FLHoya
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Post by FLHoya on Feb 17, 2014 21:36:55 GMT -5
This is so telling. For the premier brand/program/coach in the league, and the university that essentially made this whole league happen with its leadership, we get absolutely no respect from the refs. I can't remember a year where we've been on the wrong end of so many poorly ref'd games. I know there are a lot of reasons we don't get calls like Duke in the ACC but I would think there's a similar dynamic going on on a smaller scale with the new BE. The fact that, if anything, the opposite is going on is perplexing to me. I really don't understand why we have no pull in this league... Probably because, as hard as this is to believe after a demoralizing loss, the officials almost certainly don't give a crap one way or the other. Karl Hess is two states away from MSG tonight (Towson) and probably doesn't remember half of what went on last night. Besides, as I indicated in a different response, I thought viewing it on TV last night that the double technical was handled appropriately. I'd maybe want to stare at replays again to be double sure, but I have no complaints. Nor did I about the flagrant foul in Providence or parts of the Butler play (right to check replay for a flagrant, right to call no flagrant, wrong to have called a foul on Nate in the first place).
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Feb 17, 2014 21:44:16 GMT -5
This is so telling. For the premier brand/program/coach in the league, and the university that essentially made this whole league happen with its leadership, we get absolutely no respect from the refs. I can't remember a year where we've been on the wrong end of so many poorly ref'd games. I know there are a lot of reasons we don't get calls like Duke in the ACC but I would think there's a similar dynamic going on on a smaller scale with the new BE. The fact that, if anything, the opposite is going on is perplexing to me. I really don't understand why we have no pull in this league... Probably because, as hard as this is to believe after a demoralizing loss, the officials almost certainly don't give a crap one way or the other. Karl Hess is two states away from MSG tonight (Towson) and probably doesn't remember half of what went on last night. Besides, as I indicated in a different response, I thought viewing it on TV last night that the double technical was handled appropriately. I'd maybe want to stare at replays again to be double sure, but I have no complaints. Nor did I about the flagrant foul in Providence or parts of the Butler play (right to check replay for a flagrant, right to call no flagrant, wrong to have called a foul on Nate in the first place). ...perhaps you should just change your email address to: khess@spawnofsatan. orgbiz and be done with it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2014 21:46:57 GMT -5
This is so telling. For the premier brand/program/coach in the league, and the university that essentially made this whole league happen with its leadership, we get absolutely no respect from the refs. I can't remember a year where we've been on the wrong end of so many poorly ref'd games. I know there are a lot of reasons we don't get calls like Duke in the ACC but I would think there's a similar dynamic going on on a smaller scale with the new BE. The fact that, if anything, the opposite is going on is perplexing to me. I really don't understand why we have no pull in this league... Probably because, as hard as this is to believe after a demoralizing loss, the officials almost certainly don't give a crap one way or the other. Karl Hess is two states away from MSG tonight (Towson) and probably doesn't remember half of what went on last night. Besides, as I indicated in a different response, I thought viewing it on TV last night that the double technical was handled appropriately. I'd maybe want to stare at replays again to be double sure, but I have no complaints. Nor did I about the flagrant foul in Providence or parts of the Butler play (right to check replay for a flagrant, right to call no flagrant, wrong to have called a foul on Nate in the first place). I'm definitely not one of those people that blames the refs for our losses and believe their is enough blame internal to the Gtown program to explain our down year. Having said that, I've more or less felt this way about the refs all season-- last night had nothing to do with it. I don't think there's any conspiracy against us or anything but I do think there's a subtle dislike for a couple guys on our team that targeted with foul calls. Bottom line is that I don't think we've gotten many benefit of the doubt calls recently.....
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Feb 17, 2014 22:06:27 GMT -5
Coach K and Boeheim have never had a call go against them that they liked. But the other team gets the short end of the stick in Durham and Canada, respectively. As far as Jabril is concerned, he seems like he talks smack to opposing players but he's not overly vocal with the refs. It'd be one thing if JT3 moaned about every call. He doesn't. Neither do our players on the whole. Of the guys I've seen on the current squad not getting back on D because of complaining about a call on the prior offensive possession, Jabril hasn't been one of the most noticeable offenders.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2014 22:08:59 GMT -5
Coach K and Boeheim have never had a call go against them that they liked. But the other team gets the short end of the stick in Durham and Canada, respectively. As far as Jabril is concerned, he seems like he talks smack to opposing players but he's not overly vocal with the refs. It'd be one thing if JT3 moaned about every call. He doesn't. Neither do our players on the whole. Of the guys I've seen on the current squad not getting back on D because of complaining about a call on the prior offensive possession, Jabril hasn't been one of the most noticeable offenders. Jabril had been warned to stop arguing calls a couple times earlier in the game. There was one particularly long talk when he was lining up in the lane during St. Johns freethrows after a call he particularly didn't like.....
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Post by wrestlemania on Feb 17, 2014 22:16:35 GMT -5
They lost by 22 points. Perhaps the referees are not the issue.
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Post by cturner on Feb 17, 2014 22:17:30 GMT -5
This game saw the return of two big problems: turnovers and fouls. Why Hopkins and Ayegba are unable to stay on the floor without fouling constantly is a mystery at this point in the season. St Johns is quick but . . . Actually St Johns played a beautiful game but of course our defense, particularly in the first half was a joke. They shot an unbelievable percentage but most of the shots were completely uncontested and wide open. The Sisters of St Marys could have shot 50% against our zone which leaked like a sieve.
We did better in the second half but when we got the score within 7 with Starks, Smith-Rivera, Trawick, Bowen and Lubick, and after a time out called by St Johns I believe, Hopkins came in and we immediately went backwards and never regained any momentum.
Right now SJ is a very good team and may be the team to beat in the BE tournament. I fear SH since they nearly beat SJ last weekend. A loss to SH would end any realistic chance of a tournament berth with four games against much better teams coming up.
One thing about this season with expectations now so low is that a loss is not so devastating (although last night was rough since by any objective measure we were not competitive) and a win just feels great regardless of who we beat.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2014 22:32:14 GMT -5
They lost by 22 points. Perhaps the referees are not the issue. I really don't think anyone said they were last night
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2014 22:35:37 GMT -5
This game saw the return of two big problems: turnovers and fouls. Why Hopkins and Ayegba are unable to stay on the floor without fouling constantly is a mystery at this point in the season. St Johns is quick but . . . Actually St Johns played a beautiful game but of course our defense, particularly in the first half was a joke. They shot an unbelievable percentage but most of the shots were completely uncontested and wide open. The Sisters of St Marys could have shot 50% against our zone which leaked like a sieve. We did better in the second half but when we got the score within 7 with Starks, Smith-Rivera, Trawick, Bowen and Lubick, and after a time out called by St Johns I believe, Hopkins came in and we immediately went backwards and never regained any momentum. Right now SJ is a very good team and may be the team to beat in the BE tournament. I fear SH since they nearly beat SJ last weekend. A loss to SH would end any realistic chance of a tournament berth with four games against much better teams coming up. One thing about this season with expectations now so low is that a loss is not so devastating (although last night was rough since by any objective measure we were not competitive) and a win just feels great regardless of who we beat. Agreed. It's amazing to me they havent learned to contest without fouling. somebody needs to explain that you're gonna have to allow opponents to get their shots off. sometimes even close to the basket. sometimes they'll even make those shots. but thats the price you pay for keeping your bigs out of foul trouble. it's a trade that we just have to make to keep guys on the flour and free to contest the shots that they really can go after because they arent in foul trouble. clearly this message isn't being delivered or isn't resonating. just want to see our guys put a hand in the shooters face but back off otherwise...
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Post by michaelgrahmstylie on Feb 17, 2014 22:39:10 GMT -5
I have often wondered what would have been if JT-III had decided to play Lubick at center instead of Hopkins. Quite frankly, I just don't see Hopkins wanting to play that position. I go back to something that he himself said last season. He was effusive about Josh Smith joining the team and he told the interviewer: "Wait until next year, when we have a real big man..." The situation that developed was that we had someone playing a position he does not feel he is suited to play and does not want to play. When Josh had his academic mishap maybe we should have gone with Lubick or Ayegbe at center. What I saw last night was a not to motivated Hokins.
I actually like the line up of Lubick at center and Bowen and Jabril at forward. We have more speed and athleticism in the game and matches up better with teams in the BE. I am telling you, if we play Creighton with that same line up we had last night, we'll be ran clean out of the building.
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Feb 17, 2014 23:21:23 GMT -5
Coach K and Boeheim have never had a call go against them that they liked. But the other team gets the short end of the stick in Durham and Canada, respectively. As far as Jabril is concerned, he seems like he talks smack to opposing players but he's not overly vocal with the refs. It'd be one thing if JT3 moaned about every call. He doesn't. Neither do our players on the whole. Of the guys I've seen on the current squad not getting back on D because of complaining about a call on the prior offensive possession, Jabril hasn't been one of the most noticeable offenders. Jabril had been warned to stop arguing calls a couple times earlier in the game. There was one particularly long talk when he was lining up in the lane during St. Johns freethrows after a call he particularly didn't like..... Here I thought this was a reputation thing. I didn't realize one game was a rep. People can crap on the kid if they like but it's mostly just not true. He plays hard and plays tough guy. Nothing wrong with that. I could easily argue that this team needs a bit of that.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2014 23:27:25 GMT -5
Jabril had been warned to stop arguing calls a couple times earlier in the game. There was one particularly long talk when he was lining up in the lane during St. Johns freethrows after a call he particularly didn't like..... Here I thought this was a reputation thing. I didn't realize one game was a rep. People can crap on the kid if they like but it's mostly just not true. He plays hard and plays tough guy. Nothing wrong with that. I could easily argue that this team needs a bit of that. Huh? I'm confused Tas. What do you mean one game thing? He has a rep already. Then during last night's game he got into in a few conversations with refs about calls he didn't like. I saw a ref explicitly tell him to stop arguing. I wasn't surprised at all they took the opportunity to t him up. that's all. it's got nothing to do with him playing hard and being tough. both of those things he definitely does.
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Feb 17, 2014 23:37:00 GMT -5
He doesn't yap at refs typically. What rep does he have?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2014 23:57:05 GMT -5
He doesn't yap at refs typically. What rep does he have? Really? I feel like this is pretty widely observed by everyone on the board and fans that I've talked to. I've never seen a game where he hasn't argued with refs. (I should say, a lot of his complaints are warranted) His rep is a trashtalker who is constantly causing skirmishes and rubbing people the wrong way. Refs don't like having to constantly break up his fights. Opponents obviously dont like his jawing, which I could care less about, but then it gets him wrapped up in scuffles and it becomes counterproductive. Some people on this board have gone so far as calling him dirty/thuggish -- see a couple of his plays vs Florida Gulf Coast -- although I wouldnt go that far personally. Even JT3 has referenced having to talk to him during the time he was out about how he needs to redirect his energy in more productive ways. It's not a coincidence he is always catching technicals and flagrants and has a pretty high fouls/minute ratio.
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FLHoya
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Post by FLHoya on Feb 18, 2014 7:17:40 GMT -5
...perhaps you should just change your email address to: khess@spawnofsatan. orgbiz and be done with it. You and I both know that if this existed it would be a Compuserve account.
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hoyainspirit
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Post by hoyainspirit on Feb 18, 2014 9:21:50 GMT -5
I want Jabril to keep bringin' it! That call was B.S.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Feb 18, 2014 11:15:03 GMT -5
If the refs had called the charge on Obekpa in the first place . . .
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FLHoya
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Post by FLHoya on Feb 18, 2014 12:43:12 GMT -5
If the refs had called the charge on Obekpa in the first place . . . ...they'd have gotten the call wrong.
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seaweed
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Post by seaweed on Feb 18, 2014 13:09:47 GMT -5
Re officiating, respect and getting calls
GU has never* challenged refs the way whiners like Boheim and K do - it is not our style and, as pointed out above, Edited poor officiating is rarely the deciding factor in games. The game is preparation for life where there are all sorts of s with authority and you better be ready for arbitrary rulings that can gut you if you let them. So we teach our guys that there are three teams out there and we have to beat two of them every night, without bitching, complaining or getting in John Cahill's grill like he so desperately needs. After 30odd years of this, nobody should be surprised that the refs have decided that they owe us no favors.
The game Sunday was poorly officiated, though the foul on DSR at the end of the first half is a far better example than JT55's undeserved T. About 1:10 left in the first half, Starks drives into the lane and pulls up, challenged by Pointer or Green or someone. He misses. DSR is boxing out, basically just trying to stand there while getting shoved by some SJU guy, when the SJU player who challenged the shot lands on him, literally lands right on his head. DSR had not moved under him or undercut him - the guy had simply jumped without any concern for coming down and he landed on our legitimately positioned, stationary player. Foul on DSR. As for the T, I would hate to be the ref who called the T on the court and then went to the monitors and watched as Jabril got mugged and did nothing except reach out to swat away hands that were clawing at him well after the whistle. There is no way he gets T'd up off the replay - if it hadn't been called live, they probably just would have gone the tie ball route or something. But one of the officials had signaled double tech and so they stayed with their pride and their call - typically weak and stupid refs, but that's what you get when your entire pool of prospective employees is made up of middle-age men who think it would be cool to blow whistles at kids and tell them what they are doing wrong.
You may say talking to officials is unwarranted and 'bril needs to pipe down blah blah blah, but when the game ceases to follow rational rules, you have to say something. III needs a T and damn soon because as much as the theoretical "that's just like life" lesson is awesome, you can't let kids believe that there is nothing that can be done about Editeded up stupid people in positions of authority. Somebody needs to make sure things remain moderately fair out there and whatever he is doing about it behind the scenes, III is leaving his players out on the court under untenable conditions at times - like elbows to the face, constant grabbing on cuts, etc, all while getting far worse without calls. Has DSR ever been fouled on the way to the hoop? Markel can be thrown on the ground and hammered in mid-air (last second Obekpa block Sunday) and the refs will do nothing, but if he so much as places a hand on the back of an opposing player, foul. That level of inconsistency cannot be tolerated and is extremely disheartening to the kids playing the game.
I am one of the people who thinks we get a raw deal from refs and I will gladly debate any call with anyone. That said, as I have said before, this year, what is bad for GU is good for the BEast and perhaps there is no better potential beneficiary than SJU. If SJU contends, the Garden is filled for the BET in the time it takes a 7 train to ramble in from Queens and that helps us all long term. Same thing with making sure that Creighton, Xavier and Butler are immediately relevant in a major league - to the extent those teams benefit from shoddy refereeing this year (and of course I believe they did when they played GU), then it works to the long term advantage of the league by making us viable for national media. Georgetown will remain a strong national program as long as it wishes to, our tradition is that strong, but showing the world that other teams can play on the national stage is what makes the league prosper and we need that.
As FL pointed out, the refs probably don't have an agenda and probably don't even know who the teams are half the time. Or maybe they hate certain programs and look to screw those teams whenever they can. Or maybe the league flat told them, don't worry about GU, protect the teams that we need to succeed. Who knows, who cares. At the end of the day, you have to win over all 8 opponents on the court and this year's group hasn't pulled that together yet.
sincerely, oliver stone
* obviously the Esh Tirade is the one exception, one that stands out to this day almost a decade and a half later because of how out of place it was in our tradition.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Feb 18, 2014 13:17:14 GMT -5
My internet connection has been unreliable the past few days so excuse me for being late to the party.
That was a butt-kicking. I felt the Hoyas would lose that game in the days leading up to it. The Johnnies have been playing well, the game was at MSG and most of all St. John’s must have been getting quite sick of losing to Gtown again and again and again. As I wrote days ago the Johnnies wee overdue. Still I was expecting a closer game. Would have been a closer one if the Hoyas could shoot threes that night.
Give St. John’s credit. They were up for this game and they played superbly. Do I think they are that much better than Gtown? No. Then again when Gtown has blown out St. John’s the past couple of seasons I didn’t think the Hoyas were that much better either. This may be a terrible comparison considering the quality of the teams of the past I’m about to dredge up, but all I could think of was how the Bulls finally realized they were better than the Pistons in the early 90s and decided to put their minds to finally beating them. I know, I know. Terrible comparison. Still at least this point of the season it is clear St. John’s is the better team. Would the story be different if the Hoyas had Whittington and Josh Smith? Yes. But they don’t so….
St. John’s made shots. Especially Hamilton, who finally had a good game against the Hoyas and Jordan. And it wasn’t as if the Hoyas played awful defense. Those guys made some tough shots, and shot way above their averages to boot. As a team they made some great drives to halt any Georgetown momentum and as a team they passed the ball brilliant inside and their bigs were able to convert once they did.
In the meantime the Hoyas bigs were awful, especially Hopkins and Moses. They couldn’t defend the pass, they couldn’t score. Nate comes out looking better in comparison simply by managing to stay out of foul trouble, but to be honest he was a non-factor too in most regards. It amazes me that defenders stay so close to Nate. Even in the man-to-man defense I’m surprised they don’t hang back about seven feet in order to dare Nate to try to pass (so they can pick it off) or dare Nate to shoot (which is what they want him to do). The Hoyas got a quick bucket to open up the second half thanks to Nate passing to a teammate on a backdoor cut. But found it telling that on the next offensive possession the Hoyas showed how little they had to work with on offense that night when Nate went for the backdoor pass again. Did he and his team really think the Johnnies weren’t ready for that? In fact quite a few times the Hoyas threw some lazy passes that made you feel that they thought they were playing Butler again rather than a highly athletic team like St. John’s.
And that may have been the biggest difference. This St. John’s teams simply outclasses the Hoyas o the athleticism front. The Hoyas have manage t beat teams in the past who had the athletic edge but that was when the Hoyas had more scorers to help make up the difference. When the Hoyas don’t have those abundance of scorers and shooters the athleticism factor comes into play much more than typical. Markel seemed to be bothered by that athleticism and the height of the guards too. He had an off night. The only three guys to have solid to good games were DSR, Bowen and Trawick. DSR appeared to play within himself and I wasn’t sure if that was the result of him not wanting to hog the ball and be selfish or was it simply that he realized he wasn’t going to be able to score with all those defenders swarming him when he drove. In terms of athleticism only Trawick and Bowen looked as if they belonged although neither seemed comfortable enough to drive, And Trawick displayed his limitations as a finisher when he blew that one layup attempt (which should have been a dunk attempt) when he was driving to the hole all the while worried about the defenders hot on his tail.
It’s games like these that I wish Josh was still in the lineup (hell, who am I kidding? I wish he was still in the lineup all the time). People may dismiss the possibility that he would have made any difference, but even despite all his limitations he is still a big man with great hands and hops who could have done damage in the paint. Even if he could only give you 20 minutes I say throw the ball into him as much as possible when he’s on the court and let him compile some points before he fouls out.
The key thing going forward, even beyond improved athleticism, is ensuring that in future seasons the Hoyas have at least four guys on the court at all times who are a danger to score in the halfcourt if left unguarded. On Sunday so often it looked as if the Hoyas only had two (DSR and Starks) who were legitimate scorers. Whether this happens as the result of new recruits, the improvement of Trawick, Bowen and Hopkins and/or the building of confidence of a guy like Cameron, Gtown must put on a floor that is difficult to guard even if the opposition takes away the backdoor cuts.
One reoccurring concern: III’s teams still seem incapable of coming back from large first half or early second half deficits. His teams don’t know quit and will keep fighting but the style of play doesn’t exactly allow for recovering from such deficits. Yes, it is hard for teams of any style of play to come back, but it seems as if it never happens when III’s team is the one that has to come back all the way. Does anyone have examples of III’s teams doing this? I’m guessing it has happened at least once. Was that the UNC Final Eight game?
As far as the refs are concerned I thought there were a few times in which the Johnnies drove and were rewarded with FT attempts even though the Hoyas looked as if they hadn’t fouled. Nate was victimized by that at least once. And I don’t fault Jabril from taking umbrage late in the second half. The St. John’s big man was essentially pounding him on the floor unnecessarily. And how is it that for the third time a Hoya was called for the foul after receiving a physical bruise of some kind? The refs were not great, although it did not cost us the game.
Forgot to say that, even though I have not given up on the season by any means, let these other teams get in their blows now. Because starting nex season, as long as no one flunks out, this is gonna be a whole new ballgame.
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