaurant threatening people with a firearm? Those things never actually happened. But these did: www.ydr.com/story/news/2018/08/14/pa-grand-jury-report-catholic-clergy-sexual-abuse-names-details-catholic-dioceses/948937002/Go ahead, read it. Read every word. The head-in-the-sand reaction from many Catholics is disturbing. If any other institution had a list as long and - frankly - disgusting as this one, everyone would be rightly outraged and would want to tear the whole thing down. I don't know that tearing it all down is the answer, but I'm having a difficult time figuring out what is worth keeping (I am Catholic and went to Catholic schools most of my life - including GU).
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Nevada Hoya
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Post by Nevada Hoya on Aug 16, 2018 11:48:49 GMT -5
First "If anyone causes one of these little ones--those who believe in me--to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea." (Mark 9:42). Then eliminate the "celibacy" vow and create a married clergy. After that consider women being deacons and then priests.
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TC
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Post by TC on Aug 16, 2018 14:12:03 GMT -5
First "If anyone causes one of these little ones--those who believe in me--to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea." (Mark 9:42). Then eliminate the "celibacy" vow and create a married clergy. After that consider women being deacons and then priests. I agree with everything Nevada said, except the Church doesn't seem to be doing any of those things, just like it did nothing about those priests for decades other than shell game a bunch of pedophiles around to different parishes. I don't know how you actually fix this problem any way other than structurally. Meanwhile, when they do care about something, it takes them something like 17 minutes to act.... I'll never get why a long term relationship / marriage is a fireable offense rather than something the Church celebrates.
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hoya9797
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Post by hoya9797 on Aug 16, 2018 16:47:41 GMT -5
You know all the crazy-ass alt-right conspiracy theories about Democrats running a pedophilia ring out of a pizza parlor that led to someone actually showing up at that restaurant threatening people with a firearm? Those things never actually happened. But these did: www.ydr.com/story/news/2018/08/14/pa-grand-jury-report-catholic-clergy-sexual-abuse-names-details-catholic-dioceses/948937002/Go ahead, read it. Read every word. The head-in-the-sand reaction from many Catholics is disturbing. If any other institution had a list as long and - frankly - disgusting as this one, everyone would be rightly outraged and would want to tear the whole thing down. I don't know that tearing it all down is the answer, but I'm having a difficult time figuring out what is worth keeping (I am Catholic and went to Catholic schools most of my life - including GU). The human instinct to rally around and protect the tribe is strong. You’d think that if there was an omniscient god, its one true church would not be subject to the same human failings as every other human invention. Weird, makes one think that the whole god thing may be BS.
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hoya9797
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Post by hoya9797 on Aug 17, 2018 11:30:36 GMT -5
Here’s a sampling of what went on in one small place. We know this isn’t an insolated incident so if this is what happened in Pittsburgh, what happened in other parts of the world?
• Father Edward R. Graff was about to anally rape a child, but the victim ran away before it could happen, even though it meant running “into the street, mostly nude.” • Father Chester Gawronski fondled and masturbated at least 12 different children by saying he was just showing them “how to check for cancer.” (When one of these stories went public in 2002, Bishop Donald Trautman chastised the victim by arguing that he was only 14 when it happened, not 11 like the article said.) • Father William Presley abused three victims, one as young as 13, with “choking, slapping, punching, rape, sodomy, Edited, anal intercourse,” and more. • Father Thomas D. Skotek raped an underage girl, got her pregnant, then paid for her abortion. His Bishop later said, “This is a very difficult time in your life, and I realize how upset you are. I too share your grief.” That letter was addressed to Skotek, not his victim. • Father Edmond Parrakow admitted to molesting “approximately thirty-five male children” because sex with girls was “sinful” and raping boys didn’t violate them. One altar boy said Parrakow told them to go naked under their cassocks during Mass because God didn’t want “man-made clothes” touching their skin during services. Parrakow now works in a shopping mall. • Father Raymond Lukac “married” a victim the moment she turned 18 by forging the head pastor’s signature on a fake marriage certificate. He eventually married her for real, had a child with her (impregnating her when she was 17), then got a divorce. He stayed in the ministry after being taken in by a “benevolent bishop.” • Father Robert Moslener taught middle school kids how to give Editeds by telling them Mary had to “bite off the cord” and “lick” Jesus clean when he was born. • Father Augustine Giella abused five girls in the same family. Among other things, he collected their urine, public hair, and menstrual blood in a device attached to his toilet… then he ingested some of it. All of this happened after he worked at a Catholic high school and had been accused of telling a student he wanted to watch her go to the bathroom. • Father Arthur Long tried having sex with a 17-year-old at a high school he worked at by saying God wanted them to express love for each other that way. When she said God would punish them, he told her, “there is no Hell.” • Father George Zirwas was part of a predatory priest “ring” that “shared intelligence” on victims and exchanged them with each other. They “manufactured child pornography” on church property, using “whips, violence and sadism in raping their victims.” • Father Richard Zula asked three altar boys to “pose like statues” and tried to tie them up with rope. Zula also used whips and leather straps on a victim after tying up the person’s hands. • Father Robert N. Caparelli raped several boys as young as 10. He was eventually put in prison, where it was discovered he “had been HIV-positive for years.” • Monsignor Thomas J. Benestad forced a nine-year-old boy to give him a Edited, then washed his mouth out with holy water “to purify him.” • Reverend David Connell served a high school boy juice. The boy later woke up with no memory of what happened, but there was “bleeding from his rectum.” • Reverend Edward George Ganster once dragged a child across a room by his underwear and beat him with a metal cross. He eventually quit the priesthood… but not before receiving a letter of recommendation for his new job… at Walt Disney World. • Father Richard J. Guiliani began abusing one girl when she was 14, forcing her to masturbate him and blow him. When she turned 18, he visited her and asked for sex and her hand in marriage. (She declined both.) • Reverend Henry Paul is the reason one little girl told her mother she knew how to “French kiss.” • Reverend Gerald Royer once molested a 12-year-old boy. The boy’s friend didn’t believe it… until, hidden in a closet, he witnessed the abuse himself. The victim, now 83, fought in wars, yet because of what Royer did, he could never hug or kiss his own children, who were boys. He can’t shake hands with men to this day. He can’t even see male doctors or dentists. • Reverend Michael G. Barletta was known to take pictures in a boys’ locker room and maintained a book of “crotch shots.” • Father Robert E. Hannon had several male victims, but his diocese dismissed allegations from one girl after Hannon denied it. His argument? He wouldn’t have done it because girls “do not have a Edited.” • Father Gerard Krebs, a teacher at a Catholic high school, was asked for advice by a student whose girlfriend was pregnant. Krebs conducted a prostate exam to see if the boy was “capable of impregnating a woman.” Another victim said Krebs guided him through “sexual rituals” to “prove my faith and the fact that I was not a homosexual.” • Monsignor Daniel Martin and other priests in the seminary had a “fierce competition,” one victim said, to molest boys who didn’t have fathers or had bad relationships with them. • Brother Edmundus Murphy encouraged a victim to join their Catholic school’s wrestling team and taught him different moves, naked, because that’s what “the ancient Greeks and Romans did.” During those practices, Murphy sodomized the victim. • Father Gregory Flohr took a victim into the confessional and tied him up with rope. When the victim screamed, Flohr shut him up by shoving his Edited in the victim’s mouth. When the victim would accept it, Flohr sodomized him with a crucifix and called him a “bad boy.” • Father Charles B. Guth fondled a boy and stuck his finger up the child’s ass. Then he said to the boy that if their secret ever got out, the child and his mother would both burn in hell. Then he gave the boy a nickel. • Father Francis Lesniak told a victim that if he confessed his sins and wasn’t too bad, he’d “get to suck on a strawberry lollipop or popsicle.” After these confessions, which happened multiple times, Lesniak would take his Edited out and say it was a strawberry lollipop.
• Father Henry J. Marcinek is the reason one victim said as an adult, “I don’t remember the last time I laughed.” That same victim later confessed that “I peed in [Marcinek’s] mouth, because he used to cum in mine” and that he felt like he was “fricking prostituting himself” at the age of 12 or 13. • Father Roger J. Trott anally raped a 21-year-old man with Down Syndrome, after which the victim was reportedly hospitalized for “surgery for a blockage of the lower bowel.” • Reverend Francis A. Bach had so many victims, then when his diocese confronted him about a particular allegation, he said he didn’t remember it, but responded, “With my history, anything is possible.” • Reverend James Beeman raped a seven-year-old in the hospital just after she had “had her tonsils removed.” He raped her again when she was 19 and pregnant. • Reverend George Koychick inappropriately touched several little girls. When confronted about it by his diocese, he admitted it, adding, “it was when I was going through a touchy/feely time in my life.” • Reverend Guy Marsico admitted to molesting several boys and confessing his sins to another priest. The advice was never to call police or turn himself in. Instead, he was told to “Pray about it and try to get away from it.” Then, when it happened again, he’d receive the same advice. • Reverend Patrick Shannon molested a 16-year-old boy during a camping trip. When the boy resisted, Shannon replied, “Sometime [sic] we say no when we really mean yes.” • Reverend Timothy Sperber sexually abused a girl no older than 10. When she told the principal of their Catholic school that Sperber “touched her in weird ways,” the principal called her a “demon-child” for making those “terrible accusations.” • Reverend Frederick Vaughn abused an 11-year-old girl, wrestling with her on the floor at her family’s home when her father wasn’t around. One time, when she resisted, he said, “I like a fighter.” • Reverend Leo Burchianti once entered a bathroom with an underage boy and put his hands down the boy’s shorts. When the boy told Burchianti to stop tickling him, the response was, “I’m not trying to tickle you, I’m trying to grab for something.” • Reverend Anthony J. Cipolla took a 9-year-old boy to his rectory bedroom, told the child to take off his clothes, then squeezed his Edited a total of 70 times before sticking a finger into his rectum. Later, even though his mother wanted to file criminal charges, she dropped them because “she was threatened and harassed by church officials” and told that she should “let the church handle it.” • Reverend David F. Dzermejko fondled a young boy on a Ferris wheel during a church festival. The boy couldn’t get off the ride because Dzermejko told the operator “to keep the ride going three times longer than it should have.”
• Reverend Bernard J. Kaczmarczyk went into the shower with a 12-year-old boy under the pretext that he needed to make sure the child was “showering properly.” • Reverend Anujit Kumar kissed an underage girl with his tongue and sucked her lips. When Church officials asked him about it, he was he was just trying to “recruit her for the convent.” • [Redacted] molested a child for years. When the victim turned 15 or 16, he asked the priest to stop and threatened to go public with what had happened. The priest “grabbed him by the throat and threatened to kill him if he told anyone.” He also threatened to tell the victim’s parents he was gay. • Monsignor Raymond T. Schultz masturbated in front of a student at their Catholic school. Afterwards, Schultz would give the kid a handkerchief to wipe the semen off his face. To this day, the victim said, he goes from “sad to angry” whenever he sees a white handkerchief. • Father Robert E. Spangenberg molested an underage boy several times. He also paid the victim a “finder’s fee” if he could find other young “chickens” for Spangenberg to have sex with. • Reverend Paul G. Spisak supposedly took pictures with underage boys in which their swim trunks were down to their ankles. His staff says they saw the pictures… until they disappeared. Spisak may have destroyed the images. A couple of years ago, however, he was arrested for a camera he placed in a mall bathroom. At first he denied it. Then he said he was sick, ran inside a stall, and flushed the memory card down the toilet. • Reverend Anthony P. Conmy molested a 10-year-old girl after dropping her friend off at home. He grabbed her wrists, put his hand over her mouth, put his knee in her stomach to hold her down, then said he wouldn’t kill her if she “would lie quietly.” • Reverend P. Lawrence Homer told a 14-year-old girl she had the body of an 18-year-old woman. He also commented on her “sex hair.”
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hoya9797
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Post by hoya9797 on Aug 17, 2018 11:33:20 GMT -5
And, here’s the “playbook” the bishops used to cover all this up:
1. Use euphemisms. (“Never say “rape”; say “inappropriate contact” or “boundary issues.”)
2. Don’t investigate with trained personnel. (Instead, let clergy members ask the victims “inadequate” questions before judging their own colleagues.)
3. Evaluate priests at church-run “treatment centers.”
4. Never say why a priest was removed. (Just say he’s on “sick leave” or something.)
5. Keep providing priests with living expenses regardless of the allegations.
6. Transfer the priests if his crime becomes public knowledge. (Send him to a place where “no one will know he is a child abuser.”)
7. Don’t tell the police. (Keep it “in house.”)
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Aug 17, 2018 22:48:24 GMT -5
I'm an atheist but was raised as a (lapsed) Catholic. I, literally, couldn't read through all of hoya9797's bullet points. I was too disgusted. Keep in mind, the scope of this is what they found not what is actually happening. I don't know what the remedy is but, outside of clearing house or tearing it down, I don't know what the solution is. This is, and has been, a rampant and tacitly approved pattern of behavior and it cannot continue. People entrust their children to this particular institution in the hopes of providing structure and morality and, as such, it makes these kids that much more vulnerable. Their parents send them and put their faith in the clergy and the children know that. It makes them the most available and vulnerable victims possible which makes the predatory behavior of the clergy that much more egregious because they know that they have the faith of the parents and the cover of the Church as a whole to turn a blind eye or move them or hide them or, at the least, not prosecute or excommunicate them. I'm not opposed to Catholic teachings on morality or even on faith in general but, at this point, it comes off as lacking self-awareness at best and the height of hubris at worst for the Church to be assuming moral superiority to others at this point. I realize that I'm predisposed to taking that last part to an extreme as an atheist but I'd be interested in the responses of practicing Catholics as to what you may think and how you think it best to proceed. I ask that in all sincerity as I'm a bit on an island as an atheist in my (very proudly, pseudo-Irish) mostly Catholic family.
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Aug 18, 2018 19:32:32 GMT -5
These revelations do not, in any way, reduce my faith as a Catholic. My faith is in God and in His church, not men. His Church is Him living among us, not the Pope, cardinals, bishops or priests. Granted, I hope those in leadership positions in my church live their faith and many have failed to do so and I feel extreme shame as a Catholic.
In some ways it is not surprising. The 60's ushered in the period of rejection of all authority, including that of God. In the Catholic Church it ushered in a period of picking and choosing what to believe rather than attempting to follow all the beliefs of the Church. The damn-the-authority era made its way into many of our seminaries where sexual depravity became a way of life in the seminaries themselves. Those ordained in that era moved on to become our priests and bishops so why should anyone be surprised at what happened? I am surprised only at the magnitude of it.
I will continue to attempt to live my faith; and, to pick myself up and ask for forgiveness when I fail. I ask God's blessings on all the victims and his forgiveness to all the priests who ask for it.
I have been blessed to have had good priests and brothers ministering to me, wherever life has taken me, and I hope they are there for me during my remaining (few) months or years.
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hoya9797
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Post by hoya9797 on Aug 19, 2018 8:59:26 GMT -5
Post edited--Admin
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TC
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Post by TC on Aug 19, 2018 9:12:12 GMT -5
In some ways it is not surprising. The 60's ushered in the period of rejection of all authority, including that of God. In the Catholic Church it ushered in a period of picking and choosing what to believe rather than attempting to follow all the beliefs of the Church. The damn-the-authority era made its way into many of our seminaries where sexual depravity became a way of life in the seminaries themselves. Those ordained in that era moved on to become our priests and bishops so why should anyone be surprised at what happened? I am surprised only at the magnitude of it. "I blame the hippies!" www.ydr.com/story/news/2018/08/14/pa-grand-jury-report-catholic-clergy-sexual-abuse-names-details-catholic-dioceses/948937002/Look through the timelines here, especially at the start dates or ordination dates. The 1930's, 1940's and 1950's are very well represented.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Aug 19, 2018 9:23:57 GMT -5
Your god is more evil than the men who committed these crimes. What kind of idiot would have faith in this monster? Okay. We get it. You hate religion and feel the need to belittle believers. Well done.
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TC
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Post by TC on Aug 19, 2018 9:28:54 GMT -5
Elvado mad someone taking his shtick.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Aug 19, 2018 10:44:26 GMT -5
Elvado mad someone taking his shtick. As long as I am credited, it is all good...
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Aug 19, 2018 11:19:10 GMT -5
I receive emails from President Garvey as I am also an alum and donor to CUA. Earlier, CUA also stripped Cardinal McCarrick of his honorary degree from CUA. It was the first time CUA has done this. Not a summer for CUA. www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2018/07/31/catholic-university-of-america-strips-theodore-mccarrick-of-honorary-degree/Letter on the Pennsylvania Grand Jury Report To the Catholic University Community, There are times when words fail. This is one of those times. What I read in the Pennsylvania grand jury report released this week is distressing beyond words. The report, which summarized the findings of an 18-month investigation into allegations of sexual abuse by clergy in Pennsylvania, revealed terrible acts carried out by priests of the Catholic Church abusing young and trusting children. The investigation reported that some 1,000 children were abused during the period covered by the investigation. According to Pennsylvania’s Attorney General, more survivors continue to contact his office. I pray that these outrages were not perpetrated in other states. But I am concerned that further inquiries will uncover similar cases. As President of The Catholic University of America, I have taken great pride in the fact that we are the bishops’ university, the national university of the Catholic Church. Despite what I read this week, I continue to do so. That said, I have to admit that I am at a loss to understand how such unspeakable evil has been allowed to fester at the heart of the Church. It appears clear that some bishops shuffled priests around and devoted their energies to managing the Church’s image, rather than caring first for the safety of their flocks. Meanwhile faithful Catholics have left the Church, and her teaching has lost authority in our culture. The report covers a long period of time and the activities of many clerics, including Cardinal Donald Wuerl when he was bishop of Pittsburgh from 1988-2006. I will not address in detail the particulars concerning Cardinal Wuerl, now archbishop of Washington and, by virtue of that office, our chancellor. The grand jury report includes a number of cases where he refused to return priests to parishes after they were accused of abuse. But the thrust of the report against Pennsylvania’s bishops is that abuse occurred over many years, and was in many instances facilitated, ignored, or covered up - a gross breach of trust with every innocent victim and with the faithful. About 800 years ago, in a dusty church on the edge of Assisi, St. Francis heard the command to “rebuild my Church, which is in ruins.” I don’t know that the Church is in ruins, but the present situation feels more like it than anything I have experienced. The question in the hearts of all the faithful, including our priests and bishops, is what to do now. Let there be no misunderstanding. There need to be stronger reporting protocols and firmer discipline. But procedures will not substitute for repentance and spiritual renewal. There is a way forward. I want to emphasize to all of you—students, parents, alumni—the responsibility the laity have, now more than ever, to serve the Church. This is not a problem the bishops can solve on their own. Though most of them are good and holy men, the actions detailed in the grand jury report have damaged the reputations of all. They will need our help and our insistence on accountability and high standards. We could take as a model St. Catherine of Siena, a doctor of the Church who famously wrote to Pope Gregory XI, demanding that he “intervene to eliminate the stink of the ministers of the Holy Church; pull out the stinking flowers and plant scented plants, virtuous men who fear God.” The laity must step forward with prayer, energy, and resolve. We need the laity’s perspective, expertise, judgment, and prayer—and the pressure that comes from having been burned more than once. We need policies and structures that make it hard to evade responsibility for such crimes, and we must examine carefully the processes by which we recruit, prepare, nourish, and monitor the men who present themselves as candidates for the priesthood. For those who are students here at Catholic University, the Church is experiencing a moment of real crisis. I encourage you to prepare yourselves to take on key roles in rebuilding Christ’s Church. Pray fervently for survivors. And pray for religious vocations; encourage men and women to consider such vocations as part of the Church’s renewal, joining the many virtuous clergy who continue to serve. And decide how you can best serve. As president, I am considering with the Board of Trustees and with my staff how best to put our resources at the service of the Church. I commit myself and this University to the process of renewal. We cannot rule out any response or corrective measure. I look forward to discussing particulars with the entire University community in the months to come. Before I close, I want to continue to encourage any survivors of abuse to contact your home diocese or the Archdiocese of Washington’s Office of Child and Youth Protection, which offers resources and confidential support to any who have suffered from abuse and who seek help: Phone: 301-853-5328 Web: adw.org/about-us/policies-and-resources/child-protectionAs members of the laity, and also as priests and religious, we are all critical members of the Church and we are responsible for the faith. Pray for the strength and grace to take on this great challenge. Sincerely, John Garvey President The Catholic University of America 620 Michigan Ave., N.E., Washington, DC 20064 Forward this email to a friend
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hoya9797
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Post by hoya9797 on Aug 19, 2018 12:11:26 GMT -5
Lots of requests for prayers in that letter which is the surest way to see that nothing useful is done.
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