MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Mar 22, 2014 22:10:26 GMT -5
I love DSR also but it isn't close between him an AFree. The soph Austin would have avg 30pt a game on this team. Austin's soph year he had DSummer and GMonroe on his team. Remember DSummer's attitude during that season. If Austin would have been on a team with just Chris as a only other option {which is equivalent to DSR only having Kel} he would have scored at will. I believe some of you have forgotten how good of a scorer AFree was before the diabetes........... Look, Freeman is one of my op fave players of the III era but this is some revisionist bs to suggest Freeman would have been putting up 30 on this team as a soph. Where was that when the Hoyas really needed it during Freeman's actual sophmore season, the season in which the Hoyas missed out on the NCAA tourney? Don't give me that nonsense that Freeman was taking a backseast to Summers and Monroe, not during a season in which the Hoyas had a disappointing season. If Free was capable of exploding for buckets at that point he would have regardless of Summers and FRESHMAN Greg Monroe. Freeman didn't become Austin Powers until his junior year, and that season he had three other teammates averaging double figures so it wasn't as if defenses could hone on him and neglect most of his teammates like what has occurred to DSR during this current season.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Mar 22, 2014 22:26:49 GMT -5
Not sure I follow your logic. If anything, the fact that there is only one other scoring option on the team has allowed teams to key in on just the two of them, and makes their ability to score that much more impressive. I disagree. Your logic is true but JTIII is an inside out coach at heart. Austin didn't become the 1 option until the Marquette game his junior year. DaJuan took the majority of the shots and Austin was also behind Greg on the list of scoring options. This year DSR and Kel were option 1 and 1a in whatever order. There isn't one offensive skill that DSR does better that AFree. He was the better athlete, he shot better, he dribbled better, and he scored over and through defenders. DSR is crafty and he can score but I still say it isn't close...... WTF? Freeman couldn't dribble successfully to the basket on a regular basis until his junior season. I was waiting that for two whole years with him. DSR was doing that on a regular basis since his first season. DSR's midrange game is way above Free's and more reliable. DSR is a better rebounder. May not be saying much but DSR is a better defender too (Freeman was pretty bad on that front). DSR is a better passer. DSR is just as good at finishing in the paint. But I'll grant you Austin was the better athlete. Perhaps he was the better overall ballhandler but even then I'm thinking more of Freeman as an upperclassmen compared to DSR as a sophmore. And your point about III being an inside out coach and Summers hogging the shots is bull. III's teams have always relied more on outside shooting than pounding it inside, even with guys like Roy and Greg on his team. If you meant inside out to stand for throwing the ball inside in order for the big men to throw it back out so guys could take three pointers then you got a point. Otherwise you're making stuff up. Not that Summers was trying to score inside anyway; he was most comfortable taking jumpers. It's a moot point regardless because in III's system back in those years it wasn't as if the main scorers took a whole lot more shots than the third or fourth leading scotrers.
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hoyainspirit
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Post by hoyainspirit on Mar 22, 2014 22:51:20 GMT -5
Freeman was a much better finisher at the rim than is DSR at this stage, though.
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hoyazeke
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Post by hoyazeke on Mar 23, 2014 9:38:55 GMT -5
I disagree. Your logic is true but JTIII is an inside out coach at heart. Austin didn't become the 1 option until the Marquette game his junior year. DaJuan took the majority of the shots and Austin was also behind Greg on the list of scoring options. This year DSR and Kel were option 1 and 1a in whatever order. There isn't one offensive skill that DSR does better that AFree. He was the better athlete, he shot better, he dribbled better, and he scored over and through defenders. DSR is crafty and he can score but I still say it isn't close...... WTF? Freeman couldn't dribble successfully to the basket on a regular basis until his junior season. I was waiting that for two whole years with him. DSR was doing that on a regular basis since his first season. DSR's midrange game is way above Free's and more reliable. DSR is a better rebounder. May not be saying much but DSR is a better defender too (Freeman was pretty bad on that front). DSR is a better passer. DSR is just as good at finishing in the paint. But I'll grant you Austin was the better athlete. Perhaps he was the better overall ballhandler but even then I'm thinking more of Freeman as an upperclassmen compared to DSR as a sophmore. And your point about III being an inside out coach and Summers hogging the shots is bull. III's teams have always relied more on outside shooting than pounding it inside, even with guys like Roy and Greg on his team. If you meant inside out to stand for throwing the ball inside in order for the big men to throw it back out so guys could take three pointers then you got a point. Otherwise you're making stuff up. Not that Summers was trying to score inside anyway; he was most comfortable taking jumpers. It's a moot point regardless because in III's system back in those years it wasn't as if the main scorers took a whole lot more shots than the third or fourth leading scotrers. We'll have to agree to disagree. So are you telling me that you truly believe that DSR's stat would have been equal or better if Whitt were on the team this year? So in you mind falling down in the pecking order would have no effect on DSR's numbers? Or do you think that DSR is the Alpha male that would run the show regardless? I'll have to assume that all you have ever done is watch basketball if that's what you are saying.
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bmartin
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Post by bmartin on Mar 23, 2014 10:46:26 GMT -5
His ppg might be lower but his offensive efficiency would be higher. We are not talking just about total shots or total points. DSR has had to work harder than Freeman ever did, because he has to create opportunities against defenses stacked against him. If he didn't have to do that, he might have fewer shots, but a higher percentage of his shots would be open shots instead of the difficult contested shots in traffic that he gets now and converts at an incredibly high rate.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Mar 23, 2014 11:38:03 GMT -5
In regards to Whit being on the team:
* I think DSR would have been a better offensive option than Whit, who only really was an efficient scorer when he was hot from three. Maybe he would have gotten there, but DSR is already there. * I think the player who would have "lost" the most shots AND benefitted the most from not having to force shots is Markel, who definitely had that role on this team. * I don't think Whit's shots would have come much from DSR at all.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Mar 23, 2014 12:17:16 GMT -5
WTF? Freeman couldn't dribble successfully to the basket on a regular basis until his junior season. I was waiting that for two whole years with him. DSR was doing that on a regular basis since his first season. DSR's midrange game is way above Free's and more reliable. DSR is a better rebounder. May not be saying much but DSR is a better defender too (Freeman was pretty bad on that front). DSR is a better passer. DSR is just as good at finishing in the paint. But I'll grant you Austin was the better athlete. Perhaps he was the better overall ballhandler but even then I'm thinking more of Freeman as an upperclassmen compared to DSR as a sophmore. And your point about III being an inside out coach and Summers hogging the shots is bull. III's teams have always relied more on outside shooting than pounding it inside, even with guys like Roy and Greg on his team. If you meant inside out to stand for throwing the ball inside in order for the big men to throw it back out so guys could take three pointers then you got a point. Otherwise you're making stuff up. Not that Summers was trying to score inside anyway; he was most comfortable taking jumpers. It's a moot point regardless because in III's system back in those years it wasn't as if the main scorers took a whole lot more shots than the third or fourth leading scotrers. We'll have to agree to disagree. So are you telling me that you truly believe that DSR's stat would have been equal or better if Whitt were on the team this year? So in you mind falling down in the pecking order would have no effect on DSR's numbers? Or do you think that DSR is the Alpha male that would run the show regardless? I'll have to assume that all you have ever done is watch basketball if that's what you are saying. Are you telling me that you truly believe Freeman's efficiency would be as good as DSR's if he was the primary guy to stop as DSR was for most of this season? And by the way if this sophmore DSR was on that Hoya team in which Monroe was a freshman, I'm guessing the Hoyas would have gone dancing. Why? Because DSR has been willing and able to take over games on the offensive end when his team needed it. That includes his freshmen year when he was behind guys like Otto and Markel but still stepped up in victories in which he was the leading or second leading scorer. Freeman and Wright weren't doing that as much as needed when they were underclassmen (particularly in their second year). Some of that blame goes to the way III's offense was structured back then I suppose. III now allows a more loose, open, go-one-on-one offensive approach that gives more freedom to Starks and DSR. Some of the blame falls on Freeman and Wright who despite their McDAA credentials didn't seem ready to take over when the team needed wins.
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hoyazeke
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Post by hoyazeke on Mar 23, 2014 12:19:47 GMT -5
That is not how I have ever seen it work out with alpha males. Just look at KDurant. His numbers all around go down when Westbrook is in the lineup. Why is that? I'll tell you why. Everyone in the world thinks KD is the better player except for Westbrook. In his mind he is the equal of the two players so he only concedes to KD when he wants to. So KD doesn't get his maximum potential until Westbrook is hurt or out of the game. Kind of like what happened with GTown last year. There has to be a pecking order on the court or it won't work out. Just look at Miami. The Heat won in year2 because DWade ceded to Bron. In year1 there was obvious tension over the pecking order. My point is I don't believe Whitt cedes to anyone on this years team. Which affects all of DSR's numbers. IMO
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hoyazeke
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Post by hoyazeke on Mar 23, 2014 12:32:00 GMT -5
We'll have to agree to disagree. So are you telling me that you truly believe that DSR's stat would have been equal or better if Whitt were on the team this year? So in you mind falling down in the pecking order would have no effect on DSR's numbers? Or do you think that DSR is the Alpha male that would run the show regardless? I'll have to assume that all you have ever done is watch basketball if that's what you are saying. Are you telling me that you truly believe Freeman's efficiency would be as good as DSR's if he was the primary guy to stop as DSR was for most of this season? And by the way if this sophmore DSR was on that Hoya team in which Monroe was a freshman, I'm guessing the Hoyas would have gone dancing. Why? Because DSR has been willing and able to take over games on the offensive end when his team needed it. That includes his freshmen year when he was behind guys like Otto and Markel but still stepped up in victories in which he was the leading or second leading scorer. Freeman and Wright weren't doing that as underclassmen. Some of that blame goes to the way III's offense was structured back then I suppose. III now allows a more loose, open, go-one-on-one offensive approach that gives more freedom to Starks and DSR. Some of the blame goes to Freeman and Wright who despite their McDAA credentials didn't seem ready to take over when the team needed wins. He would have been able to take over games with DaJuan on the team? I don't think so. I also believe that III did what he had to do this year to have a chance to win. III is a Princeton grad, Stevie Wonder could see that this team's only chance of winning was through the guards. When Josh was active and on the court he was feed quite often down low. I just feel like I must be just remembering junior year AFree. Or you guys are remembering post diabetes AFree. But I did research that AFree was our second leading scorer off the 4th amount of shots his soph year. His efficiency numbers were below DSRs but I believe that is also affected by your pecking order on offense.......
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Mar 23, 2014 12:35:36 GMT -5
Why wasn't Free an alpha male? He had a better resume coming out of high school than Summers? There was no rule set in stone that Freeman had to take a backseat to Summers (one year ahead of him) and Monroe (one year behind him). Especially not when the team went into a tailspin. It is not being selfish or stepping on toes when you do things to help your team win, and if that meant Free needed to drive more and score more so be it. That Hoya team of that season was one of the youngest teams in the nation so it wasn't as if Freeman was deferring to a slew of upperclassmen.
Let me propose this question. Considering Freeman was a top ten to top fifteen recruit and DSR was around a top fifty recruit, don't you think there should have been a greater gap in the level of performance between them their first two seasons?
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Mar 23, 2014 12:38:53 GMT -5
Are you telling me that you truly believe Freeman's efficiency would be as good as DSR's if he was the primary guy to stop as DSR was for most of this season? And by the way if this sophmore DSR was on that Hoya team in which Monroe was a freshman, I'm guessing the Hoyas would have gone dancing. Why? Because DSR has been willing and able to take over games on the offensive end when his team needed it. That includes his freshmen year when he was behind guys like Otto and Markel but still stepped up in victories in which he was the leading or second leading scorer. Freeman and Wright weren't doing that as underclassmen. Some of that blame goes to the way III's offense was structured back then I suppose. III now allows a more loose, open, go-one-on-one offensive approach that gives more freedom to Starks and DSR. Some of the blame goes to Freeman and Wright who despite their McDAA credentials didn't seem ready to take over when the team needed wins. He would have been able to take over games with DaJuan on the team? I don't think so. Summers may have taken bad shots but he wasn't the ballhog diva that you are trying to make him out to be.
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hoyazeke
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Post by hoyazeke on Mar 23, 2014 13:35:14 GMT -5
[quote author=" MCIGuy" source="/post/586426/thread" timestamp="1395596136 "]Why wasn't Free an alpha male? He had a better resume coming out of high school than Summers? There was no rule set in stone that Freeman had to take a backseat to Summers (one year ahead of him) and Monroe (one year behind him). Especially not when the team went into a tailspin. It is not being selfish or stepping on toes when you do things to help your team win, and if that meant Free needed to drive more and score more so be it. That Hoya team of that season was one of the youngest teams in the nation so it wasn't as if Freeman was deferring to a slew of upperclassmen. Let me propose this question. Considering Freeman was a top ten to top fifteen recruit and DSR was around a top fifty recruit, don't you think there should have been a greater gap in the level of performance between them their first two seasons? [/quote] MCI that is not how it works. It goes back way beyond fresh/soph year of college. Either you are or your aren't a alpha. As in my prior examples, KD, LeBron, GMonroe, are not alpha males. DWade, Westbrook, Whitt are. Here's a prime example. AI is an alpha male. He stepped in fresh year and was the big dog on the court even when Otello should have still been. I followed that year closely because I'm the same age as AI and I played against him in HS. Plus I was born a GTown fan. Look we are splitting hairs here. My real point was I don't think that it is cut and dry that DSRs season makes him our best soph in IIIs era. Maybe I went extreme with the "it isn't even close" remark.............I'll call uncle and wave the white flag..................
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bmartin
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Post by bmartin on Mar 23, 2014 13:47:11 GMT -5
In 2009, Summers did not have the ball to hog if he wanted to. Chris Wright had the ball. Summers got the ball when Wright couldn't drive, Monroe couldn't drive, and Freeman wasn't open. DaJuan had some struggles that year and played part of the league season with an injury, but he actually put up his best games against top competition.
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eagle54
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Post by eagle54 on Mar 25, 2014 1:24:30 GMT -5
Balla = eagle54, maybe. Balla = blue eagle, definitely not. DSR > AFree, probably. DSR > dFish or SKerr, let's see. This board can continue to speak to itself but until you listen to reason and actually respond to what someone posts then what is the point of this. So FF can post 8,000 meaningless messages and feel he's a bigger hoya fan than someone else. I love this school as much as anyone and will continue to follow this team regardless of what this board wants to post. I only started posting this season due to the frustration with the way this team performed and after many years of disappointment. I apologize for insulting DSR. For me I think I react to the hype he's given (i.e., this post string about his future NBA career) than what he actually is. I will continue to say that I don't think he's an elite level talent and we can all have our opinions. I'll love to be proven wrong. For the person who said the media wasn't calling this one of the best backcourts in country I can point you back to several broadcasts where that was mentioned - many of which I may still have DVR'd at home. Again if you want to ignore what is actually said that is fine but why have this board? As far as being an NBA guard, if he was that good at his size he would carry this team to more than a second round NIT performance. Look back to the teams AI joined which were terribel and what he added. AI had elite talent as an undersize guard. When I mention other guards that played here in more recent times, Austin Freeman is one that certainly comes to mind and was certainly a better NBA size than DSR. Not attacking or hating him just the reality. We need to stop drinking the Kool-Aid and start looking around at the landscape that exists. I want this team to succeed as much as anyone but get continually frustrated at the performance
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Mar 25, 2014 6:57:46 GMT -5
Ummm, Allen Iverson played with four future NBA players in his front court his first year.
His second year, he played with three NBA players in his frontcourt and a backcourt mate who probably should have been in the NBA if things had gone differently. Certainly, an elite college level guard, if nothing else.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2014 8:15:45 GMT -5
For Eagle54
Posters were critical of you for this statement..."I'm a big Starks and Trawick fan for different reasons on each and I just don't get the fascination with DSR."
Are you claiming that Trawick is better than DSR??? I like Jabril's intensity, but he is not much of an offensive threat. Furthermore, while he could be an excellent defender, he just can't stay out of foul trouble which happens every game. What is worse, many of those fouls are silly fouls. While I agree with you that DSR is not an NBA player, he is an excellent college player. He rebounds, he penetrates, and he scores (something that Jabril cannot yet do). DSR will be one of the best players in the league next year and certainly the best player on the Hoyas. And THAT is the fascination with DSR.
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