kchoya
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Post by kchoya on May 2, 2011 13:03:55 GMT -5
I think priority number one right now is that we need Hollywood to make a new movie about Navy SEALs. Steven Seagal on line one. ;D
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on May 2, 2011 13:05:22 GMT -5
Unfortunately, facts don't often sway those who will believe what they choose to believe. They cannot overcome their cognitive dissonance when the facts don't comport with their "reality." I have no doubt there will be a segment within the U.S. who will not believe UBL is really dead, just as there are those who do not believe that the President was born in Hawaii. Just like setting up a strawman to knock down. Have yet to hear from this mass of people who do not believe UBL is really dead.
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theexorcist
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Post by theexorcist on May 2, 2011 13:45:35 GMT -5
The problem with the piece is that it equates people cheering outside the White House to people dancing in the streets after 9/11. 9/11 killed thousands of people, many of them innocents with no culpability. Yesterday, one person, who authorized 9/11 and other strikes - in Spain, in the UK, in Kenya, in Yemen, in Indonesia, in Tanzania. People are cheering because he's dead. I guess the end of the article doesn't count: To me, it seems to be mealy-mouthed equivocation since the middle part of the piece did equate those cheering Bin Laden's death with 9/11 rejoicers. You can't bring that up and later on say "I didn't really mean that". And the US has never really been that much of a pacifist as Salon thinks. During World War II, even excepting the Times Square celebrations and ticker tape parades, people were really still royally bloodthirsty (take a look at some Looney Tunes cartoons and their blatant racism and xenopohobia). During the Cold War, there were lots of books, games, movies, and music that portrayed killing lots of Russkies that made lots and lots of money. All of these complaints that we were suddenly much nicer before 9/11 made us stoop to their level are bizarre. I don't remember people cheering Uday and Qusay's death, and certainly no one rushed to Ground Zero or the White House. People cheered Saddam getting captured - most reactions to his death - a brutal hanging that didn't seem well-planned - seemed to think that this was more of Iraq falling to pieces. People were happy when KSM was captured looking like John Belushi - they didn't hope for his death. Bin Laden was and is different. Under bin Laden's direction, al Qaeda bombed a wedding reception in Jordan and killed innocents. They bombed subway trains and killed innocents. They crashed planes into buildings and killed innocents. And, in doing it, he became the Bogeyman - careful while you're flying, or bad 'ol Osama 'll get you! Up until at least two months after Tora Bora, bin Laden WAS al Qaeda - he, not any of the hijackers, was the personification of 9/11. His videos made him the face of al Qaeda and of global terrorism, which was his goal. In wishing for notoriety, he became a symbol of terrorism and the evils of global jihad. He's now dead. Lots of people are glad that he's gone. I'm willing to grant people, myself included, one night of joyous exuberation.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on May 2, 2011 14:01:21 GMT -5
If I'm honest, I do have to admit that seeing that seeing the celebrations last night really just felt kind of "off" to me.
And if I'm continuing to be honest, one of the first images that did pop into my head seeing that was news footage of "the Arab street" on 9/11.
I'm not trying to make some moral equivalence case here, I'm just being frank about the first thing I thought of. After some reflection, I thought that it was OK, or at the very least understandable, even though something like that is really not for me.
But you know where I hope there were some exuberant celebrations (and am pretty confident that there were) where people were hugging and popping champagne corks, if any were available:
Camp Victory, Bagram Air Base, the Pentagon, the White House Situation Room, and any number of military and intelligence operations centers.
(Of course, at some of these places, a celebration would've happened a lot earlier than at others, I suppose).
Not that this is just a huge accomplishment for them only and anything that we civilians can't share in, but they are the ones doing the work (and doing the bulk of the sacrificing). If I had seen something like that on the news last night, I don't think I would've even had that small moment of discomfort.
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on May 2, 2011 14:15:07 GMT -5
Boz, I felt something off as well. I serve with many US soldiers who have done their tours in Afghanistan and Iraq and while everyone here is happy at the news, I would describe it more as a moment of quiet satisfaction. The death was briefed at our morning Ops meeting but no exuberant cheering, clapping etc. Mission here is fundamentally different (peacekeeping) but we recognize that the security situation in our region may get worse, not better, especially with respect to the US contingent.
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on May 2, 2011 14:31:07 GMT -5
Unfortunately, facts don't often sway those who will believe what they choose to believe. They cannot overcome their cognitive dissonance when the facts don't comport with their "reality." I have no doubt there will be a segment within the U.S. who will not believe UBL is really dead, just as there are those who do not believe that the President was born in Hawaii. Just like setting up a strawman to knock down. Have yet to hear from this mass of people who do not believe UBL is really dead. Some folks who don't believe UBL really dead . . . www.politico.com/news/stories/0511/54113.html
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CAHoya07
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Post by CAHoya07 on May 2, 2011 14:35:12 GMT -5
To be honest, I wasn't really sure what to feel when I heard the news. Part of me felt relieved and that justice had been served. Part of me wanted to celebrate. Part of me felt uncomfortable at the thought of celebrating someone else's death, no matter who the person was and what that person did. Part of me would have liked to see him taken alive and brought to trial (and apparently, we did give him a chance to surrender). Another part of me would not have liked to have seen the drawnout spectacle of a trial and the emotions that would be brought up, and is glad that he was killed.
Overall, I just knew that it was a big deal.
That being said, while I may or may not have joined the celebrations if I were still living in DC or in New York, I certainly can understand the emotion. I don't think anyone can really say whether it's right or wrong to feel a certain way, and to express it a certain way. as long as it doesn't target or harm anyone - it's emotion, it's hard to control.
Hats off to everybody who made this possible. I am really interested to see what happens next.
And finally, not to make this partisan, but in response to TBird, I think our president has a definite edge over our last one in terms of multitasking. He authorized the strike on Friday, visited tornado victims, gave one hell of a speech at the Correspondents' Dinner on Saturday, and oversaw and reported a huge victory in a monumental military operation on Sunday. I'd say that's a good weekend.
P.S. Despite my many differences with him, I appreciated Bush's classy statement about the killing of Bin Laden. I also appreciate his laying down the groundwork during his presidency to help make a such a successful mission, many years later, possible.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on May 2, 2011 14:50:40 GMT -5
Geez, Politico. UBL's head on a pike in front of the White House? Well now, that would have been something to behold. Umm, I guess. But two certified whack jobs and some guy I've never heard of are hardly the basis for true conspiracy theory (you know, the kind that, no matter how crazy they are, you can somehow get 20% of Americans to believe). As I said before, I certainly expect a few loners to be out there howling at the moon on this one. But I don't think it will have any serious legs...in this country anyway. In other parts of the world, I'm not so sure. How long do you suppose it will be before al Qaeda releases a Bin Laden videotape? You know he left some stuff in the can to be released after his death (or they've got a double lined up to record something that has information in it from after he died). I don't think they could release anything that would fool our intelligence services, but I'm sure they could "fool" anyone who really doesn't want to believe he's dead in the first place.
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on May 2, 2011 14:55:12 GMT -5
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on May 2, 2011 15:02:18 GMT -5
Note also that Obama played nine holes of golf after giving the orders and delivered the Trump jokes on Saturday knowing exactly what was afoot. Obama seems to have a quiet, resolute confidence that serves him, his family, and the country well.
I don't think there's much to the topic of what one should do upon this kind of announcement. There were perhaps more muted celebrations after the capture of Saddam Hussein and the killing of his brothers insofar as nobody showed up at the WH as far as I can remember, but to be sure, there was a lot of political-oriented talk of the kind that the political right seems to be poo-pooing right now and a deck of cards to guide us in trivialities.
As for the Administration, I think they've struck the right balance and have carefully avoided the martyrdom scenario even as the population generally maybe has not due to the celebrations. I liked particularly that they went out of their way to describe how the body was being handled, as that had been controversial in Iraq situations (Saddam, Uday, and Qusay Hussein).
My $.02.
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theexorcist
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Post by theexorcist on May 2, 2011 15:16:29 GMT -5
The deck of cards was done by captains - probably around 25 years old - in PSYOPS who were looking for a way to get out the information of wanted Iraqis to lots of people in both the US as well as Iraqis. It caught fire but was never specifically planned.
Might want to be careful on the burial thing. A few Post articles have already cited comments from Islamic scholars (including one at the University of Jordan) that the US violated burial code.
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on May 2, 2011 15:20:09 GMT -5
I expected there to be some controversy in any event about the burial, but that they made the effort anyway is more than has been done in the past. I have seen quotes from "radical clerics," which suggests to me that this is close enough for government work. Furthermore, that pictures have not been released (and do not seem to be in the offing) is more respectful than we've seen in the past.
The deck of cards did originate in the military, but were sold commercially as well. I found that tacky at best even if perfectly appropriate for PsyOps. It became a topic of discussion among the punditry and surrogates as to who was what card, when we captured the ace of spades, and the like.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on May 2, 2011 15:28:54 GMT -5
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on May 2, 2011 15:31:01 GMT -5
Note also that Obama played nine holes of golf after giving the orders and delivered the Trump jokes on Saturday knowing exactly what was afoot. Obama seems to have a quiet, resolute confidence that serves him, his family, and the country well.
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CTHoya08
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Post by CTHoya08 on May 2, 2011 16:56:41 GMT -5
As far as the celebrations go, I understand the awkwardness that comes with the celebration of someone's death. Even as I've spent the past 20 hours in a very good mood over this, I've also felt uncomfortable with the fact that something like this can put me in that kind of mood.
That being said, I have no problem with the people celebrating in the streets. In the current war on terror, we're likely never to see an event that truly and clearly signals a victory. There is nothing as clean as an enemy surrender that will be able to tell us "the war is over, we won." To me, bin Laden's death is the closest we'll have to a VJ Day in this war, one that has been going on for nearly a decade. So I can't fault anyone for his reaction, even if in the abstract it seems inappropriate to be dancing in the streets over a man's death.
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on May 2, 2011 17:19:53 GMT -5
As far as the celebrations go, I understand the awkwardness that comes with the celebration of someone's death. Even as I've spent the past 20 hours in a very good mood over this, I've also felt uncomfortable with the fact that something like this can put me in that kind of mood. That being said, I have no problem with the people celebrating in the streets. In the current war on terror, we're likely never to see an event that truly and clearly signals a victory. There is nothing as clean as an enemy surrender that will be able to tell us "the war is over, we won." To me, bin Laden's death is the closest we'll have to a VJ Day in this war, one that has been going on for nearly a decade. So I can't fault anyone for his reaction, even if in the abstract it seems inappropriate to be dancing in the streets over a man's death. While I understand and sympathize with Jack's position, the above comments are closer to my feelings. How would we feel if Hitler were killed? Same idea. This is a really bad guy who was responsible for all kinds of attacks -- embassies, USS Cole, Somalia, 9/11 and so on. And, for trying to take the Muslim world back about 1,000 years. So, great job CIA and Special Ops, and President Obama. And yes, I think it's ok to celebrate.
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on May 2, 2011 18:41:45 GMT -5
My reaction was Wow! This is a really big deal. Kudos to all involved. Then I went to Mass and said a prayer for Bin Laden, praying he was forgiven.
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The Stig
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Post by The Stig on May 2, 2011 18:44:16 GMT -5
I think one thing that's been underplayed in the news coverage is how *incredibly* risky that operation was.
On one hand, it seems like the easiest decision a President could make - you know where Bin Laden is, so you order the attack. But think about it for a second. You have American troops flying into Pakistan without the Pakistanis' knowledge, not far from the Pakistan-India border and near a major Pakistani military base. You have two choppers, one of which wasn't able to return. You have good intel, but intel is never perfect, and you're operating in a residential area. Oh yeah, and the guy you're going after probably has some fanatically devoted and top-notch bodyguards.
The potential for this operation to go badly wrong was pretty high, and the fallout from a fiasco would have been monumental. For starters, you'd have American troops on the ground in Pakistan for no good reason (at least publicly). The best case scenario would have been for the Americans to be captured without a fight, and that scenario is a total nightmare. It's only the best case scenario because the only other possibility would have been a firefight with the Pakistani military, which would have resulted in major casualties on both sides. The fallout from that would have made Desert One or the CIA contractor shooting in Lahore look like nothing.
President Obama deserves HUGE credit for having the balls to order the strike, and the soldiers that carried it out deserve even more credit for executing it to absolute perfection. It was the ultimate high risk, high reward operation, and the extraordinary skills of our soldiers meant that we got all the reward with none of the downside. Bravo, bravo, bravo!
Apparently Obama had the choice to order a B-2 airstrike with guided bombs to totally obliterate the compound, but he chose the special forces strike because he knew we had to have indisputable proof that we had killed Osama Bin Laden. I think today's rumors and such have proven that to be the right choice.
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on May 2, 2011 18:56:27 GMT -5
The Stig - I agree, but one slight correction. They did not know OBL was in the compound at the time of the strike, only that he had been living there. Were he not there, it is conceivable that our intel would have dried up, particularly if that courier dude was killed in the process.
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The Stig
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Post by The Stig on May 2, 2011 19:39:58 GMT -5
It's impossible for us to say what they knew or what they didn't know. Some people who know about these sorts of things say that the whole courier story could well be just a cover story, in order to protect whoever gave them the real tip.
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