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Post by grokamok on Mar 4, 2012 18:16:42 GMT -5
MCI's (most recent) point and RDF's point #1 (in his most recent list) are really part of RDF's point #4. It seems that III often doesn't prepare game plans constructed to address our opponent's specific strengths and weaknesses versus ours, instead relying on execution of our general (non-opponent-specific) game plan. To be fair, there is only so much one can expect a team to properly absorb/execute (though there is more that one can expect if one is essentially running a semi-pro program that doesn't expect players to be students first and athletes second). If one tweaks things a lot for each opponent, there is a danger that players will not be familiar enough with the tweaks to execute them properly. If one does not tweak at all, there is the danger that the team's preparations to execute the standard game plan will be rendered meaningless by an opponent's strategy. The optimum approach probably falls somewhere in the middle; I'd say that opponent-specific tweaks should be used more as the season progresses, since one would expect the team to be reasonably proficient with the standard plan after twenty games or so and there are diminishing returns at some point in the learning curve. Of course, if there are deficits noted in the standard plan, one must address those, as well, or one would be allowing the team to start off in a hole. To me, III could benefit from a little more attention to SWOT analysis, game theory, etc. I'd also like to see him be more active on the sideline, rather than simply using the halftime break to change things up. It seems that he is making in-game adjustments and is being vocal slightly more often as his tenure increases, but this activity still is frustratingly limited in most games. Our first-half performances have been well short of where they should have been, leaving us in difficult holes or leaving our opponents with opportunities they should not have been afforded. Regarding recruiting, and point-guard recruiting, specifically (can't believe someone started a thread titled "Recruiting" in the "Recruiting" sub-forum), I'd love to have an elite PG, but getting one that fits our system may be difficult (Did someone above think we had John Wall instead of Jonathan Wallace? Wallace was a 2-guard with a great head on his shoulders that allowed him to play a limited point role despite not being particularly athletic). I like a coach that can adjust to his players, to the opponent and to the in-game situation, but I'm not convinced that busting his system to attract a top PG is likely to work, much less be in the best interests of the team. Considering the challenges, III has done a very good job this season. I only hope that he continues to improve. (I'll retract my disappointment about the lack of COY appreciation he's gotten: hoyatalk2.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=25459&page=2#485112)
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calhoya
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Post by calhoya on Mar 4, 2012 18:31:37 GMT -5
our defense is 10th in the nation according to the best defensive statistics I know. It got *better* during the big east season, not worse. Markel was a four star PG ranked in the top 20 PGs in the nation when he was recruited. now he's terrible. as for Bilas' comment--he's also fawned over how beautiful the offense is and how well executed. I wouldn't be surprised tosee the team work more on fast breaks in future years, but this is a team that is using one of the more complicated half court offenses out theres WITH MOSTLY UNDERCLASSMEN. They need to spend a disproportionate amount of time on the offense and the defense. The fast break, ideally, would be the most instinctive--fill your lane, be ready--and thus the most sacrificable part of a practice. With limited time, you have to pick what you focus your practice on. the idea that III is stubborn just seems absurd from the outside. He's playing tons more zone than I've ever seen. He's used the press. He changes his starting line ups. He changed how and who he recruited. maybe there's something i've not seen but the idea that III thinks he is above criticism? completely unproven and, imo, a reckless and cheap shot at a man who has been an outstanding, if not perfect, coach. Fair comments. I agree that JT III has tried to recruit a quality point guard and I have not given up on Markel, though from day 1 when I saw him play on tape in high school, it has appeared to me that Markel was really a shooting guard who was being asked to become a point guard. Until a quality point guard emerges from Georgetown, trying to recruit one will be very difficult. My real problem with the so-called system is that when we get to the Big East each year it starts to be better-defensed and we need to have a "back-up" system to respond. When our offense cannot handle a pressure defense or we are unable to effectively score inside against an extended zone--for whatever reason--it is time to change the tempo. This is what it does not appear JT III is willing to try. Let the team run off of a defensive rebound and prevent the other team from setting up. CW tried this last year, but frankly we did not have enough athletes to run a quicker tempo. Not so this year.
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Mar 4, 2012 19:39:51 GMT -5
RDF early in the season you were heavily criticizing Jason Clark. You repeatedly said III should sit his a$$ down. You have admitted you were wrong on Clark. Now you're pushing Markel under the bus saying he should be recruited over. Isn't is even remotely possible you could be wrong on him too? Maybe he, also, will get better since this is actually his first year.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Mar 4, 2012 21:28:26 GMT -5
The optimum approach probably falls somewhere in the middle; I'd say that opponent-specific tweaks should be used more as the season progresses, since one would expect the team to be reasonably proficient with the standard plan after twenty games or so and there are diminishing returns at some point in the learning curve. Of course, if there are deficits noted in the standard plan, one must address those, as well, or one would be allowing the team to start off in a hole. To me, III could benefit from a little more attention to SWOT analysis, game theory, etc. Part of the problem is that III has stated before that when it comes to the offense he doesn't necessarily game-plan for an opponent's defense. In his view the Hoyas have to run their "stuff" regardless of the opponent and take what the defense gives them. I don't know about the rest of you but that sounds like he is okay with the opponents' dictating both the tempo and the opportunities his team gets on the offensive end. But since the guy wins the vast majority of his games I admit I don't have a whole lot to complain about.
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rpn6
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Post by rpn6 on Mar 4, 2012 21:36:59 GMT -5
Let me get this straight. Everyone here wants a pg who can break down any defense when push comes to shove, beat the press, make 3's at a decent percentage, hit ft's when necessary, and play good defense. In that case lets call down one from the nba bc honestly there are slim to none of these kind of pgs out there. All pgs have weaker parts of their games and jtIII is going to recruit pgs who can hit 3's bc that is an integral part of the offense. This means more than likely that he is not going to be a burner and will have an ok handle. I think markels handle is ok he is just timid and hopefully he realizes that his pt will surely decrease as time goes on unless he corrects this. But for everyone on here to be asking for a pg that quite frankly is impossible to find is unbelievable. And if there are pgs out there with said skills they are not going to commit to georgetown over a laundry list of other schools
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Mar 4, 2012 23:29:22 GMT -5
Let me get this straight. Everyone here wants a pg who can break down any defense when push comes to shove, beat the press, make 3's at a decent percentage, hit ft's when necessary, and play good defense. In that case lets call down one from the nba bc honestly there are slim to none of these kind of pgs out there. Nonsense. As long as the defenses being broken down are defenses of college teams and thus dominated by players who won't ever make it to The League, one doesn't have to get an NBA guard to meet these expectations. Let's put an end to such hyperbole. Speaking of hyperbole I can actually can see Starks developing into such a player eventually if he gains confidence.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Mar 5, 2012 0:00:53 GMT -5
RDF early in the season you were heavily criticizing Jason Clark. You repeatedly said III should sit his a$$ down. You have admitted you were wrong on Clark. Now you're pushing Markel under the bus saying he should be recruited over. Isn't is even remotely possible you could be wrong on him too? Maybe he, also, will get better since this is actually his first year. That is a flat out ****ing LIE. I have done nothing but praise Jason Clark THIS season. Last year I said he was awful and he was. He wasn't a very good player and didn't play well. If you can't see that, I can't help you. Markel Starks is a PG who is afraid to handle the ball against a pressure and there is no time for that. How will he improve this? When lights go on and the pressure is there--Starks is terrified. I'm not the only person to bring this up. I think he should be pressed to perform and told if he cant hack it, that someone will be brought in who will. I feel more comfortable with Trawick in the game then Starks--and Georgetown handled DePaul's press all game without Starks better then they have pressure defense with him. Out of all the Hoya players--he's the quickest to pass the ball--usually within seconds of receiving it. Why? What dimension has he shown? I was hard on Jason Clark because he showed solid play his FR/Soph seasons and flat out stunk last year. He has been outstanding and deserving of all the recognition/praise this year--and I've done so. I might not be liked by you--but to outright LIE about what has been said is not going to be tolerated.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Mar 5, 2012 0:27:30 GMT -5
I realize many don't care for NBA basketball or even watching other college basketball games but today was a perfect example of analysis that fits the discussion. First off, in Kentucky's game with Florida--Steve Kerr repeatedly noted how Florida had to push the ball and play fast to beat Kentucky up the court and try to score before they get set on defense because of their lack of size. He even stated the exact words: "When you are a small team--you have to play faster against bigger/more talented team because you will struggle to score against their set defense".
Fastforward to Michigan State-Ohio State game where both teams are more half court oriented. Both teams PUSHED the ball into the frontcourt and got into their offense. Now Aaron Craft is a point--but Keith Appling is a converted 2G-much like Markel Starks or Jason Clark and Michigan State really has no backup that gets heavy minutes. He pushed the ball up the court all game. These aren't offensive juggernauts--nor are they teams who like to fastbreak a lot-but they get ball up quickly to get into their offensive sets.
Why can't Georgetown do this? What's so bad about playing with tempo/pace? For the guy who pointed out lack of depth as reason to not play fast with smaller team--I'll point to Missouri this year, and most college teams who dont' go nearly as deep as they used to. I used Missouri too--because unlike Kentucky or UNC, they aren't loaded with NBA talent, they are smallish team and run all game. Georgetown couldn't do that in part due to fact they were not a team that was in good shape. Everyone laughed that off until they saw how quickly it took Freeman to get his ass in a gym and workout and drop 30-40 lbs for the NBA. Vaughn stated AFTER his career concluded "Now it's time for me to take things seriously-got to eat right and work harder". Still-what game stands out as the best they played while at Georgetown? Uptempo games and often had to hope Hoyas would fall behind to see them play at a tempo that particular group excelled--be it Uconn in '10, Cuse in '10 in DC, which led to Cuse win in BET, and Missouri game last year.
Tempo/pace isn't being reckless-it's being urgent/engaged. Versatility is great because it allows you to play any style of game and use different lineups. Now some of you guys think gameplanning is not possible. Why not? Is it really hard to see a game and say "Kris Joseph is killing us-we're going to make anyone else beat us". Yet who beat Hoyas? That seems like a simple adjustment. Press Breaker is awful with guards--why not use bigs to team with guards--like Porter with Clark and tell Starks to get the midcourt area and be prepared to receive ball and attack when he gets it? Why the catch/retreat approach when it's a complete disaster?
III is a very good coach. He's stubborn. A lot of the guys are and it's also why he owns a guy like Jay Wright-who refuses to adjust to what III does well and hasn't for years. Mike Dunlap adjusted but I can tell you for a fact-he was stunned that Georgetown didn't pressure them in game in DC. He even said "John did us a favor". Was he saying III sucked? Not at all. He's just surprised Hoyas didn't press when it really bothered them in first meeting and his team is limited at position and 6 deep. Which game was easier for Hoyas? In MSG or in DC?
Why must you make this offense like it's finding the cure for Cancer? You get same amount of points for keeping it simple as you do for making opponent look silly. These guys were recruited out of HS/watched in AAU where they just played and showed their talent. Find what your team does well/what type of talent you have and adjust to it. If you force people to do something because you aren't comfortable adjusting-then hire some assistants that are. Can't throw a fit when you are called "Princeton" and yet when openings come-you tend to hire guys with Princeton background (Brennan/Greenman) or have coached in that style (Hunter). I won't backdown from what I feel about this--because I was same fan who stated for 3 years--if you want to utilize the system III does--you have to be a taller team. Can't be small and play halfcourt or run Princeton. I was putdown and told same garbage without any proof other then "I don't like when my favorite team/coach are questioned".
You want to take next step--you need a different idea of what the value of a PG is and get one. Nobody is saying you need a perfect player-but you need a guy who can help your weakpoints and areas that opponents attack you--and that is ballhandling/lack of footspeed/decision making at the position. Guess I don't get why others don't want to see program improve and Coach improve? Know this much--you either are getting better or getting worse--you never stay the same in athletics and while Hoyas are better for being bigger, they are awful at handling pressure, and limited at PG position due to some standards that seem to be in place and haven't proven to be successful. Do Hoyas limit their own turnovers? Do they excel in transition? Do they have a guard who can break down defense and create shots for teammates? Is the guy who is a combo playing well enough/shooting well enough to warrant ignoring trying to improve those weaknesses?
If you think so, why/how are they successful? Nobody expects perfection but as a Hoya fan I've realized one thing--things at Georgetown don't change until it's hammered home about something being a hindrance. Even then it might not change--but at least someone will take some notice and help trump for the cause. Worked with small ball and hope it's same with failing to address PG recruiting in a manner that includes guys who might not be perfect. Which makes the fans who are engaging in thread funny-because what I/MCI are arguing for is a guy who isn't perfect and if anything--III has proven he tend to be quite selective/picky about trying to find a "perfect" player for his system. They don't exist--I agree--but obviously Coach doesn't.
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Mar 5, 2012 9:01:36 GMT -5
RDF early in the season you were heavily criticizing Jason Clark. You repeatedly said III should sit his a$$ down. You have admitted you were wrong on Clark. Now you're pushing Markel under the bus saying he should be recruited over. Isn't is even remotely possible you could be wrong on him too? Maybe he, also, will get better since this is actually his first year. That is a flat out ****ing LIE. I have done nothing but praise Jason Clark THIS season. Last year I said he was awful and he was. He wasn't a very good player and didn't play well. If you can't see that, I can't help you. Sorry, RDF, but you are wrong on this. You were criticizing Clark at the beginning of this season, saying he should sit, and I called you out on it. It was shortly after that that you started praising him and continued to be a strong backer of him through the rest of the season. When you started praising him someone on this board commented on the possible connection to my comments. My larger point is that guys can get better with time and with an opportunity to work on things. Jason and Henry are two examples from this year. Since this was really the first year Markel had with any significant playing time, I think it's premature to push him under the bus.
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calhoya
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Post by calhoya on Mar 5, 2012 9:45:59 GMT -5
EasyEd, I agree that it is way too premature to "give up" on Starks, notwithstanding a pretty mediocre finish to the season. I never gave up on Henry, but after his sophomore year it would have been negligent to argue that the Hoyas should not try to recruit over him given the results. After two years with Starks, it seems essential that the Hoyas attempt to find an upgrade through the recruiting process, while still hoping that he can improve enough at the position to justify the time invested in his learning curve.
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Air Jordan
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As the Hoyas continue their full court press the Kentucky Wildcats have went scoreless
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Post by Air Jordan on Mar 5, 2012 9:59:25 GMT -5
I will say this, we all like what JTIII has done with the program, after seeing it being a joke for so many years, even before JT Jr stepped down, and handed the reigns to Mr. Double Fist. I tend to think we all want the team not only to be good but be great too elite status on a regular basis. Now I know alot of intangibles to go along with that Facilites, System or what have you that stops this from happening. BUt I do know that JTIII has had opportunities to get recruits over the years and he did not accept them because some how they didnt fit his system. Go look at Semaj Christen, I think he sould of been great here, he is 6,2 but has a great feel for the game. But cant come here because you dont fit the system. I for one and I know RDF/MCI and a few others criticize JTIII over the past some of it legit some of it frustration, but we all want the samething. We all want JTIII as a coach and the Hoyas basketball program to take the next step to elite status, if your satisfied with being in the top ten for a few weeks every year and add that to the quick departures of the NCAA tourney then I guess you you have nothing to complain about. With the way we are going I just do not see us winning a national championship which in the end is what we play for, we are not playing just to be in the top ten, in order to get to that level something has to change.
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Air Jordan
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As the Hoyas continue their full court press the Kentucky Wildcats have went scoreless
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Post by Air Jordan on Mar 5, 2012 10:17:38 GMT -5
Well with Nerlens coming on selection Sunday this will be great, I still hope JTIII is looking for that next great guard.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Mar 5, 2012 10:26:31 GMT -5
I will say this, we all like what JTIII has done with the program, after seeing it being a joke for so many years, even before JT Jr stepped down, and handed the reigns to Mr. Double Fist. I tend to think we all want the team not only to be good but be great too elite status on a regular basis. Now I know alot of intangibles to go along with that Facilites, System or what have you that stops this from happening. BUt I do know that JTIII has had opportunities to get recruits over the years and he did not accept them because some how they didnt fit his system. Go look at Semaj Christen, I think he sould of been great here, he is 6,2 but has a great feel for the game. But cant come here because you dont fit the system. I for one and I know RDF/MCI and a few others criticize JTIII over the past some of it legit some of it frustration, but we all want the samething. We all want JTIII as a coach and the Hoyas basketball program to take the next step to elite status, if your satisfied with being in the top ten for a few weeks every year and add that to the quick departures of the NCAA tourney then I guess you you have nothing to complain about. With the way we are going I just do not see us winning a national championship which in the end is what we play for, we are not playing just to be in the top ten, in order to get to that level something has to change. So you know for sure that playing a different style or getting an "athletic, traditional pg who values the ball" will get G'town to a final 4 or a championship?
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Air Jordan
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As the Hoyas continue their full court press the Kentucky Wildcats have went scoreless
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Post by Air Jordan on Mar 5, 2012 10:52:46 GMT -5
Im not saying blow up the program man, I dont nobody here said that, what we are saying is that what we are doing right now, and the type of players we are recruiting for "THE SYSTEM" is only going to get us so far, like I said if making top ten for a few weeks through out the season is all you want, then hey everything is fine. I just want you to ask yourself, how is it that we lose to teams like the Bearcats, and the closeness of games like St. Johns this year, and the Seton Hall debacle. Like RDF said if you think that JTIII is about criticism then there is nothing to talk about.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Mar 5, 2012 11:16:50 GMT -5
Im not saying blow up the program man, I dont nobody here said that, what we are saying is that what we are doing right now, and the type of players we are recruiting for "THE SYSTEM" is only going to get us so far, like I said if making top ten for a few weeks through out the season is all you want, then hey everything is fine. I just want you to ask yourself, how is it that we lose to teams like the Bearcats, and the closeness of games like St. Johns this year, and the Seton Hall debacle. Like RDF said if you think that JTIII is about criticism then there is nothing to talk about. I never said you were suggesting blowing up the program. So if the team had gone 15-3 in league play you would be fine with the players and JT3 Air? Air why didnt you answer my question in the previous post? The coach isnt above criticism, I've posted a few times that he should use different sets in games to throw teams off. I also think he should have adjusted his press breaking strategy on Saturday.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Mar 5, 2012 13:26:07 GMT -5
That is a flat out ****ing LIE. I have done nothing but praise Jason Clark THIS season. Last year I said he was awful and he was. He wasn't a very good player and didn't play well. If you can't see that, I can't help you. Sorry, RDF, but you are wrong on this. You were criticizing Clark at the beginning of this season, saying he should sit, and I called you out on it. It was shortly after that that you started praising him and continued to be a strong backer of him through the rest of the season. When you started praising him someone on this board commented on the possible connection to my comments. My larger point is that guys can get better with time and with an opportunity to work on things. Jason and Henry are two examples from this year. Since this was really the first year Markel had with any significant playing time, I think it's premature to push him under the bus. If he had a poor game-he should sit--for making mistakes--just like III did with him Saturday when he was forcing things. But overall--I've done nothing but offer praise to him. I don't D-ride players--if they stink, they get called out and if they play well--they get praised. That's on a "what are doing basis" and not some love for a guy. It's like Saturday-I defended Clark because most of his turnovers were a result of poor press breaking from the coaching staff--the design is horrible and consistently fails Georgetown when facing it. Others called him out for being "awful". I can count 4 of his turnovers that were as much a result of horrendous design/team turnovers as it was just him. Did he have an off night? Sure--but he also found ways to contribute. Starks--ugh. It's just to point if another team presses--I hope he gets his quick fouls and exits the game. He's useless in that type of game. Has been for 2 years now. How long are you going to wait/not address this issue? You do know Nerlens Noel is quoted as saying "I want to play with a great PG" and has singled out players at Kentucky, Cuse, UNC, and UConn. Not saying you do this for 1 player-but players want to be in program with other great players--and Georgetown can offer that at the wing spots/upfront--they need to address the backcourt ASAP to take the next step.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Mar 5, 2012 13:33:36 GMT -5
I will say this, we all like what JTIII has done with the program, after seeing it being a joke for so many years, even before JT Jr stepped down, and handed the reigns to Mr. Double Fist. I tend to think we all want the team not only to be good but be great too elite status on a regular basis. Now I know alot of intangibles to go along with that Facilites, System or what have you that stops this from happening. BUt I do know that JTIII has had opportunities to get recruits over the years and he did not accept them because some how they didnt fit his system. Go look at Semaj Christen, I think he sould of been great here, he is 6,2 but has a great feel for the game. But cant come here because you dont fit the system. I for one and I know RDF/MCI and a few others criticize JTIII over the past some of it legit some of it frustration, but we all want the samething. We all want JTIII as a coach and the Hoyas basketball program to take the next step to elite status, if your satisfied with being in the top ten for a few weeks every year and add that to the quick departures of the NCAA tourney then I guess you you have nothing to complain about. With the way we are going I just do not see us winning a national championship which in the end is what we play for, we are not playing just to be in the top ten, in order to get to that level something has to change. So you know for sure that playing a different style or getting an "athletic, traditional pg who values the ball" will get G'town to a final 4 or a championship? Again--different style isn't needed-it's called being able to play anyway possible. I do believe Georgetown will get to Final 4 and eventually win a title if they address the PG in a different way. More weapons/ways you can attack a team, the better your chances. III has re-established Georgetown as a program that matters--top 20-30 program consistently. To take next step, you need to re-evaluate some things-and this is one area they can improve. Name one team who has won the National Championship in modern era that gets little from transition/nothing out of their defense? You can't. What makes a great team is great players-and I agree with III-you recruit players/not positions--but you also have to realize-where your great players are--the other spots need roles that are filled. Why continue to get beat in same method--by quick guards and without a guy who is strong handling the ball/create some offense and has athleticism to defend opposing guards? Nobody in BE utilizes his system and not many elite programs you'll have to beat do--so you need to be able to adapt to what they do and play their type of game--which will allow you to make them play style you prefer. Best way to explain point MCI/I are trying to make--if you are a championship FB team--you want balance. Thing is-balance in a game isn't what is needed-because some opponents can't stop the run, others can't stop the pass or if you fall behind, you have to be able to go no huddle/throw the ball. It's just nice to know that no matter how the game is going-you are able to adapt. The team Hoyas have is like a great option team. They run their system great--but when they fall behind or a team has answers, they often sit back and just try to excecute their system better.
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Post by hiyasixa on Mar 5, 2012 13:56:42 GMT -5
NEPSAC: St. Mark's 59, Tilton (N.H.) 53 - Boston High School Blog - ESPN Boston
wish we could get Eli Lubick at Georgetown!!
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hoyazeke
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Post by hoyazeke on Mar 5, 2012 14:49:54 GMT -5
It's not about blowing up the team. It's about improving the team. JT3 didn't blow up the team with the last recruiting class. If we were to get a Rysheed Jordan. A kid with mad handles and a suspect J. A kid that can drive and kick and is also big enough and crafty enough to finish at the rim. Why can't we coach his J up? CW went from an awful shooter to a really good shooter. Developing a great J takes 2 yrs of dedication. That's it. Look at Ty Lawson. Freshman year couldn't shoot at all, sophomore year J was a little better, and junior year you couldn't give him an inch. CW went the same way if you take into account that he lost his freshman year to the ankle injury........
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Mar 5, 2012 16:02:39 GMT -5
CW went from an awful shooter to a really good shooter. Fact: CW won the 3-point shooting contest at the McD All-American game. He had the stroke before getting here. It's not like he got lucky that day.
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