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Post by AustinHoya03 on May 2, 2011 19:59:51 GMT -5
A response I agree with. I find the wild celebrations really strange - simply not how I reacted to the news. I am glad they found the guy and I am not upset he is dead. Other than that, I am not sure how anything has changed in the world today. I will celebrate when people stop dying on both sides. Agreed, and I expect this reaction to bubble up quickly in the aftermath of those celebrations. It just didn't seem like an appropriate way to acknowledge this event. And don't get me wrong - I'm happy as hell that he's dead. Translation: you are allowed to be happy, as long as you do not express your happiness in a manner we find objectionable. It's nice to see that Puritan thought continues to thrive in America centuries after arriving on the eastern seaboard. I did not participate in or particularly enjoy last night's mass gatherings, but nor did they cause me shame or frustration. To my surprise, not only did many of my friends and acquaintances feel differently, but they found it necessary to rush to the Internet to "tsk tsk" the revelers. In the age of social media, it is axiomatic that initial public reaction will be followed by condemnation of that reaction. Thus, a celebration of justice and military success becomes "an enduring victory" for Osama bin Laden in the mind of some. No. Douthat has it right today: bin Laden died without any sort of enduring victory. www.nytimes.com/2011/05/02/opinion/02douthat.html?hpConsidering this, as well as the fact that America's War On Terror will not change much as a result of bin Laden's death, the celebrations were a bit over the top. My point, however, is that the reaction to the celebrations was (predictably) over the top as well. Collective memory is a powerful beast. I'm okay with America blowing off some steam. ON EDIT: Okay, that response looks a bit over the top on re-reading, too. (As well as a bit ironic/hypocritical, since I'm bitching about those who bitch.) Let's all have a laugh instead: www.newyorker.com/humor/2007/01/29/070129sh_shouts_martin
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Post by strummer8526 on May 2, 2011 20:06:26 GMT -5
Considering the nature of the War on Terror—i.e., the fact that we, in all likelihood, can never "win" it for good—I think it's quite alright to celebrate the most major victory that any of us may ever see in our lifetimes.
Credit to everyone involved—civilian, military, and both Bush and Obama administrations.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on May 2, 2011 20:28:05 GMT -5
Re: celebrations.
For the record and for my part, I did not mean to cast any judgement on others, just providing my own personal reaction that it just didn't feel right to me. At least in D.C., there was something just too "Hey, our sports team just won the championship" or "Hey, I'm on TV" about it to me.
But we each deal with major events -- celebratory, tragic, whatever -- in our own way, so for those who did attend and felt it was the right thing for them to do, I will not gainsay that.
Now....LET'S GO BRUINS!!!
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on May 2, 2011 22:47:39 GMT -5
More details on the raid. It was a lot bigger and more complex than we first thought. One story (NY Times) says a total of 79 special ops forces were involved. Another article says a total of 22 people were killed or captured. See below: Osama bin Laden's son also reported killed during raid in Pakistan[/size] Excerpt The US raid that killed al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden is also thought to have resulted in the deaths of his son, US officials said during a White House press briefing today.
Khalid bin Laden, one of Osama's younger sons, was reported to be among those killed yesterday during the daring raid by US Navy Seals and CIA operatives on a fortified mansion in an upscale area of Abbottabad in Pakistan, according to John Brennan, President Barack Obama's top counterterrorism adviser. Osama's wife, Amal al Ahmed Sadah, was wounded during the raid. Also, two of bin Laden's couriers, who have not been named, are also reported to have been killed during the raid. In all 22 people were reported to have been killed or captured. --------------------------------- Obama Calls World ‘Safer’ After Pakistan RaidExcerpt The tensest moment for those watching, he said, came when one of two helicopters that flew the American troops into the compound broke down, stalling as it flew over the 18-foot wall of the compound and prepared to land. After the raid, the team blew up the helicopter and called in one of two backups. In all, 79 commandos and a dog were involved.
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on May 2, 2011 22:58:17 GMT -5
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on May 3, 2011 0:30:26 GMT -5
I agree with many of Austin's sentiments. In the past, folks have not had trouble identifying whose lives should be celebrated (indeed, whose deaths would contribute to poll bounces) and whose not and making judgments about those who celebrate certain lives as opposed to others. In the end, I find some of the reactions to Bin Laden's death (and comments about how others are handling it) puzzling but appreciate that people handle these things privately even if inconsistently, it seems.
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TC
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Post by TC on May 3, 2011 6:55:28 GMT -5
Translation: you are allowed to be happy, as long as you do not express your happiness in a manner we find objectionable. It's nice to see that Puritan thought continues to thrive in America centuries after arriving on the eastern seaboard. What did you think of the UMD student body's reaction when they won the National Championship? Or the UCONN student body's? Did the way they celebrated reflect well upon them? Something like VJ Day or Armistice Day that brings the troops home is worth celebrating. This by all accounts doesn't finish things (although it will make continuing the war a lot harder to sell), doesn't bring troops home, and had more in common with people lining the streets to wave at OJ when he was in the Bronco.
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on May 3, 2011 7:55:14 GMT -5
And now President Obama will take a victory lap by going to Ground Zero Thursday. And the American people and the press will break their arms patting themselves on the back for what a few did for their country. Taking out Bin Laden is not the biggest thing in the War on Terror, it's merely a symbol. Time to return to reality. April was the worst month in Iraq in two years. The Taliban is preparing a new initiative in Afghanistan. In Libya we are doing - not sure what. The debt keeps mounting. Time to move on.
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theexorcist
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Post by theexorcist on May 3, 2011 8:06:31 GMT -5
Translation: you are allowed to be happy, as long as you do not express your happiness in a manner we find objectionable. It's nice to see that Puritan thought continues to thrive in America centuries after arriving on the eastern seaboard. What did you think of the UMD student body's reaction when they won the National Championship? Or the UCONN student body's? Did the way they celebrated reflect well upon them? Something like VJ Day or Armistice Day that brings the troops home is worth celebrating. This by all accounts doesn't finish things (although it will make continuing the war a lot harder to sell), doesn't bring troops home, and had more in common with people lining the streets to wave at OJ when he was in the Bronco. I was in the Pentagon on 9/11. I walked home with a coworker through Arlington Cemetery and tried to reassure her so she didn't have an asthma attack. The day after, 9/12, I took the Metro from Courthouse to Pentagon City (the Pentagon station was closed). At Pentagon, the train stopped and I wondered if something was going to fall and I was going to die. In the week after, the alarm - the one that didn't work the day the plane hit - rang twice, and I thought "oh, God, we have to evacuate, I wonder what it is this time". About two weeks after, our office went to lunch at an Irish pub near Union Station. On the drive, I remember looking at Union Station, seeing all the flags half-staff, and choking up. For about two or three months, you couldn't walk around in the Pentagon without feeling like you were downwind at a barbeque. For about a year after 9/11, every time I smelled that smell somewhere else, I felt sick to my stomach. A few months afterward, I dropped by one office that had just reopened. People were looking at the damage and destruction and softly crying. A friend who worked near the White House and had to walk home that day was incredulous about stories her college friends from Ohio told her about calling the police to the post office for suspicious packages, with people actually really worried. In some podunk town in the middle of Ohio, the magnitude of the attacks changed how people perceived their lives. A year afterward, I made it to the ceremony which celebrated the Phoenix Project - redoing side of the Pentagon so that you could walk through it. One of my strongest memories is of seeing a woman who was burned on most of her body during the attack coming back for the ceremony and going through a metal detector. Throughout all of it, for good or ill, one person was equated with all of that - on FBI wanted posters, and in the popular culture. He released videos that celebrated the mass slaughter of innocents which had occurred and indicated that he wanted to kill more people (I walked past the Pentagon Memorial last night, which has all the years that people were born, and one was three years old. That's right, Osama was happy about killing a three-year old). The organization he founded and led is responsible for attacks in Spain, the United Kingdom, Somalia, Yemen, Iraq, Egypt, Kenya, Tanzania, India, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Jordan (where they killed a wedding party of Muslims). Significantly linked organizations are responsible for attacks in Indonesia and Algeria, at a minimum. And he was brought to justice. And it wasn't Jack Bauer. It wasn't Chuck Norris. Americans got him. The pointiest end of the spear were elite Navy Seals - the guy men want to be, women want to date, and who you want your daughter to marry - but there was probably some fat guy who works for NGA who just did what he was good at. And lots of them worked together. And none of them blabbed - not saying anything at a dinner party or to a neighbor. Americans - lots of Americans working together - helped pull this off. Symbols matter. You may consider this an academic exercise, but the fact remains that Osama was, for ten years, the personification of evil. And, despite the fact that the US's inability to capture him had become such a running joke that the Family Guy Return of the Jedi spoof, during a pan over a desert, showed Osama popping out and saying "Still alive!", people brought him to justice. It doesn't finish things, it may make us worse off, and some of the kids there were mugging for the camera and being idiots. But I saw people dressed in firefighter gear and with New York garb on and everyone I saw was joyous. Not in a "cool, we won the championship way" - a "I can't believe this, we finally took him down way". And so was I.
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on May 3, 2011 8:29:46 GMT -5
Well done exorcist. One more bit of irony. The part of the Pentagon that was destroyed on 9/11 included the HQ of SOF - Special Operations Forces. Sunday, they got retribution.
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Post by strummer8526 on May 3, 2011 8:41:23 GMT -5
Great post, exorcist.
Ed, you again prove yourself to be a bitter, partisan hack. If this happened in 2007, you would be heaping praise all over GWB, Cheney, Rumsfeld, & Co. Your problem now is that most of us recognize their contribution and have discussed this as a bipartisan, national success. Since you can't make this political, you just revert to the old "but everything isn't fixed yet." OK, maybe it's not. But can't you enjoy a momentous achievement, even if it happens on "the other guy's" watch?
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hoyainspirit
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Post by hoyainspirit on May 3, 2011 8:51:01 GMT -5
If I'm honest, I do have to admit that seeing that seeing the celebrations last night really just felt kind of "off" to me. And if I'm continuing to be honest, one of the first images that did pop into my head seeing that was news footage of "the Arab street" on 9/11. I'm not trying to make some moral equivalence case here, I'm just being frank about the first thing I thought of. After some reflection, I thought that it was OK, or at the very least understandable, even though something like that is really not for me. But you know where I hope there were some exuberant celebrations (and am pretty confident that there were) where people were hugging and popping champagne corks, if any were available: Camp Victory, Bagram Air Base, the Pentagon, the White House Situation Room, and any number of military and intelligence operations centers. (Of course, at some of these places, a celebration would've happened a lot earlier than at others, I suppose). Not that this is just a huge accomplishment for them only and anything that we civilians can't share in, but they are the ones doing the work (and doing the bulk of the sacrificing). If I had seen something like that on the news last night, I don't think I would've even had that small moment of discomfort. +1. Exactly how I feel. Thanx for saving me from actually having to writing all that.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on May 3, 2011 8:53:56 GMT -5
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hoyatables
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Post by hoyatables on May 3, 2011 8:54:31 GMT -5
Per an article in the Post -- Ed Henry and John King were at the Verizon Center Sunday evening. Methinks Mr. King had a few Verizon Center brewskies before heading to the studio. Which should be understandable from the perspective of any Hoya fan!
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on May 3, 2011 8:55:44 GMT -5
I think Mark Twain hit the nail on the head:
“I’ve never wished a man dead, but I have read some obituaries with great pleasure.”
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guru
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Post by guru on May 3, 2011 8:56:09 GMT -5
And now President Obama will take a victory lap by going to Ground Zero Thursday. And the American people and the press will break their arms patting themselves on the back for what a few did for their country. Taking out Bin Laden is not the biggest thing in the War on Terror, it's merely a symbol. Time to return to reality. April was the worst month in Iraq in two years. The Taliban is preparing a new initiative in Afghanistan. In Libya we are doing - not sure what. The debt keeps mounting. Time to move on. As my habit is to enter this board via the "last 10 posts link" I'm often confronted with the posts that constitute this board's amateur hour McLaughlin Group. I have to say that most of the time I come down on your side of these arguments, philosophically. But this post reveals you as a bitter old lunatic. Cut the didactic BS - you think you're the only person who realizes the US still faces many problems, including terrorism, even after this act? If people thinking this is a big deal annoys you, you're better served to just keep your mouth shut. A reminder such as this is unnecessary and petty.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on May 3, 2011 9:00:37 GMT -5
I think Mark Twain hit the nail on the head: “I’ve never wished a man dead, but I have read some obituaries with great pleasure.” That's actually a paraphrase of Clarence Darrow: "the quotation actually comes from Clarence Darrow, the lawyer of Scopes Trial fame. Here's a fuller version of the quote, which appears in Darrow's 1932 work The Story of My Life: All men have an emotion to kill; when they strongly dislike some one they involuntarily wish he was dead. I have never killed any one, but I have read some obituary notices with great satisfaction." news.yahoo.com/s/atlantic/20110503/ts_atlantic/marktwaindidntsaythingaboutobituaries37279_1
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on May 3, 2011 9:11:41 GMT -5
Fair enough, but despite the pendantry, the sentiment fits.
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on May 3, 2011 9:36:41 GMT -5
Another really good piece -- NY Times - Behind the Hunt for Bin LadenExcerpts WASHINGTON — For years, the agonizing search for Osama bin Laden kept coming up empty. Then last July, Pakistanis working for the Central Intelligence Agency drove up behind a white Suzuki navigating the bustling streets near Peshawar, Pakistan, and wrote down the car’s license plate.
The man in the car was Bin Laden’s most trusted courier, and over the next month C.I.A. operatives would track him throughout central Pakistan. Ultimately, administration officials said, he led them to a sprawling compound at the end of a long dirt road and surrounded by tall security fences in a wealthy hamlet 35 miles from the Pakistani capital.
On a moonless night eight months later, 79 American commandos in four helicopters descended on the compound, the officials said. Shots rang out. A helicopter stalled and would not take off. Pakistani authorities, kept in the dark by their allies in Washington, scrambled forces as the American commandos rushed to finish their mission and leave before a confrontation. Of the five dead, one was a tall, bearded man with a bloodied face and a bullet in his head. A member of the Navy Seals snapped his picture with a camera and uploaded it to analysts who fed it into a facial recognition program.
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on May 3, 2011 10:16:41 GMT -5
For those who told me to shut up, why is the president going to Ground Zero except for political advantage? I've posted twice congratulating the president for a job well done and I meant that. He authorized the mission and was in the loop throughout and it produced the head of Bin Laden. But now it seems Obama wants it all to be about him. He seems to want his Mission Accomplished moment. And, no I would not feel differently if it were Bush so stop trying to read my thoughts. Bush should not have flown on that aircraft carrier but, instead, he should merely have heralded what the troops had accomplished in removing Sadam Hussein.
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