MCIGuy
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by MCIGuy on Feb 18, 2014 13:23:48 GMT -5
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TBird41
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
"Roy! I Love All 7'2" of you Roy!"
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Post by TBird41 on Feb 18, 2014 13:35:13 GMT -5
A cursory search found these games where the Hoyas made up a double digit deficit in the second half since 2008-09: 2008-09: @syracuse--Hoyas came back from 16 down with 8 minutes remaining to force OT. espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=2904501832011-12: Marquette--Hoyas came back from 17 down with 13 minutes remaining to win. espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=320040046There are also numerous examples of coming back from 7-9 points down with under 3 minutes to go (the UConn game last year, for example). Additionally, there weren't exactly a lot of games where the Hoyas were down big in the second half. Most games they lose are relatively close games, so there's a sample size issue to go along with your confirmation bias.
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MCIGuy
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by MCIGuy on Feb 18, 2014 13:39:49 GMT -5
DFW Hoya is correct. The only way this team gets into the NCAA Tournament is to win the Big East Tournament, and that is not realistic to expect this team that has such limited talent to win 3 or 4 games in a row. Heck, we still need to win one game to be eligible for the NIT. Considering that we are 0-5 on the year against our last 5 opponents, getting one win out of our last 5 will not be easy for this year's team. As embarrassing as that is to state, that is where this team is at in 2014. Unless this team completely collapses down the stretch, 5 more wins - especially if one of those is against 'Nova or Creighton - gets this team in easy. This game in no way shape or form makes winning the BET the only way the Hoyas get in. Looking at our resume, it's kinda crazy to even think that at this point. This. Going into the St. John's matchup I felt the Hoyas could afford to lose two more games and still make the NCAAs. The problem? I figured one of those losses would come immediately against St. John's which meant the Hoyas would only have room for one more loss in the final five contests.
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MCIGuy
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Anyone here? What am I supposed to update?
Posts: 9,426
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Post by MCIGuy on Feb 18, 2014 13:41:54 GMT -5
A cursory search found these games where the Hoyas made up a double digit deficit in the second half since 2008-09: 2008-09: @syracuse--Hoyas came back from 16 down with 8 minutes remaining to force OT. espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=2904501832011-12: Marquette--Hoyas came back from 17 down with 13 minutes remaining to win. espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=320040046There are also numerous examples of coming back from 7-9 points down with under 3 minutes to go (the UConn game last year, for example). Additionally, there weren't exactly a lot of games where the Hoyas were down big in the second half. Most games they lose are relatively close games, so there's a sample size issue to go along with your confirmation bias. Good job.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2014 14:31:38 GMT -5
A cursory search found these games where the Hoyas made up a double digit deficit in the second half since 2008-09: 2008-09: @syracuse--Hoyas came back from 16 down with 8 minutes remaining to force OT. espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=2904501832011-12: Marquette--Hoyas came back from 17 down with 13 minutes remaining to win. espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=320040046There are also numerous examples of coming back from 7-9 points down with under 3 minutes to go (the UConn game last year, for example). Additionally, there weren't exactly a lot of games where the Hoyas were down big in the second half. Most games they lose are relatively close games, so there's a sample size issue to go along with your confirmation bias. The Missouri game in KC comes to mind too. The thing I will say about MCI's point though is that most of those comebacks pretty much just scrapped the offense and relied on some very hot shooting from 3 (Austin vs UCONN and Cuse, Hollis vs Marquette, Clark vs Missouri) to make up a big deficit in a short amount of time. It's not like our backdoors suddenly started working and and we got back in the game 2 points at a time, using 30 seconds of the shot clock.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Feb 18, 2014 14:52:28 GMT -5
If the refs had called the charge on Obekpa in the first place . . . ...they'd have gotten the call wrong. Not so sure. Granted bril may have flopped a little, but you can't allow the bigger guy to just bang into the defender without trying to make any offensive move.
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TBird41
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
"Roy! I Love All 7'2" of you Roy!"
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Post by TBird41 on Feb 18, 2014 15:16:51 GMT -5
A cursory search found these games where the Hoyas made up a double digit deficit in the second half since 2008-09: 2008-09: @syracuse--Hoyas came back from 16 down with 8 minutes remaining to force OT. espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=2904501832011-12: Marquette--Hoyas came back from 17 down with 13 minutes remaining to win. espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=320040046There are also numerous examples of coming back from 7-9 points down with under 3 minutes to go (the UConn game last year, for example). Additionally, there weren't exactly a lot of games where the Hoyas were down big in the second half. Most games they lose are relatively close games, so there's a sample size issue to go along with your confirmation bias. The Missouri game in KC comes to mind too. The thing I will say about MCI's point though is that most of those comebacks pretty much just scrapped the offense and relied on some very hot shooting from 3 (Austin vs UCONN and Cuse, Hollis vs Marquette, Clark vs Missouri) to make up a big deficit in a short amount of time. It's not like our backdoors suddenly started working and and we got back in the game 2 points at a time, using 30 seconds of the shot clock. Right. It's probably good that we didn't start using the version of the offense Pete Carril ran in the 1980s, and instead continued to run a version of our offense.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2014 15:25:24 GMT -5
The Missouri game in KC comes to mind too. The thing I will say about MCI's point though is that most of those comebacks pretty much just scrapped the offense and relied on some very hot shooting from 3 (Austin vs UCONN and Cuse, Hollis vs Marquette, Clark vs Missouri) to make up a big deficit in a short amount of time. It's not like our backdoors suddenly started working and and we got back in the game 2 points at a time, using 30 seconds of the shot clock. Right. It's probably good that we didn't start using the version of the offense Pete Carril ran in the 1980s, and instead continued to run a version of our offense. That's kind of twisting my point isn't it?
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TBird41
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
"Roy! I Love All 7'2" of you Roy!"
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Post by TBird41 on Feb 18, 2014 15:40:28 GMT -5
Right. It's probably good that we didn't start using the version of the offense Pete Carril ran in the 1980s, and instead continued to run a version of our offense. That's kind of twisting my point isn't it? Your description of the offense as one that always takes 30 seconds and relies solely on back doors is an obnoxious stereotype best left to those trying to negatively recruit against us. Also, the Hoyas didn't come back against Mizzou (except at the end, when we were down by 4). Mizzou came back against us.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2014 16:07:19 GMT -5
That's kind of twisting my point isn't it? Your description of the offense as one that always takes 30 seconds and relies solely on back doors is an obnoxious stereotype best left to those trying to negatively recruit against us. Also, the Hoyas didn't come back against Mizzou (except at the end, when we were down by 4). Mizzou came back against us. please. we all know the "stereotype" isn't that far off. obnoxious isn't how i'd personally categorize somebody's opinion of an offense, but thanks for going there. good or bad it is what it is. everyone negative recruits-- the only problem is certain posters oversensitivity about calling our offense what it really is. i'm not even opposed to it, but don't deny that typically -- and especially in the past, albeit less so now -- we used a lot of the shot clock. great when you're ahead, not so much when behind. i stand by my point that the uconn and marquette comebacks were on the back of some really hot shooting and not some revelation of the offense that led to a 15 point deficit and then suddenly started working. No, Austin took over against UCONN, and we started feeding Hollis from 3 and working high-low plays between Sims-Lubick against Marquette. Hard to argue that point, but i guess thats you're making a wisecrack about how we're not coached by pete carrill and acting self-righteous about our offense. you are right about the Mizzu game-- i'll give you that. i misremembered that game.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Feb 18, 2014 16:25:16 GMT -5
The "Princeton Offense" relies equally on backdoor cuts, AND three-point shooting when the defense overplays the backdoors - so when we come back by getting hot from outside, isn't that in fact a direct result of the offensive system??
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2014 16:47:41 GMT -5
The "Princeton Offense" relies equally on backdoor cuts, AND three-point shooting when the defense overplays the backdoors - so when we come back by getting hot from outside, isn't that in fact a direct result of the offensive system?? In those cases, I wouldn't say so. We were in hurry-up mode and just fed hot shooters. A lot of those shots, werent setup by the opposition packing in against the 3. I honestly remember Austin just bringing the ball up the court and launching 3's or bullying his way to the basket. A lot of those 3's were also off drive and kicks (there's one of Austin in the corner i'm thinking off against Uconn and think the last 3 hollis made when Marquette actually wanted the charge call on Henry I believe). We also just hit tough shots made over defenders out of the flow of the offense completely. Really the kind of ball we criticize other teams for playing, kinda like Uconn where there guards have the ball and just create for themselves. Read: selfish. Now note, I'm not advocating for that kind of offense, only that every now and then, with the right combination of hot shooters and circumstances it will get you points in a hurry.
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joey0403p
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by joey0403p on Feb 18, 2014 17:04:14 GMT -5
I still like the ESH rant. He didn't do it in a game. He did it after a win. And he was protecting (trying) his player.
Frankly I wish jtiii did it more (selectively). Not all the time like jimmy b. but for example I think opponents have their hands all over Dsr now. If I were jtiii I would pin point that and complain a ton about it. Just make people aware that the reason Dsr s numbers are down the last few games is because guys aren't holding him fouling him etc.
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gujake
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
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Post by gujake on Feb 18, 2014 19:38:26 GMT -5
i'm not even opposed to it, but don't deny that typically -- and especially in the past, albeit less so now -- we used a lot of the shot clock. The numbers don't back this up, though. We're usually middle of the pack in average possession length. Obviously we don't play a fast style, but we're not much slower than average.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2014 19:56:39 GMT -5
i'm not even opposed to it, but don't deny that typically -- and especially in the past, albeit less so now -- we used a lot of the shot clock. The numbers don't back this up, though. We're usually middle of the pack in average possession length. Obviously we don't play a fast style, but we're not much slower than average. Would love to see the numbers on this, but I'm assuming a lot of it is skewed by really terrible teams that play extremely slow. Those numbers can also be skewed by terrible teams that are awful at rebounding and give up a lot of second chance points and thus lower their number of possessions. There's a lot of ways to manipulate that stat. Being in the middle of all of the NCAA is slow enough. Anyone that knows anything about CBB would probably agree that us and Wisconsin are probably the two slowest high major programs. I would be willing to bet you that of top 50 programs over that period of time we're very much near the bottom over the last six or so years. The last year or two though I think we all agree the offense has changed though....
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Post by professorhoya on Feb 18, 2014 20:05:05 GMT -5
Your profile pic is Stephen Domingo. Stop calling him Nate Lubrick. You are a complete loser. I'm one of Nate's biggest supporters, always have been but you are a bit slow. The word empowers but of course you wouldn't understand. Another childish tantrum by you. I've never had a problem with you or your articles, but I guess they were right, you are a socially awkward insecure fanboy.
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gujake
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
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Post by gujake on Feb 18, 2014 20:30:50 GMT -5
Would love to see the numbers on this, but I'm assuming a lot of it is skewed by really terrible teams that play extremely slow. Those numbers can also be skewed by terrible teams that are awful at rebounding and give up a lot of second chance points and thus lower their number of possessions. There's a lot of ways to manipulate that stat. Being in the middle of all of the NCAA is slow enough. Anyone that knows anything about CBB would probably agree that us and Wisconsin are probably the two slowest high major programs. I would be willing to bet you that of top 50 programs over that period of time we're very much near the bottom over the last six or so years. The last year or two though I think we all agree the offense has changed though.... Here's where we rank in average offensive possession length among Big East teams only. 2010: 8th out of 16 2011: 7th out of 16 2012: 9th out of 16 2013: 12th out of 15 2014: 8th out of 10
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dreamhoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,259
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Post by dreamhoya on Feb 18, 2014 20:41:07 GMT -5
i agree. as i wrote it i thought, who would he get it to. this should have been a breakout game for Bowen. Bowen matches up best with the Johnnies in terms of athleticism but his game isn't to a point where he was going to break out against a team of guys that are about as athletic as he is. If he's going to have a breakout game, it's going be against a less athletic squad where he realizes he can blow by his man and the man after that. Blowing by his man yesterday would have led to him to shot blockers. We needed a productive 5 yesterday and someone to be a threat from distance. We had neither. I respectfully disagree.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2014 21:16:56 GMT -5
Would love to see the numbers on this, but I'm assuming a lot of it is skewed by really terrible teams that play extremely slow. Those numbers can also be skewed by terrible teams that are awful at rebounding and give up a lot of second chance points and thus lower their number of possessions. There's a lot of ways to manipulate that stat. Being in the middle of all of the NCAA is slow enough. Anyone that knows anything about CBB would probably agree that us and Wisconsin are probably the two slowest high major programs. I would be willing to bet you that of top 50 programs over that period of time we're very much near the bottom over the last six or so years. The last year or two though I think we all agree the offense has changed though.... Here's where we rank in average offensive possession length among Big East teams only. 2010: 8th out of 16 2011: 7th out of 16 2012: 9th out of 16 2013: 12th out of 15 2014: 8th out of 10 Thanks. Seton Hall, St. Johns, Rutgers, Depaul, USF, Providence are all out of the top 50 programs in America. Providence, West Virginia and Cincy were probably borderline during that period, depending on the year. I'm assuming the teams that finished behind us mostly come from that group. Mayyyyyyybe Notre Dame and Pitt because they slowed it down sometimes.
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Post by michaelgrahmstylie on Feb 18, 2014 21:58:00 GMT -5
Unless this team completely collapses down the stretch, 5 more wins - especially if one of those is against 'Nova or Creighton - gets this team in easy. This game in no way shape or form makes winning the BET the only way the Hoyas get in. Looking at our resume, it's kinda crazy to even think that at this point. This. Going into the St. John's matchup I felt the Hoyas could afford to lose two more games and still make the NCAAs. The problem? I figured one of those losses would come immediately against St. John's which meant the Hoyas would only have room for one more loss in the final five contests.
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