Filo
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by Filo on Jan 25, 2015 10:39:41 GMT -5
Couple of points: - I think on a discussion board, it's fair game to respectfully criticize a player for basketball plays and skills. If there are those that feel this shouldnt be allowed, I suppose there are other forums or perhaps threads where everything can be limited to cheerleading. Personal criticism not related to basketball seems to be where we should draw the line. - Cameron has been a bad shooter by any objective measure this year. The old adage that thirty three percent from 3 is like shooting fifty percent from 2 breaks down when you shoot 24% from 3. If we had any player shooting 36% from the field would we be arguing for more time? - I don't think too many posters on this board would argue that his defense has been good. - as an earlier poster mentioned, it is reasonable to debate whether spot minutes are worthwhile investment to see if we can develop his confidence/performance in outside shot and defensive understanding/awareness for the future. - where some of the pro-Cameron poster have been using suspect logic is pointing at 2 of our recent examples of late bloomers: sims and Bowen. Both had physical tools that Cameron does not have: in Sim's case plus college height and good athleticism and in bowen's case elite athleticism and good height. Both had greater upside when they stopped making bad decisions. - that is not to say that Cameron can't develop, but he isn't going to do so with radically better lateral movement on D in order to stay on quick opponents or great elevation for weak side shot blocking help. A quick first step is probably not going to happen either but in the college game there are good shooters who can use the head fake and aggressive close out to develop a bit of a drive option. His absolute upside is Ethan Wragge on Creighton last year--a dead eye shooter who didn't bring much else to the table. But I would argue that 1000 shots per day in the gym is more helpful in developing that skill (or at least a necessary prerequisite) than a few minutes of PT. When he is hitting 50% unguarded (which he maybe doing in practice) that is when it would make sense for coaches to see if he can get into the game to shoot a percentage to make his minutes a net positive. I don't think there are many, if any, posters on the Reggie bandwagon, jumping in to push for more time for him. I think what we are seeing is a natural -- and understandable-- defensive reaction to the OP. I mean, missing three rotation players in an OT win in a hostile environment, and the take-away is a post bashing the insertion of a player who, although not playing well, appears to be a great teammate and does whatever the staff asks of him. Whatever floats your boat, I guess (not directed at you Canis).
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dense
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,014
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Post by dense on Jan 25, 2015 10:58:27 GMT -5
Couple of points: - I think on a discussion board, it's fair game to respectfully criticize a player for basketball plays and skills. If there are those that feel this shouldnt be allowed, I suppose there are other forums or perhaps threads where everything can be limited to cheerleading. Personal criticism not related to basketball seems to be where we should draw the line. - Cameron has been a bad shooter by any objective measure this year. The old adage that thirty three percent from 3 is like shooting fifty percent from 2 breaks down when you shoot 24% from 3. If we had any player shooting 36% from the field would we be arguing for more time? - I don't think too many posters on this board would argue that his defense has been good. - as an earlier poster mentioned, it is reasonable to debate whether spot minutes are worthwhile investment to see if we can develop his confidence/performance in outside shot and defensive understanding/awareness for the future. - where some of the pro-Cameron poster have been using suspect logic is pointing at 2 of our recent examples of late bloomers: sims and Bowen. Both had physical tools that Cameron does not have: in Sim's case plus college height and good athleticism and in bowen's case elite athleticism and good height. Both had greater upside when they stopped making bad decisions. - that is not to say that Cameron can't develop, but he isn't going to do so with radically better lateral movement on D in order to stay on quick opponents or great elevation for weak side shot blocking help. A quick first step is probably not going to happen either but in the college game there are good shooters who can use the head fake and aggressive close out to develop a bit of a drive option. His absolute upside is Ethan Wragge on Creighton last year--a dead eye shooter who didn't bring much else to the table. But I would argue that 1000 shots per day in the gym is more helpful in developing that skill (or at least a necessary prerequisite) than a few minutes of PT. When he is hitting 50% unguarded (which he maybe doing in practice) that is when it would make sense for coaches to see if he can get into the game to shoot a percentage to make his minutes a net positive. Taking your post you are clarifying me as a Pro Cameron guy. I am a pro let's not throw someone under the bus who still has 2 years left guy not pro cameron. I am not saying you can't criticize but the original poster was making statements that made no sense in terms of THIS GAME. There was a reason to play him. As for your using Bowen and Sims as comparsion not comparable. I am saying he can be a positive player using his skill that got him here. I am not proclaiming him to be a future NBA player. Like I said I am not pro Cameron. I am pro letting someone develop who obviously was worth a schollie. He was a top 100 player, Bowen was not.
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Post by tullamore2 on Jan 25, 2015 11:20:06 GMT -5
Reggie has the ability to be James Southerland. He was a SF that was a 3 point specialist. It took him awhile to fulfill his role. Let Reggie grow and develop at his own pace. The payoff will help this team down the road. Look at Southerlands stats and career arc. He didn't avg more then 6 pts or 16 minutes until his senior year. Then he exploded. www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/james-southerland-1.html
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DanMcQ
Moderator
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Post by DanMcQ on Jan 25, 2015 11:47:09 GMT -5
Lots of great points here. The kid by all accounts and by my observation at games is a great teammate who has plus deep shooting form and skill but has not been able to show it reliably in games. Defense is not his strong suit though he has made strides. He seems to still let disappointment when he misses shots he knows he should hit bleed into his performance on the defensive end. Putting him in the game yesterday made great sense if only to steal some minutes. The shot he took was a good one - it just didn't fall.
Much like the abuse Hopkins regularly has been given in posts here, over the top language like "wasted scholarship" (not in this thread) are almost never warranted. Patience is. There are multiple recent examples where guys we never would have expected to be important contributors have grown into that. Aaron Bowen and Mikael Hopkins are 2 such examples here.
Think before you post stuff that goes over that line between critiquing game performance and slamming the person.
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richfame
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by richfame on Jan 25, 2015 12:19:05 GMT -5
Pash- a word of advise you cannot go on a crusade against any hoya player and think you won't get push back, that's just how it is. I was very critical towards hank sims for three years. Maybe I was a bit harsh but I think I was dead in most of the time and got hammered. Bottom line is your right. RC was billed as a sharp shooter and he has been awful! Your also right his miss lead to a breakout and a 5 pt swing. Your also right he can't play defense and should see limited minutes. All that being said you just have to tread carefully on the criticism especially after a huge road win. Enjoy the win bro. Rich you are kinda making my point. Henry is a NBA player now and probably will be for the conceivable future. I know you didn't see that at all when making those posts. I am not saying Reggie is going to do that but you never know what his next 2 years will be. If he wants to be a Hoya for 4 years and trust the process like Aaron did I am happy. I was one of the detractors that said don't bring Moses and Aaron back. I am happy to be wrong about him. i agree with you. Personally i would like RC to get the opportunity to get a few minutes to see if he can get hot. i really think that if he can go 3-4 from three it would be a huge confidence builder and he would be fine. i bet that he was a very good shooter in highschool and he can make them in practice so why not the games right.... As far as Henry Sims knowone was happier then me that he put it all together, and took his opportunity serioulsy and had a great season. i would be equally as happy for RC. i hope posters give him thechance to drop those 2 or 3 shots so he can get his confidence..
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Filo
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,910
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Post by Filo on Jan 25, 2015 12:44:55 GMT -5
Every time I post on this board, I'm reminded why I rarely post on this board. The bulk of the replies to my post have responded to arguments I didn't make or have otherwise been complete non-sequiturs. The one valid response several of you offered is that we needed bodies in that situation due to injuries and fouls. Fine. It's a reasonable argument. My counter-argument is that even down a couple of guys, this team still has enough bodies to get by without putting Cameron into situations where his bad play can decide the outcome of the game. There are nine guys ahead of him in the rotation. That's one more than the number of players on scholarship for the opposing team yesterday. A tenth man is a luxury, not a necessity, in just about any situation. (If the alternative is to forfeit, I'm fine with putting Reggie in.) The second part of my argument is that Cameron has demonstrated such a unique ineptitude on both sides of the court this season that it is not worth the risk of exercising that luxury. It wasn't just against Marquette that Cameron has contributed to swings of several points in the wrong direction in mere minutes of action. That was his worst performance so far, I think, but he has given free lanes to the basket and front-rimmed threes that lead to outlets the other way in just about every game he's played this season. Why is it worth trying to steal three or four minutes from a guy in a close game when he has shown repeatedly that he's likelier than not to net the other team two or four points in that span? Or do you disagree about whether there's really a negative expected return to Cameron's time on the floor right now? Why is everybody so much more willing to let Reggie jack a few threes every game than they were to let, say, Mescheriakov do the same five years ago? Their results have been remarkably similar, only Nikita's dismal performances unfolded over longer spans while playing for teams that didn't have nearly the options to replace his minutes thst this team has to replace Cameron's. Seriously, your posts are so filled with hyperbole that they beg for responses. Reggie has played in, what, 2 of the last 5 games and has taken a total of 1 shot in those games? Something like that, anyway. Where the hell is the "jack a few threes" argument even coming from? You're just making stuff up to hear yourself talk now. SMH.
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mfk24
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Post by mfk24 on Jan 25, 2015 12:56:18 GMT -5
Why is everybody so much more willing to let Reggie jack a few threes every game than they were to let, say, Mescheriakov do the same five years ago? Their results have been remarkably similar, only Nikita's dismal performances unfolded over longer spans while playing for teams that didn't have nearly the options to replace his minutes thst this team has to replace Cameron's. You kidding? Cameron is stealing minutes from absolutely no one. He got 4 minutes when we were down 2 guys with a 3rd guy in foul trouble. Please tell us who these other options at the 2/3 were at that point in the game? Bowen, DSR, Ike, and Josh were already in the game. PW had 4 fouls, Hopkins had only been on the bench about 1 minute, and III had to give one of Tre or DSR a quick blow considering neither came out of the game again.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Jan 25, 2015 13:05:50 GMT -5
Every time I post on this board, I'm reminded why I rarely post on this board. The bulk of the replies to my post have responded to arguments I didn't make or have otherwise been complete non-sequiturs. The one valid response several of you offered is that we needed bodies in that situation due to injuries and fouls. Fine. It's a reasonable argument. My counter-argument is that even down a couple of guys, this team still has enough bodies to get by without putting Cameron into situations where his bad play can decide the outcome of the game. There are nine guys ahead of him in the rotation. That's one more than the number of players on scholarship for the opposing team yesterday. A tenth man is a luxury, not a necessity, in just about any situation. (If the alternative is to forfeit, I'm fine with putting Reggie in.) The second part of my argument is that Cameron has demonstrated such a unique ineptitude on both sides of the court this season that it is not worth the risk of exercising that luxury. It wasn't just against Marquette that Cameron has contributed to swings of several points in the wrong direction in mere minutes of action. That was his worst performance so far, I think, but he has given free lanes to the basket and front-rimmed threes that lead to outlets the other way in just about every game he's played this season. Why is it worth trying to steal three or four minutes from a guy in a close game when he has shown repeatedly that he's likelier than not to net the other team two or four points in that span? Or do you disagree about whether there's really a negative expected return to Cameron's time on the floor right now? Pash - I still am puzzled over your "enough bodies to get by" definition. At that moment we had 2 guys hurt(don't remember if Aaron was hurt yet, someone above said he was not so I will assume that is true). White had 4 fouls so not an option. Hayes obviously is not an option at any spot but the 5. Coach was trying to alternate Josh and Hop to keep them fresh and out of foul trouble. So Cameron was pretty much the only option to give anyone a breather. Coach tried to get a few minutes of rest for the few guys we had left; unfortunately we got burned. I don't think Reggie is universally bad on the defensive end, but he is certainly below average and struggling. Would help us if he could get his stroke back. But if not, he will continue to see very little time, and zero in some games.
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beenaround
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Post by beenaround on Jan 25, 2015 13:06:19 GMT -5
Why is everybody so much more willing to let Reggie jack a few threes every game than they were to let, say, Mescheriakov do the same five years ago? Their results have been remarkably similar, only Nikita's dismal performances unfolded over longer spans while playing for teams that didn't have nearly the options to replace his minutes thst this team has to replace Cameron's. First of all, Nikita was STARTING for the team, and most folks did not understand why. That is a legitimate issue to be discussing, especially after a starter plays poorly. Reggie is literally the tenth man on the team. He gets in for a couple of minutes...does what he does, and sits. I think most of us do not feel the need to bash a kid who seems to be a good teammate , and normally only play when there are injuries and foul trouble. Anyway, I objected to your initial post, as did others, as it seemed rather bizarre to attack Reggie's play after such a hard fought OT win, with so many players out with injuries. Anyway...let's beat Xavier and move on from this.
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Buckets
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by Buckets on Jan 25, 2015 13:10:04 GMT -5
I disagreed with most of the discussion of his form in this thread, so I watched a few Cameron highlight reels from high school. It seems like his release has gotten a lot slower since then. His form isn't exactly textbook either. No lift on his jumper. We're not talking about Hollis Thompson here.
I do agree with OP's point that he probably shouldn't have been on the floor yesterday, though, and was surprised he got in. I would have, and III eventually did, just run the six-man rotation of DSR, Tre, hobbled Bowen, Copeland, Hopkins, and Smith into the ground.
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OldHoyafan
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Post by OldHoyafan on Jan 25, 2015 13:52:35 GMT -5
I thought Cameron would get an opportunity this game because of Marquette playing zone the whole game. As a fan during the blow by blow of the game, I confess to feeling the angst of "get this guy out of the game before he costs the team more points" during the two sequences mentioned. Now, after the game and all the adrenalin having subsided, I really feel for the young man. He more than anyone knows why he was recruited by JT III. He was to be that zone buster that would make teams pay for playing zone against the Hoya offense. He would help shoot them out of the zone defense back to the man to man that would be exploited by the backdoor cuts. Because of his height, he was supposed to be immune to smaller guards running out at him to affect his shot. For whatever reason it just has not happened for him , so far. I think those who are more level headed than I, are right when they say it may yet happen for him, and the only way that it does is if he gets that opportunity. We will just have to trust that JTIII has the judgment of what the proper time is to give him that opportunity is and how long of a chance to give him. He may yet become their 3pt specialist like a lot of teams have. Until then I as a fan reserve the right to feel the angst when he misses that wide open 3pt shot that would put the HOYAS ahead or tie late in the game, and forgive me when I yell at the TV "take him out JTIII". After all I am still a fanatic.
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dense
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by dense on Jan 25, 2015 14:04:31 GMT -5
I thought Cameron would get an opportunity this game because of Marquette playing zone the whole game. As a fan during the blow by blow of the game, I confess to feeling the angst of "get this guy out of the game before he costs the team more points" during the two sequences mentioned. Now, after the game and all the adrenalin having subsided, I really feel for the young man. He more than anyone knows why he was recruited by JT III. He was to be that zone buster that would make teams pay for playing zone against the Hoya offense. He would help shoot them out of the zone defense back to the man to man that would be exploited by the backdoor cuts. Because of his height, he was supposed to be immune to smaller guards running out at him to affect his shot. For whatever reason it just has not happened for him , so far. I think those who are more level headed than I, are right when they say it may yet happen for him, and the only way that it does is if he gets that opportunity. We will just have to trust that JTIII has the judgment of what the proper time is to give him that opportunity is and how long of a chance to give him. He may yet become their 3pt specialist like a lot of teams have. Until then I as a fan reserve the right to feel the angst when he misses that wide open 3pt shot that would put the HOYAS ahead or tie late in the game, and forgive me when I yell at the TV "take him out JTIII". After all I am still a fanatic. This is the approach I hope Pash adopts. I don't mind if you are upset coach puts a guy in but to see "no reason" is silly. He tried something it didn't work. Anyway I am done with this discussion.
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Post by hoyasaxa18 on Jan 25, 2015 14:15:29 GMT -5
I can't believe we are arguing about a kid getting four minutes after an exhilarating road conference win
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Post by hoyacane11 on Jan 25, 2015 14:18:51 GMT -5
Reggie is the 10th man in a nine-player rotation as a sophomore. He was recruited as a specialist -- a zone buster. He has nice form so the decision to recruit him was sound. We then brought in superb talent at the forward/swing guard position, so his time is reduced this year. It has not clicked for him yet and maybe it never will. Or like Bowen he can blossom late as a specialist. He will still have a chance for a role next year with Jabril and Bowen leaving. If he develops then things are good -- if he does not, he will still be the tenth man in the rotation and can either stay and get a great education for free, or transfer if basketball is that important. So bottom line, it is too early to tell how his career will turn out but either way -- what is the point of criticizing this kid? I agree with giving Cameron limited minutes in games, but it definitely shouldn't be anywhere near crunch time, as was the case yesterday. He needs to EARN more minutes, and to this point, he has done absolutely nothing to earn crunch time minute. He does need to get his confidence up, and he can't do that from the bench, but PLEASE let it be in the first half or in a blowout. I've never seen someone with such a nice stroke miss so much.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Jan 25, 2015 14:25:04 GMT -5
I disagreed with most of the discussion of his form in this thread, so I watched a few Cameron highlight reels from high school. It seems like his release has gotten a lot slower since then. His form isn't exactly textbook either. No lift on his jumper. We're not talking about Hollis Thompson here. I do agree with OP's point that he probably shouldn't have been on the floor yesterday, though, and was surprised he got in. I would have, and III eventually did, just run the six-man rotation of DSR, Tre, hobbled Bowen, Copeland, Hopkins, and Smith into the ground. "Hobbled Bowen" was unable to play after the injury, so not an option. Going with 5 guys - including Josh and Hop together for the rest of the game - would be disastrous. We needed somebody to buy 3-4 minutes, Reggie was our choice, even if it was going to be a negative. Sometimes you have to coach with the rest of the game in mind.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Jan 25, 2015 14:28:10 GMT -5
Reggie is the 10th man in a nine-player rotation as a sophomore. He was recruited as a specialist -- a zone buster. He has nice form so the decision to recruit him was sound. We then brought in superb talent at the forward/swing guard position, so his time is reduced this year. It has not clicked for him yet and maybe it never will. Or like Bowen he can blossom late as a specialist. He will still have a chance for a role next year with Jabril and Bowen leaving. If he develops then things are good -- if he does not, he will still be the tenth man in the rotation and can either stay and get a great education for free, or transfer if basketball is that important. So bottom line, it is too early to tell how his career will turn out but either way -- what is the point of criticizing this kid? I agree with giving Cameron limited minutes in games, but it definitely shouldn't be anywhere near crunch time, as was the case yesterday. He needs to EARN more minutes, and to this point, he has done absolutely nothing to earn crunch time minute. He does need to get his confidence up, and he can't do that from the bench, but PLEASE let it be in the first half or in a blowout. I've never seen someone with such a nice stroke miss so much.
Again - our only other choice was to go with 5 guys the rest of the way. The risk was still worth it, even with Reggie's minuses yesterday.
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Post by hoyacane11 on Jan 25, 2015 14:29:09 GMT -5
I disagreed with most of the discussion of his form in this thread, so I watched a few Cameron highlight reels from high school. It seems like his release has gotten a lot slower since then. His form isn't exactly textbook either. No lift on his jumper. We're not talking about Hollis Thompson here. I do agree with OP's point that he probably shouldn't have been on the floor yesterday, though, and was surprised he got in. I would have, and III eventually did, just run the six-man rotation of DSR, Tre, hobbled Bowen, Copeland, Hopkins, and Smith into the ground. "Hobbled Bowen" was unable to play after the injury, so not an option. Going with 5 guys - including Josh and Hop together for the rest of the game - would be disastrous. We needed somebody to buy 3-4 minutes, Reggie was our choice, even if it was going to be a negative. Sometimes you have to coach with the rest of the game in mind. Rest of the season, and RC's career as well. Just please, give him a few minutes in the first half or a blowout, but not in crunch time.
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Post by hoyasaxa18 on Jan 25, 2015 14:35:04 GMT -5
Please tell us who these other options at the 2/3 were at that point in the game? I really don't think this should be particularly hard to understand. There are nine guys ahead of Cameron. If two of them are hurt, there are seven. If one of those is in foul trouble, there are six. You need five guys on the court at the same time. It can be done. Some teams do it all season long. But you're missing the point. I already conceded that it's reasonable to think using him in that situation is justified. (I don't concede that you have to, however, which is what you and others seem to keep insisting.) So what am I arguing? I'm arguing that a few more minutes out of a tired DSR or a Tre Campbell who just took a bad shot or a Paul White with four fouls—or whatever—might be a better option than putting in a guy who you can be fairly sure will give away a point a minute. Let's not forget that there are several other guys on the bench who don't get minutes in these situations. Why is Reggie Cameron so blessed to have a right to minutes in important situations and they're not? Don't Riyan Williams and Tre Mourning and Bradley Hayes also go to class and practice every day? Don't they deserve minutes in crucial spots too? Why are you throwing them under the bus? Why all the hyperbole? Don't you think before you post? Are you a complete idiot?We have officially found the line. I think this thread should be closed.
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njhoya78
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by njhoya78 on Jan 25, 2015 14:45:18 GMT -5
Why is this kid getting minutes? There was a sequence midway through the second half against Marquette, shortly after Cameron was put in, during which (1) he looks the other way as his guy goes right by him for a layup, then on the other end (2) he front-rims a quick three and (3) stands around as the rebounder outlets to his man for one of Marquette's only transition buckets of the afternoon. And that's pretty typical. I watched every minute of Bennimon's and Mescheriakov's uniquely distinguished careers at G'town, and I've never seen a Hoya who has more definitively earned a spot at the end of the bench. The kid is 100% useless (and often worse) on both ends of the floor. Please, someone, tell me why this team needs a three who is unacquainted with the concept of defense and whose offensive skillset consists solely of jumpers that would have been perfect if only the NCAA hadn't moved the three-point line back by six inches a few a years ago. No, you didn't bash him at all. Not one bit.
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DanMcQ
Moderator
Posts: 30,614
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Post by DanMcQ on Jan 25, 2015 14:50:37 GMT -5
MOD NOTE: Not closing the thread, but the discussion around Cameron's minutes here has been fully fleshed out and can stop here.
Note also that asking another poster if s/he is an idiot or calling a player "100% useless" or the like will risk post deletion.
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