Green & Gay named CO-Rookie of Year

[SirSaxa]

HoyaFanNY said:

weak weak weak. i'm sure the coaches know how good players in their own league are. they don't say, well rudy gay was higher rated out of high school than jeff green so i'm voting for rudy. that is ridiculous. they are not idiots, give them a little credit.

HoyaFanny, I have to agree with you. The BE coaches are very familiar with all the players in the league, especially the ones for whom they need to gameplan -- like Jeff and Rudy too.

Remember the story about Pops buying a couple of Taco salads for T3 right after a game because he knew he'd be up all night watching tape? All these guys watch tape all the time. Before a 'Cuse game, T3 probaly watches tapes from 4-5 recent games to see how they are playing, what they are running, who he has to stop. Coaches opposing GU started gearing their defensive efforts for Green.. then Bowman.

Same with UCONN. The coaches know what to expect when the walk on the court because they have had the other team scouted and because they watch a lot of tape -- and if they play the team twice in a season, they have their own experience too.

I think the BE coaches do take these awards seriously -- a lot more seriously than pre-season polls.

And as much as we all love Jeff -- Gay played really well down the stretch for a winning team. Sharing the award is probably the best solution to recognize two freshmen who stood out from all the rest.

[the_way]

Thats bogus. Gay stood out, because every announcer kept mentioning his name every 5 minutes. Look, I'm sorry, maybe you are brainwashed or something but, Green outplayed and had more impact in the Big East this year than Rudy Gay. There were not on equal ground. The stats don't lie and neither does the play in Big East play.

[HoyaSox04]

But you can't discount the fact that at the time when coaches are probably making the decisions about these things (the last 2-4 weeks of the season) was the exact time that coincided with Jeff slumping a bit (playing some of his worst games of the year) and Rudy really stepping his game up for UConn as they became perhaps the hottest team in the entire country.

This isn't some media conspiracy to put Rudy Gay on a pedestal above the rest - it's just the facts of life, _way. I was upset too when I first heard the news, especially considering how important Jeff was to our program this year. But you cannot tell me that men as educated as Jim Boeheim, or Jay Wright, or Al Skinner, are making their pick for BE ROY simply because of what someone like Digger Phelps says.

And, the fact is that I have yet to read a column in the last couple of weeks that HAS NOT named Jeff the BE ROY. The media has been telling everyone he's the ROY!

Your argument makes absolutely no sense here.

[HoyaFanNY]

way, you are guilty of the same bias you are accusing others of having. if gay played for us and jeff for uconn, you'd be arguing for rudy. you are not being objective here.

[SFHoya99]

easyed said:

SF - those are pretty strong condemning words about Gay. I suggest you retract them or furnish proof.

It's a joke. I thought that was apparent, considering it involves a prediction of future events.

[the_way]

HoyaFanNY said:

way, you are guilty of the same bias you are accusing others of having. if gay played for us and jeff for uconn, you'd be arguing for rudy. you are not being objective here.

This is dumbfounding. There is no bias here. You like stats, right? Look at the stats. Green vs. Gay. Is that bias!? Look at the games for the ENTIRE season in the Big East. UCONN is hot because Marcus Williams has really stepped up as well. Gay had a couple of games towards the end that he looked like a good player, but not an NBA lottery pick. I have seen throught the ENTIRE season, Green and Gay's play, and it isn't even close. Thats where I stand with this. I'm not accusing anybody of anything. All I am saying, is that there is no grounds to say that Rudy Gay had as equal impact as Jeff Green this year. The stats and ENTIRE Big East season says it all. We aren't talking about the last 2 weeks in the season where Rudy has 5 dunks in a game instead of 2. I give credit where credit is EARNED. Gay did not earn the right to be awarded co-Big East rookie of the year. I don't think that is an off the wall statement. Its actually pretty accurate.

[HoyaSox04]

NOBODY IS DISAGREEING WITH YOU!

[HoyaFanNY]

ok way. we'll change it from rookie of the year to 'impact newcomer of the year'. is that better? jesus, relax before you have a stroke. jeff averaged about 6 minutes more per game so that will lead to your stat differential.

[NCHoya]

HoyaFanNY said:

weak weak weak. i'm sure the coaches know how good players in their own league are. they don't say, well rudy gay was higher rated out of high school than jeff green so i'm voting for rudy. that is ridiculous. they are not idiots, give them a little credit. why can't you just be happy jeff won the award. i could care less if he shared it with rudy gay, ben gay, randall gay or anyone else. this entire argument is idotic.

Listen, we obviously will not agree on this HoyaFanNy . In my opinion, the Big East coaches have been recruiting Gay for 4 years all getting to know him and kissing his ass to get him to their program, meanwhile, we have a little known player, Jeff Green, who dominated and was agruably his team's most valuable player. Obviously, the coaches who thought it was close, would value the personal relationship they built with Gay over the years, instead of a humble, late bloomer like Green who they don't know personally. Besides, what incentive does a coach have for being fair? At least, a journalist has his career to worry about and needs to appear unbiased unless he or she wants to work for the same local paper their whole career. Meanwhile, a coach has no incentive to vote for Green over somebody like Gay who will be a lottery pick.

But to say that Green, who had the pressure of being the go-to guy in nearly every game for his team should be compared to a this glamour boy who dunks a lot and has the benefit of playing with Boone and Villanueva is comical. Green was asked to do more and simply delivered more.

The award is not for potential but what is. Could Rudy Gay have performed even better than Green if put in the same spot, sure, but it didn't happen so why should he get a benefit of the doubt! Green achieved more, therefore he gets the award. If Gay wanted to actually earn the award he should have gone to a school where he would have contributed more.

[HoyaFanNY]

little known? i was in a golf tournament last spring with su assistant mike hopkins and he talked for 4 holes about how good a player jeff was and that they were trying to get him to go to visit su since his junior year.

please give this bias crap a rest. jeff won the award. stop acting like he was robbed of something.

[HoyaSox04]

NCHoya said:

Besides, what incentive does a coach have for being fair? At least, a journalist has his career to worry about and needs to appear unbiased unless he or she wants to work for the same local paper their whole career. Meanwhile, a coach has no incentive to vote for Green over somebody like Gay who will be a lottery pick.

You know, I almost bought your argument until you made this point. And then it all went downhill...

Are you really meaning to tell me that I'm supposed to believe Jim Boeheim or Mike Brey or Louis Orr is going to mark off his ballot for Rudy Gay SIMPLY because of the fact that Rudy Gay could potentially be a lottery pick down the road? You think Norm Roberts is like, "Aw, hell, Jeff Green went for 23 points and 12 rebounds against us, and basically helped revive the GU program, but since Rudy could be a top ten pick in next year's draft, he should the BE ROY?"

That is the most absurd thing I think I have ever heard.

[Deleted]

Ah.....lies, damn lies and statistics.....

the_way:
If you want an "unbiased" look at the stats, here goes: Jeff had slightly better numbers, but also averaged 6 more minutes per game. Here are the numbers per 40 minutes:

Jeff Green: 15.4 points, 7.9 rebounds, 3.4 assists, 1.6 blocks, .498 FG, .392 3Pt.

Rudy Gay: 16.5 points, 8.2 rebounds, 2.5 assists, 2.7 blocks, .454 FG, .462 3Pt.

The point? It's a tie. Statistically, they're practically identical. If anything, Gay gets a slight edge (leads in 4 of the 6 categories). If you were voting on Most VALUABLE Rookie, then it's got to be Jeff, based on his impact on the Hoyas relative to Gay's impact on the Huskies. But "impact" isn't one of the criteria. Co-rookies of the year seems right.

[HoyaSox04]

And Cam(eth) layeth the smacketh down on the argument(eth)...

[the_way]

Cam said:

Ah.....lies, damn lies and statistics.....

the_way:
If you want an "unbiased" look at the stats, here goes: Jeff had slightly better numbers, but also averaged 6 more minutes per game. Here are the numbers per 40 minutes:

Jeff Green: 15.4 points, 7.9 rebounds, 3.4 assists, 1.6 blocks, .498 FG, .392 3Pt.

Rudy Gay: 16.5 points, 8.2 rebounds, 2.5 assists, 2.7 blocks, .454 FG, .462 3Pt.

The point? It's a tie. Statistically, they're practically identical. If anything, Gay gets a slight edge (leads in 4 of the 6 categories). If you were voting on Most VALUABLE Rookie, then it's got to be Jeff, based on his impact on the Hoyas relative to Gay's impact on the Huskies. But "impact" isn't one of the criteria. Co-rookies of the year seems right.

I knew that was coming, but I have never seen so many Rudy Gay fans from this board before. Its quite obvious you have been watching too much ESPN lately. Projections, projections per 40 minutes. Projections smear,smudge, and "bias" the truth. You should have done it for 50 minutes, and then Jeff wouldn't even deserve the award based on your logic, right? No matter how you slice it, Green is the Big East rookie of the year. I've seen both play in high school and Jeff was the better player. I've seen them both play and college, and Jeff is the better player. No projections here, just facts, please.

[FOTP]

I'm with Cam. This seems pretty fair to me. Gay really stepped up when Anderson went down as an impact player should over the 2nd half of the season.

Gay has a TON more talent around him. No one will deny that at all. However, the guy is not some stiff. He is a product of hype, but I really think the coaches base their decision on how they played against them in teh season and then how they had to prepare for a freshman.

Green was definitely the MVF and had to carry the Hoyas for the whole season. Gay never had that responsibility.

I personally would have given it to Green in a close ballot for the simple fact that we were 4 games better than last year and you can attribute a lot (or all) of that to Green. UCONN was supposed to be that good and you can attribute it to a number of things (mostly Williams and Charlie stepping up). Gay was a piece of the puzzle, but Green was the puzzle.

I'm not going to go nuts that they split the trophy...even Green said he doesn't care if he won or not. Let's leave it up to Green's words.

[NCHoya]

HoyaSox430 said:

You know, I almost bought your argument until you made this point. And then it all went downhill...

Are you really meaning to tell me that I'm supposed to believe Jim Boeheim or Mike Brey or Louis Orr is going to mark off his ballot for Rudy Gay SIMPLY because of the fact that Rudy Gay could potentially be a lottery pick down the road? You think Norm Roberts is like, "Aw, hell, Jeff Green went for 23 points and 12 rebounds against us, and basically helped revive the GU program, but since Rudy could be a top ten pick in next year's draft, he should the BE ROY?"

That is the most absurd thing I think I have ever heard.

interesting, you can allow one sentence to ruin an entire point for you, you must spend your life a very frustrated reader. I am also proud to be the one that wrote the most "absurd" thing you ever, I guess now I am famous.

Also, for NYFanNY, what I wrote I did not make up. I read the same thing on scout.com, if Jeff Green was not a late bloomer and a more prized recruit last year than the year before, take it up with them. All I know is he went from a 2-star recruit when he signed with Gtown to a 4-star Top 100 at the end of his senior season.

I am also not in the business of using projections, again, I deal with reality. You admit Green is the biggest impact freshman, but not the Freshman of the year? How is that not part of the criteria - who is being absurd now?

[the_way]

NCHoya said:

interesting, you can allow one sentence to ruin an entire point for you, you must spend your life a very frustrated reader. I am also proud to be the one that wrote the most "absurd" thing you ever, I guess now I am famous.

Also, for NYFanNY, what I wrote I did not make up. I read the same thing on scout.com, if Jeff Green was not a late bloomer and a more prized recruit last year than the year before, take it up with them. All I know is he went from a 2-star recruit when he signed with Gtown to a 4-star Top 100 at the end of his senior season.

I am also not in the business of using projections, again, I deal with reality. You admit Green is the biggest impact freshman, but not the Freshman of the year? How is that not part of the criteria - who is being absurd now?

Don't even bother arguing with them. Its obvious they are members of the Rudy Gay and UCONN fan club, because there is no justifiable reason why he received co-Rookie of Year award. This award is Jeff's alone. We all know the truth.

[NCHoya]

the_way said:

Don't even bother arguing with them. Its obvious they are members of the Rudy Gay and UCONN fan club, because there is no justifiable reason why he received co-Rookie of Year award. This award is Jeff's alone. We all know the truth.

I just enjoy arguing especially without losing my voice. I am not that upset over this, just shocked that supposed Hoya fans could not see this for what it was.

[HoyaSox04]

Don't you two get it? I'm arguing your point that the only reason Rudy Gay won the award is because of the media.

NCHoya - your points are ludicrous and unfounded when it comes to the coaches voting. I'm sorry if you can't see that, but please, find someone besides yourself who will back that statement up. Please, I'm begging you. I'll wait as long as it takes.

Both of you make ridiculous counter-arguments with no real direction to them, try to prop yourselves up by attacking others, and then you expect people to take you seriously? Please...

I'm glad both of you are so dim-witted that you think myself or HoyaFanNY or FOTP are Rudy Gay apologists and diehard UConn fans. I know in my heart that Jeff is the better player, and deserved the award outright. I agree with people who think Green should have won, I do. What I cannot stand are people who argue a point based on blind opinion without any statement of facts, nor can I stand people who make ridiculously absurdly false statements to try and win an argument, nor can I stand people who then try to deflect the heat off their own lies by trying to attack others.

Now, flush the Johnnies...

[the_way]

HoyaSox430 said:

Don't you two get it? I'm arguing your point that the only reason Rudy Gay won the award is because of the media.

NCHoya - your points are ludicrous and unfounded when it comes to the coaches voting. I'm sorry if you can't see that, but please, find someone besides yourself who will back that statement up. Please, I'm begging you. I'll wait as long as it takes.

Both of you make ridiculous counter-arguments with no real direction to them, try to prop yourselves up by attacking others, and then you expect people to take you seriously? Please...

I'm glad both of you are so dim-witted that you think myself or HoyaFanNY or FOTP are Rudy Gay apologists and diehard UConn fans. I know in my heart that Jeff is the better player, and deserved the award outright. I agree with people who think Green should have won, I do. What I cannot stand are people who argue a point based on blind opinion without any statement of facts, nor can I stand people who make ridiculously absurdly false statements to try and win an argument, nor can I stand people who then try to deflect the heat off their own lies by trying to attack others.

Now, flush the Johnnies...

Man, somebody woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning. This is not law School and no one is on trial here. So if you are trying to win a case, I don't think this is the proper forum.

The defense rests "your honor".