sleepy
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Post by sleepy on Mar 13, 2014 14:42:19 GMT -5
Ugh, I guess seeing Copeland less than White gave me higher hopes for him at the 3 and biased me towards White at the 4. Now I'm worried about the 3,4, and 5 spots for next year. Lovely.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Mar 13, 2014 14:49:33 GMT -5
Here’s one of my main questions for next season: how many guys are such offensive liabilities that they won’t have to be guarded closely when on the floor? Another way of asking it is how many guys can get buckets on their own and are not relying strictly on an offensive system to get them baskets.
Here are the guys that I know (or based upon rep) are a threat to score : DSR Josh Paul White Coepland LJ Peak
Add Jabril if he has turned a corner and is now respectable enough from three-point land. Add Bowen if he returns because he has shown he can score and create outside of a strict offensive structure (great finisher too when getting to the rack). If he can remain respectable from three as he did during BE play that would be a boost. Cameron is a tough one to gauge. Surely he has to be guarded closely by defenses because he is a spot-up shooter (whom I’m assuming will shoot much better next year). He has to demonstrate that he can create on his own via drives to the basket or pull-up jumpers when defender’s crowd him. He did that only rarely this season so it is up to him to add that to his game. Hopkins has only proven he can score one out of every four games even though he has one reliable go-to-move in the paint. He is capable of hitting a jumper but rarely takes them which means he may have little confidence. Tre Campbell reportedly has a very good jumpshot but that is to be determined. Yes, I’m giving his fellow unproven recruits more of the benefit of the doubt but based on their play this year I think that is justified. Moses, Domingo and Hayes are possibly even greater question marks (if they return).
So from where I’m standing if certain players return there should be seven to eight guys (and this of course doesn’t include any other recruits the staff may bring in) whom I feel comfortable with in terms of scoring, although granted the frosh may not all be sharp right out of the gate. There should not be games like this season in which at times the Hoyas put out two to four guys (for awhile we had zero confidence in Jabril and Bowen hitting jumpshots) who defenses didn’t have to take all that seriously. Maybe people are right in claiming that the team next season may have trouble pushing the ball up the court for fastbreak buckets, but when the team gets it into halfcourt, it won’t have to work that hard for good looks. Especially when Josh is at the center spot. If the team has struggles getting to 70 points in a game again, that is on III. Could still have issues with the halfcourt defense, but there is no excuse to have problems with the halfcourt offense come this time next year.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2014 15:17:45 GMT -5
Ugh, I guess seeing Copeland less than White gave me higher hopes for him at the 3 and biased me towards White at the 4. Now I'm worried about the 3,4, and 5 spots for next year. Lovely. Both guys should be able to play both spots 3-4… Not really concerned about those 2 guys, just need time to develop
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sleepy
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Post by sleepy on Mar 13, 2014 15:47:28 GMT -5
Here’s one of my main questions for next season: how many guys are such offensive liabilities that they won’t have to be guarded closely when on the floor? Another way of asking it is how many guys can get buckets on their own and are not relying strictly on an offensive system to get them baskets. Here are the guys that I know (or based upon rep) are a threat to score : DSR Josh Paul White Coepland LJ Peak Add Jabril if he has turned a corner and is now respectable enough from three-point land. Add Bowen if he returns because he has shown he can score and create outside of a strict offensive structure (great finisher too when getting to the rack). If he can remain respectable from three as he did during BE play that would be a boost. Cameron is a tough one to gauge. Surely he has to be guarded closely by defenses because he is a spot-up shooter (whom I’m assuming will shoot much better next year). He has to demonstrate that he can create on his own via drives to the basket or pull-up jumpers when defender’s crowd him. He did that only rarely this season so it is up to him to add that to his game. Hopkins has only proven he can score one out of every four games even though he has one reliable go-to-move in the paint. He is capable of hitting a jumper but rarely takes them which means he may have little confidence. Tre Campbell reportedly has a very good jumpshot but that is to be determined. Yes, I’m giving his fellow unproven recruits more of the benefit of the doubt but based on their play this year I think that is justified. Moses, Domingo and Hayes are possibly even greater question marks (if they return). So from where I’m standing if certain players return there should be seven to eight guys (and this of course doesn’t include any other recruits the staff may bring in) whom I feel comfortable with in terms of scoring, although granted the frosh may not all be sharp right out of the gate. There should not be games like this season in which at times the Hoyas put out two to four guys (for awhile we had zero confidence in Jabril and Bowen hitting jumpshots) who defenses didn’t have to take all that seriously. Maybe people are right in claiming that the team next season may have trouble pushing the ball up the court for fastbreak buckets, but when the team gets it into halfcourt, it won’t have to work that hard for good looks. Especially when Josh is at the center spot. If the team has struggles getting to 70 points in a game again, that is on III. Could still have issues with the halfcourt defense, but there is no excuse to have problems with the halfcourt offense come this time next year. IDK, I'm very hesitant assuming any freshman is going to be a definite threat to score let alone 3. I'd have DSR on that list and put everyone else in the maybe category(Smith for maybe being back). Next year will be a rebuilding year and hopefully we will get our freshman enough time to develop into legitimate threats for the following year. What makes me excited about this class is that we can go back to having a good defensive team again and actually be able to play an effective 2-3 zone. DSR, Trawick, Copeland, White, Hopkins is going to a tough line-up to score against in a zone. And if we aren't playing zone 95% of the time next year, III needs a lobotomy.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Mar 13, 2014 16:22:39 GMT -5
Here’s one of my main questions for next season: how many guys are such offensive liabilities that they won’t have to be guarded closely when on the floor? Another way of asking it is how many guys can get buckets on their own and are not relying strictly on an offensive system to get them baskets. Here are the guys that I know (or based upon rep) are a threat to score : DSR Josh Paul White Coepland LJ Peak Add Jabril if he has turned a corner and is now respectable enough from three-point land. Add Bowen if he returns because he has shown he can score and create outside of a strict offensive structure (great finisher too when getting to the rack). If he can remain respectable from three as he did during BE play that would be a boost. Cameron is a tough one to gauge. Surely he has to be guarded closely by defenses because he is a spot-up shooter (whom I’m assuming will shoot much better next year). He has to demonstrate that he can create on his own via drives to the basket or pull-up jumpers when defender’s crowd him. He did that only rarely this season so it is up to him to add that to his game. Hopkins has only proven he can score one out of every four games even though he has one reliable go-to-move in the paint. He is capable of hitting a jumper but rarely takes them which means he may have little confidence. Tre Campbell reportedly has a very good jumpshot but that is to be determined. Yes, I’m giving his fellow unproven recruits more of the benefit of the doubt but based on their play this year I think that is justified. Moses, Domingo and Hayes are possibly even greater question marks (if they return). So from where I’m standing if certain players return there should be seven to eight guys (and this of course doesn’t include any other recruits the staff may bring in) whom I feel comfortable with in terms of scoring, although granted the frosh may not all be sharp right out of the gate. There should not be games like this season in which at times the Hoyas put out two to four guys (for awhile we had zero confidence in Jabril and Bowen hitting jumpshots) who defenses didn’t have to take all that seriously. Maybe people are right in claiming that the team next season may have trouble pushing the ball up the court for fastbreak buckets, but when the team gets it into halfcourt, it won’t have to work that hard for good looks. Especially when Josh is at the center spot. If the team has struggles getting to 70 points in a game again, that is on III. Could still have issues with the halfcourt defense, but there is no excuse to have problems with the halfcourt offense come this time next year. IDK, I'm very hesitant assuming any freshman is going to be a definite threat to score let alone 3. I'd have DSR on that list and put everyone else in the maybe category(Smith for maybe being back). Next year will be a rebuilding year and hopefully we will get our freshman enough time to develop into legitimate threats for the following year.
What makes me excited about this class is that we can go back to having a good defensive team again and actually be able to play an effective 2-3 zone. DSR, Trawick, Copeland, White, Hopkins is going to a tough line-up to score against in a zone. And if we aren't playing zone 95% of the time next year, III needs a lobotomy. I feel the exact same way Sleepy.. Need to get the freshman as much PT as possible..
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Post by HoyasAreHungry on Mar 13, 2014 16:38:46 GMT -5
Freshmen who have legitimate talent can and will contribute. DSR, Otto, Whitt etc etc. This class does have that talent. I'm excited for next year. They are going to get thrown right into the mix. We're going to have some growing pains sure, but we are a a much more dangerous team next year for sure
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sleepy
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Post by sleepy on Mar 13, 2014 16:59:49 GMT -5
Freshmen who have legitimate talent can and will contribute. DSR, Otto, Whitt etc etc. This class does have that talent. I'm excited for next year. They are going to get thrown right into the mix. We're going to have some growing pains sure, but we are a a much more dangerous team next year for sure Not saying they can't contribute, just that the level of contribution we will need is higher than any freshman contribution we've ever gotten under III, and we'd need it from multiple players. I think we will be dangerous in the sense we will have a higher ceiling but I don't think we will be consistent enough to really do any damage and think we'll end up on the bubble again. Hopefully the right side of it but my world won't end if its the wrong side.
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Post by johnnysnowplow on Mar 13, 2014 17:15:31 GMT -5
Freshmen who have legitimate talent can and will contribute. DSR, Otto, Whitt etc etc. This class does have that talent. I'm excited for next year. They are going to get thrown right into the mix. We're going to have some growing pains sure, but we are a a much more dangerous team next year for sure Not saying they can't contribute, just that the level of contribution we will need is higher than any freshman contribution we've ever gotten under III, and we'd need it from multiple players. I think we will be dangerous in the sense we will have a higher ceiling but I don't think we will be consistent enough to really do any damage and think we'll end up on the bubble again. Hopefully the right side of it but my world won't end if its the wrong side. Again, we almost made the tournament this year with the steaming pile of garbage we trotted out there night after night. Yes, Markel's contributions will be a significant loss, but aside from him, do the freshmen really need to be THAT good to surpass the contributions of many of the regulars on this year's team? And with Smith back (which I think is pretty likely), even less so.
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sleepy
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Post by sleepy on Mar 13, 2014 17:29:17 GMT -5
Not saying they can't contribute, just that the level of contribution we will need is higher than any freshman contribution we've ever gotten under III, and we'd need it from multiple players. I think we will be dangerous in the sense we will have a higher ceiling but I don't think we will be consistent enough to really do any damage and think we'll end up on the bubble again. Hopefully the right side of it but my world won't end if its the wrong side. Again, we almost made the tournament this year with the steaming pile of garbage we trotted out there night after night. Yes, Markel's contributions will be a significant loss, but aside from him, do the freshmen really need to be THAT good to surpass the contributions of many of the regulars on this year's team? And with Smith back (which I think is pretty likely), even less so. That is definitely valid but I just don't think it's a zero sum game. Maybe it is as simple as better players= better team= more wins= tournament appearance. I think we will be a better team and much more enjoyable to watch, but I think we have enough flaws that making the tournament would be surpassing my expectations. Our 2009 team was far more talented than this one and they were further off the bubble than us. With the same roster as last year minus one amazing player we were a top 2 seed and won the Big East. Maybe next year we don't win any marquee games, or can't close out any games, or fall apart down the stretch after a solid season because our freshman all hit the freshman wall in February. I think there a lot of scenarios where we are a better team doesn't make the tournament.
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Post by HoyasAreHungry on Mar 13, 2014 17:37:11 GMT -5
I'm not saying we're a lock for the tournament. It's really impossible to say how we'll do until the freshman roll out the ball during the actual regular season. I think we'll definitely have ups and downs. The one thing I think we do have though is a mix of talented frosh and veteran contributors. DSR is obviously the go to guy next year. He'll be a junior. Smith like it or not assuming he's back which there is every indication he will be (god help us) will be a huge (pun intended) focal point as well. The difference is, though, that while we will rely on those two to score, the freshman just need to be able to be good enough to be guarded to keep teams honest. All teams had to do this year was sag off on 3 guys at a time and clog up or help on D with Markel and DSR. That being said, I totally agree that this doesn't equal tourney birth, I'm just optimistic about it. Fair?
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3xhoya
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Post by 3xhoya on Mar 13, 2014 19:18:50 GMT -5
Teams all over the country have freshman who make large contributions, why is it so difficult for ours to do the same? Put them out there to play see what they can do. I don't want to hear "so and so hasn't learned the system well enough yet, he's not that impressive in practice....." who cares? Let's see what they can do. Is it really that hard to believe that the combo of LJ, Cope and White can't average 24ish points a game? That would be a huge plus compared to what we had this year.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Mar 13, 2014 20:09:34 GMT -5
Teams all over the country have freshman who make large contributions, why is it so difficult for ours to do the same? Put them out there to play see what they can do. I don't want to hear "so and so hasn't learned the system well enough yet, he's not that impressive in practice....." who cares? Let's see what they can do. Is it really that hard to believe that the combo of LJ, Cope and White can't average 24ish points a game? That would be a huge plus compared to what we had this year. This.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Mar 13, 2014 20:49:39 GMT -5
Hopkins should be limited to backing up Smith. White and Copeland should get 100% of the PF and some of the SF. Peak and Trawick can own the 2 and the rest of the 3.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Mar 13, 2014 20:53:42 GMT -5
IDK, I'm very hesitant assuming any freshman is going to be a definite threat to score let alone 3. I'd have DSR on that list and put everyone else in the maybe category(Smith for maybe being back). Next year will be a rebuilding year and hopefully we will get our freshman enough time to develop into legitimate threats for the following year. Sleepy, once again I disagree with your rebuilding year theory. You don't have to rebuild if you return an upperclassmen who is likely going to be a First Team All Big East player and has a chance as well to even compete for Player of the Year (DSR), as well as return guys like Jabril, Josh Smith and perhaps Bowen who not only bring experience to the table but have a chance to be pretty good in their own right. Hey, before Jabril went down with his jaw energy I thought he was a lost cause as far as being a scoring threat is concerned. Now after a grest stretch of games he had played once he returned, I think it is fair that if that progression keeps up for him he could easily average 9 to 10 points a game next season. That doesn't make him an All Big East Player, but it makes him a credible option to score wouldn't you say? Not to mention that there is a possibility, a possibility, that Cameron, who started a number of games for the team, will take what he has learned after his first season and take a big step forward. I don't expect him to be a double figure scorer nor do I expect him to start. What I think has a reasonable chance of happening is Cameron being a guy who can provide some instant scoring by being a more efficient long range shooter. The bigger question is whether he can improve enough to put the ball on the floor a bit more when defenses take away the jumper. To be determined. And then there is that top ten freshman class to add along to all of that. And this is where we may have a misunderstanding. My initial post stressed putting out players on the floor who have to be guarded, who can't simply be ignored at times by defenses. I conceded there may be some growing pains with them. Still based on reputation there aren't any, no offense here, any Nate Lubicks who will float on the floor and look as if they want no part of scoring. We're talking about guys who based upon their history have the ability to not only shoot but also to put the ball on the floor to drive to the basket. I don't envision them lacking confidence. I don't see them remaining timid for an entire season. With DSR and hopefully Josh Smith around they won't have the burden of being the leading scorers on the team, but I can see them being guys capable of helping out with the scoring load by the time Big East play comes around. Screw the zone. Maybe that's why our guys can't play defense right now, they were allowed to hide their flaws in the zone rather than actively work to improve in those areas. Certainly the team will be better off using a zone defense much of the time, especially when Josh is on the floor. But playing it 95% of the time? What are we? Syracuse? Time to start TEACHING guys how to guard man-to-man.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Mar 13, 2014 20:54:29 GMT -5
We don't need our freshmen to be stars. We need them to not completely crap the bed.
Give me a committed Josh, DSR, a senior Trawick, and a bunch of guys who work hard on D, the boards, and who can score just enough to keep opponents from COMPLETELY ignoring them, and I think we can be okay. As those freshmen develop, the team could be very good.
You can ignore Lubick at the elbow. You can't ignore Copeland or White. LJ Peak won't be dropping a dish on the break like some people who will remain nameless.
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sleepy
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Post by sleepy on Mar 13, 2014 21:13:26 GMT -5
IDK, I'm very hesitant assuming any freshman is going to be a definite threat to score let alone 3. I'd have DSR on that list and put everyone else in the maybe category(Smith for maybe being back). Next year will be a rebuilding year and hopefully we will get our freshman enough time to develop into legitimate threats for the following year. Sleepy, once again I disagree with your rebuilding year theory. You don't have to rebuild if you return an upperclassmen who is likely going to be a First Team All Big East player and has a chance as well to even compete for Player of the Year (DSR), as well as return guys like Jabril, Josh Smith and perhaps Bowen who not only bring experience to the table but have a chance to be pretty good in their own right. Hey, before Jabril went down with his jaw energy I thought he was a lost cause as far as being a scoring threat is concerned. Now after a grest stretch of games he had played once he returned, I think it is fair that if that progression keeps up for him he could easily average 9 to 10 points a game next season. That doesn't make him an All Big East Player, but it makes him a credible option to score wouldn't you say? Not to mention that there is a possibility, a possibility, that Cameron, who started a number of games for the team, will take what he has learned after his first season and take a big step forward. I don't expect him to be a double figure scorer nor do I expect him to start. What I think has a reasonable chance of happening is Cameron being a guy who can provide some instant scoring by being a more efficient long range shooter. The bigger question is whether he can improve enough to put the ball on the floor a bit more when defenses take away the jumper. To be determined. And then there is that top ten freshman class to add along to all of that. And this is where we may have a misunderstanding. My initial post stressed putting out players on the floor who have to be guarded, who can't simply be ignored at times by defenses. I conceded there may be some growing pains with them. Still based on reputation there aren't any, no offense here, any Nate Lubicks who will float on the floor and look as if they want no part of scoring. We're talking about guys who based upon their history have the ability to not only shoot but also to put the ball on the floor to drive to the basket. I don't envision them lacking confidence. I don't see them remaining timid for an entire season. With DSR and hopefully Josh Smith around they won't have the burden of being the leading scorers on the team, but I can see them being guys capable of helping out with the scoring load by the time Big East play comes around. Screw the zone. Maybe that's why our guys can't play defense right now, they were allowed to hide their flaws in the zone rather than actively work to improve in those areas. Certainly the team will be better off using a zone defense much of the time, especially when Josh is on the floor. But playing it 95% of the time? What are we? Syracuse? Time to start TEACHING guys how to guard man-to-man. Teaching a zone is more difficult that teaching man. It's not an easier defense than a man either. The problem with our man to man is that our guards are ALWAY too slow for it. DSR, Starks (verticle quickness), Freeman, Wallace. All too slow to effectively play man, which why all of our good defensive teams played zone of some sort. Our guys can't play defense now because they are physically too slow to stay in front of their men and too short to play zone. You don't play a zone to hid your flaws, you play it to take advantage of our number 1 advantage next year, LENGTH. And I'd HAPPILY trade our defense for Syracuse's this year. I agree with everything you said in the beginning. I just disagree with how far that will actually take us.
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hoyaboya
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Post by hoyaboya on Mar 13, 2014 21:25:11 GMT -5
If the new rules continue to be enforced next year, we absolutely must play mostly zone defense. I agree that the added length of Peak, White and Copeland make that a defense they are likely to excel in. Smith, if he's on the team, has proven conclusively that he can't play man to man. And We can't afford for DSR or Jabril to get in foul trouble, which Jabril obviously has a propensity to do and which DSR may be susceptible to once Starks is no longer around to guard the opponenr's quickest player.
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Post by johnnysnowplow on Mar 13, 2014 21:47:44 GMT -5
I think the personnel on the floor will largely dictate what kind of defense we play, but it's undeniable that in the past - including last year - we've ridden pretty damn effective zone defenses to lots of wins. I think the personnel next year lends itself to potentially being a very effective zone, but I do also think we have the athletes to lock down in man as well depending who is on the floor. It's a nice option to have and switching defenses is a great way to keep the opposition guessing.
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Post by daymondmyles on Mar 15, 2014 13:27:33 GMT -5
So if Moses and Aaron don't come back, we have 2 open schollies next year. I hate that we keep going into a year with any open schollies much less 2. Makes depth that much harder since you such a slim margin. Heaven forbid somebody transfers and then you could be looking at even more. I'd really like to see us get 1 more for this class.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Mar 15, 2014 14:15:44 GMT -5
So if Moses and Aaron don't come back, we have 2 open schollies next year. I hate that we keep going into a year with any open schollies much less 2. Makes depth that much harder since you such a slim margin. Heaven forbid somebody transfers and then you could be looking at even more. I'd really like to see us get 1 more for this class. I agree 100% Day.. I hope they push for Delarosa myself, the kid has much more work to put in but he looks to have the proper tools..
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