Z
Bulldog (over 250 posts)
Posts: 409
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Post by Z on Mar 18, 2012 16:51:25 GMT -5
Aleutian - being happy making the tournament most years is a pretty lame benchmark for a program as good as ours. I am happy to root for a program where the expectations are higher.
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kettlehill
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,146
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Post by kettlehill on Mar 18, 2012 16:58:25 GMT -5
I thought JT3 coached very well today esp. at the end when he lengthened the game alot. It looked like we were down and out and the fact is Jason had a shot to tie. I do question the early fouling of a confident team-why not get a stop? The refs, Henry's silly early O fouls, incredible and dominating offensive boarding by NCst. and we still almost pulled it out. Still sucks. Next step in the progression of JT3s program is learning to step on an opponents throats when they are down.
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harlemhoya
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 901
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Post by harlemhoya on Mar 18, 2012 17:00:35 GMT -5
Our game looked like a JV game compared to this UNC/Creighton battle.
We are who we are. No complaints.
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mfk24
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,759
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Post by mfk24 on Mar 18, 2012 17:07:49 GMT -5
Aleutian - being happy making the tournament most years is a pretty lame benchmark for a program as good as ours. I am happy to root for a program where the expectations are higher. And how good is our program? I think people have illusions of what type of program we are but we've only won 1 NCAA tournament. We aren't Duke, UNC, the old UCLA....We are most definitely a step behind these programs. For all the success Mich. St. has had in the NCAA tournament, it's not as though they've got much to show for it. I swear some of you are delusional. A quick search just shows that Mich. St lost in the first round in '04 and '06, lost in the round of 32 in '07. Made the sweet 16 after that, followed by the 2 straight final 4 years. But everyone always comments on Mich. St.'s tourney success without actually looking at the years they struggled....
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Post by nashvillehoyas on Mar 18, 2012 17:14:57 GMT -5
Aleutian - being happy making the tournament most years is a pretty lame benchmark for a program as good as ours. I am happy to root for a program where the expectations are higher.
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hoyabinx
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,043
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Post by hoyabinx on Mar 18, 2012 17:15:50 GMT -5
Our game looked like a JV game compared to this UNC/Creighton battle. We are who we are. No complaints. Just like 07? UNC looks like a pro team when they are playing a team with the same style, which makes them almost unbeatable (same of UK). When they play a slower team, they don't look like that.
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mfk24
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,759
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Post by mfk24 on Mar 18, 2012 17:15:57 GMT -5
Our game looked like a JV game compared to this UNC/Creighton battle. We are who we are. No complaints. That's because neither team really plays any defense. If you don't play defense it's going to look a lot more like an NBA game where defense is optional until the 4th quarter.
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dreamhoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,259
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Post by dreamhoya on Mar 18, 2012 17:16:32 GMT -5
“We had the right guys taking the shots,” John Thompson said. “They just didn’t go in.”
Maybe it's just that.
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Post by nashvillehoyas on Mar 18, 2012 17:26:02 GMT -5
Just making the tournament is definitely not my expectation.... A Hoya fan for 35 years! My expectation of Georgetown is nothing less than fans of UCLA, Kentucky, Indiana, Kansas, Duke, and North Carolina. We belong in the same conversation with these programs.
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Post by berrypatch26 on Mar 18, 2012 17:27:06 GMT -5
Forget talk about "our program"; any other year except for the present, or in this case, next year is all that counts. And next year looks just great to this old man. Hopefully, Hollywood will decide to stay on; if not, this is still a fine, fine group. Every Hoya should be proud to be represented by them; this Hoya "parent" sure is.
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hoyazeke
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,816
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Post by hoyazeke on Mar 18, 2012 17:27:09 GMT -5
MCI, ADavis would have an overall better game if he was at GTown. He would have less blks and alley oops but he would have a true post game. He would be a better facillitator. Remember ADavis was a 6'2" guard with only 1 scholly offer(Clev St) 2 yrs ago. He would have been Hasaan Whiteside if he had gotten his growth spurt 1 yr later................
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mfk24
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,759
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Post by mfk24 on Mar 18, 2012 17:47:31 GMT -5
Just making the tournament is definitely not my expectation.... A Hoya fan for 35 years! My expectation of Georgetown is nothing less than fans of UCLA, Kentucky, Indiana, Kansas, Duke, and North Carolina. We belong in the same conversation with these programs. Since when??? This is the type of delusional thinking I'm talking about. I'm a Hoya fan but seriously talk about Blue and Gray colored glasses. We aren't there yet. Could we get there....absolutely, but to make that comparison now is crazy!
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calhoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,353
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Post by calhoya on Mar 18, 2012 17:50:58 GMT -5
Strong season and great effort by this team. Unlike some prior editions the 2011-2012 Hoyas were very easy to root for and like. I just hope that in the aftermath of a disappointing ending that the discussion doesn't center on how this team overachieved this year. They may have been underrated but they did not overachieve. They proved to be a more skillful and cohesive group than we or the experts anticipated. The team and it's fans have every right to be upset over a loss like this. They played poorly for much of the game against a team that was playing a little better. It happens. That doesn't diminish the accomplishments of the kids or the coach. It simply re-establishes a level of quality to which then program should aspire year in and year out.
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deacon
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,850
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Post by deacon on Mar 18, 2012 17:57:52 GMT -5
I'm having a field day putting people on ignore today.
One HUGE silver lining to all of this.
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Big Dog
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,912
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Post by Big Dog on Mar 18, 2012 18:30:30 GMT -5
I can't believe I'm wasting time responding to this, but this wasn't some ordinary 11, but even if it was, you're talking about a top 45 NCAA team. Top 15 teams lose to top 45 teams all the time, particularly where the matchup isn't right. People who draw conclusions based on a 1- or a 3-game sample instead of a 90-game sample are called idiots. No, no, no. First of all, you're not going to get a 90 game sample on whether he's a "tournament coach", so sorry to disappoint the statistician in you. Secondly, he has underperformed seed expectations drastically. As in, how many wins seeds at that level get on average. Now that is a large sample size and we've drastically underperformed over the last 4 tournament appearances. Using Performance Against Seed Expectations (how many games a team is expected to win given their seed), Georgetown should have won 7.25 games in its last four tournament appearances. We've won 2. That's a difference of -5.25 games. That's not good. Your "seed expectations" game would be interesting if 1) it wasn't absurdly obvious that Davidson and VCU in particular were dramatically underseeded because 2) the committee isn't all knowing and is basically guessing, 3) seeding is based on body of work and tells us little about who may be the best team right now (ask 2011 UConn, the 2011 Packers, 2012 Giants, and 2011 Cardinals about this), and 4) every great team and great coach every single year loses games to inferior teams--that's sports. If "underperforming seed expectations" is a valid measuring stick of coaching ability, then Joe Girardi, Charlie Manuel, Mike McCarthy, Bill Belichick, and college coaches like Mike Krzyzewski have a whole lot to answer for. Anything can happen in a one-game scenario, particularly when you're a good but not elite team like these Hoyas. NC State lost by 2 to the Tar Heels a week ago, so now because Jason Clark's shot doesn't go in JTIII is a bad coach in the tournament? Its so absurd as to be self-refuting. Did you watch that game and say "boy, the Hoyas sure have the talent advantage"? I didn't. Talent is the closest thing to a superiority guarantee one can find, and Roy Williams and Bill Self and others will tell you even that guarantees nothing. I'm not apologizing for losing to an 11 seed, I just think we were a bit overseeded based on our talent and NC State was probably underseeded and playing better this time of year. In the long run, I hope and expect that our talent level will improve to 2007 levels so that we can truly enter the tournament with the expectation to do big things. Overachieving based on talent and ultimately going nowhere in the end is what Mike Brey does, and we don't want to be Notre Dame. But this year, with this team, based on one (or even 3 games), it would be ridiculous to draw any conclusions about JTIII as a "tournament coach" (whatever that means anyway).
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KirbyKeger
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,106
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Post by KirbyKeger on Mar 18, 2012 18:38:09 GMT -5
We're definitely seeing eye-to-eye there Big Dog. Its like people think that if we had a different coach, Ohio and VCU definitely wouldn't have been red hot from 3. Furthermore, I would love to have seen another coach try to take this team to a three seed in the tournament. III puts a competitive, highly-ranked team on the court every season while simultaneously acting as an outstanding representative of the university. To question his coaching ability because we've lost games in the most competitive tournament in college sports, where anything can happen in any given game, is ridiculous.
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Post by Problem of Dog on Mar 18, 2012 18:46:02 GMT -5
No, no, no. First of all, you're not going to get a 90 game sample on whether he's a "tournament coach", so sorry to disappoint the statistician in you. Secondly, he has underperformed seed expectations drastically. As in, how many wins seeds at that level get on average. Now that is a large sample size and we've drastically underperformed over the last 4 tournament appearances. Using Performance Against Seed Expectations (how many games a team is expected to win given their seed), Georgetown should have won 7.25 games in its last four tournament appearances. We've won 2. That's a difference of -5.25 games. That's not good. Your "seed expectations" game would be interesting if 1) it wasn't absurdly obvious that Davidson and VCU in particular were dramatically underseeded because 2) the committee isn't all knowing and is basically guessing, 3) seeding is based on body of work and tells us little about who may be the best team right now (ask 2011 UConn, the 2011 Packers, 2012 Giants, and 2011 Cardinals about this), and 4) every great team and great coach every single year loses games to inferior teams--that's sports. If "underperforming seed expectations" is a valid measuring stick of coaching ability, then Joe Girardi, Charlie Manuel, Mike McCarthy, Bill Belichick, and college coaches like Mike Krzyzewski have a whole lot to answer for. Anything can happen in a one-game scenario, particularly when you're a good but not elite team like these Hoyas. NC State lost by 2 to the Tar Heels a week ago, so now because Jason Clark's shot doesn't go in JTIII is a bad coach in the tournament? Its so absurd as to be self-refuting.. There needs to be a benchmark, and that's what the expected win total/seed I used does. It sets a benchmark. It's not one team in a vacuum, and it includes all the upsets that can and do happen in the NCAA tournament. Yet we have underperformed the typical performance of the average team in our seeding over the course of the past four years DRAMATICALLY.
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KirbyKeger
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,106
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Post by KirbyKeger on Mar 18, 2012 18:47:44 GMT -5
There needs to be a benchmark, and that's what the expected win total/seed I used does. It sets a benchmark. It's not one team in a vacuum, and it includes all the upsets that can and do happen in the NCAA tournament. Yet we have underperformed the typical performance of the average team in our seeding over the course of the past four years DRAMATICALLY. I guess my only problem with this is: why automatically attribute that underperformance to JT III's coaching ability?
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MCIGuy
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Anyone here? What am I supposed to update?
Posts: 9,426
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Post by MCIGuy on Mar 18, 2012 18:49:44 GMT -5
“We had the right guys taking the shots,” John Thompson said. “They just didn’t go in.” Maybe it's just that. Please, please, PLEASE tell me that wasn't a quote by III after the loss to NC State. MOD NOTE: I linked the video for the Postgame press conference in the articles thread. Look for yourself.
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alleninxis
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,216
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Post by alleninxis on Mar 18, 2012 19:02:31 GMT -5
It was. But, about the entire game, not the final possessions. Said he wanted Henry to get the ball late and make a decision. Thought Otto had a good look but turned it down for another that he called 'decent'.
but we should know by now, the guy isn't going to give an answer that is anything besides what he said.
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