richfame
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Post by richfame on Dec 15, 2010 20:45:45 GMT -5
Tonight SNY replayed the Louisville vs Georgetown game from 2008 for the big east regular season title, which I believe was senior day. After watching the game I was wondering if that team was better than this years addition. 2008 starting lineup Wallace Sapp Freeman Summers Hibbert
Looking at it objectively: 1. I think Chris Wright gets the edge over Wallace. 2. Clark get the edge over Sapp 3. 2011 Freeman gets the edge over 2008 Freeman 4. Summers over Hollis 5. Hibbert over Vaughn 6. Bench goes to 2008 with PE2, Macklin, Rivers and CW.
I think it would be a heck of a game. Hibbert would dominate, but would the guards get it to hibbert?? Probably not. I think the 2011 guards would out shoot there 2008 counterparts. I also think this years team has a mental toughness or a special quality that the 2008 team lost with the departure of Green. Your thoughts?
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Dec 15, 2010 20:54:16 GMT -5
its hard to say until the end of this season.
i think 2011 squad must go through the Big East season to see how good they are.
hard to compare.
but just to think about it, i think the 2008 frontcourt (Hibbert, Summers, PE2, and even Macklin) would eat our current frontcourt alive. Rivers would give Wright fits on the defensive end. Wallace is just too savvy of a player.
i think 2011's team would have to shoot lights out from 3 and 2-pt land, like they have done in the some of the games this year, to have a shot (no pun) at winning.
but i think we will all know the answer a little bit better at the end of the 2011 regular season.
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lurkerhoya
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Post by lurkerhoya on Dec 15, 2010 21:09:47 GMT -5
I can't see any team with Summers winning anything.
The way Chris is playing now, he gets the edge over Wallace for his ability to dish. But Wallace wasn't intended to be the playmaker CW is. In a tempo game, which the 2008 team would have to play, JWall narrows the gap because he may only get 6 assists, but given the type of game it would be, it's relatively the same as Chris getting 12 in the 2011 version. Assuming a first to 60, 1-2 possession game, I want Wallace out there.
Clark has Sapp. Just a more consistent scorer inside and outside, and has the ability to check the 2 or 3 on the other team better than Sapp given his size.
Freeman 2011 obviously.
Summers over Hollis by default. That said, he's the reason 2008 wouldn't win. Really just no sense of how to play the game offensively or defensively. He might outplay Hollis, but he'd kill them with his inability (reluctance?) to guard the perimeter or rebound. He's exactly the type of player who dictates whether 2011 has the freedom to gun open threes or not, which is probably the difference since Roy in the middle limits 2011's inside game.
Hibbert, but not by a longshot. I suspect JV would be neutralized offensively in this one, but could dedicate himself to simply stopping Roy. He's the type of player who gave Roy trouble at this point in his career as a big and athletic, albeit undersized center. I could easily see him manning up on Roy to the tune of under 50% shooting and under 10 rebounds.
Bench is 2008 if only because of PE alone. I like Hank, but you know what you were getting from PE every time he touched the floor. The legit 6th man and 8-deep rotation is way ahead of where we are now, which is still figuring out exactly what the roles and rotation would be.
I see 2011 getting the edge. They're simply a more well-rounded team. 2008 version really had to be methodical: the PG was a game manager QB, not a playmaker, Sapp was a serviceable 2 but not a lock for consistency and Freeman was still developing. Summers really kills that team if you ask me since he was arguably the scorer, but because of his inconsistency he forced them to slow things down to keep him from killing them. Hibbert was certainly good, but he wasn't a consistent enough force to say that he for sure takes advantage of the matchup and tilts this in 2008's favor. 2011 is just a better built, more cohesive team. And not to keep killing him, but 2011 doesn't suffer from having a complete energysuck out there for 30 minutes. I think you're right saying 2008 lost something with Jeff, well, look who his replacement effectively was.
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RBHoya
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Post by RBHoya on Dec 15, 2010 21:27:35 GMT -5
I can't see any team with Summers winning anything. Except that the 2 best teams we've had since Pops had DaJuan as a starter The anti-Dajuan propaganda that some people like to drop in is ridiculous. He is not the sole reason for 2009 like some people would have you think. He was a very valuable piece of what we did in 2007 an again in winning the BE in 2008. People are really quick to forget that as they make him the scapegoat for the next year. More than that, I just hate stupid agenda-driven posts like yours. You could have easily made the same points without bashing DaJuan, but went out of your way to do so.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Dec 15, 2010 21:33:55 GMT -5
I can't see any team with Summers winning anything. Except that the 2 best teams we've had since Pops had DaJuan as a starter The anti-Dajuan propaganda that some people like to drop in is ridiculous. He is not the sole reason for 2009 like some people would have you think. He was a very valuable piece of what we did in 2007 an again in winning the BE in 2008. People are really quick to forget that as they make him the scapegoat for the next year. More than that, I just hate stupid agenda-driven posts like yours. You could have easily made the same points without bashing DaJuan, but went out of your way to do so. Agreed. DaJuan was a solid player for us. He just wasn't Jeff Green. But nobody is, and won't be for quite some time in Hoya History in the future. So, that shouldn't be a strike against DaJuan.
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richfame
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Post by richfame on Dec 15, 2010 21:37:23 GMT -5
In that game, Chris Wright saw no Game action. As I recall he got good minutes all year. What was the reason for him getting benched?
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757hoyafan
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Post by 757hoyafan on Dec 15, 2010 21:40:57 GMT -5
I can't see any team with Summers winning anything. Except that the 2 best teams we've had since Pops had DaJuan as a starter The anti-Dajuan propaganda that some people like to drop in is ridiculous. He is not the sole reason for 2009 like some people would have you think. He was a very valuable piece of what we did in 2007 an again in winning the BE in 2008. People are really quick to forget that as they make him the scapegoat for the next year. More than that, I just hate stupid agenda-driven posts like yours. You could have easily made the same points without bashing DaJuan, but went out of your way to do so. Damn!!!!!
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lurkerhoya
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Post by lurkerhoya on Dec 15, 2010 22:04:09 GMT -5
I can't see any team with Summers winning anything. Except that the 2 best teams we've had since Pops had DaJuan as a starter The anti-Dajuan propaganda that some people like to drop in is ridiculous. He is not the sole reason for 2009 like some people would have you think. He was a very valuable piece of what we did in 2007 an again in winning the BE in 2008. People are really quick to forget that as they make him the scapegoat for the next year. More than that, I just hate stupid agenda-driven posts like yours. You could have easily made the same points without bashing DaJuan, but went out of your way to do so. The two best teams we've had also started DaJuan as a freshman and sophomore, and in neither of those years was he the primary option, and usually not the secondary option. As a role player, he was valuable. When it came time to step up and be the leader of a team, he turned into get mine, draft-pick mode. The guy was a 6'8" athletic beast who when tasked with leading a team saw his rebounds per game drop by nearly two per game and his assists decrease when they should have been going up, despite an increase in minutes per game. The prompt was to assess the two squads. If you ask me, it's pretty necessary to consider whether arguably the best player on one of them would make a positive impact on the game, and if not, why.
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Dec 15, 2010 22:12:25 GMT -5
Chris was injured most of the season. He got injured right at the end of OOC play. He only came back for the BET and NCAAs. He missed the whole BE season due to his injury. He wasn't benched.
I agree with RB. People do realize Summers hit the game winning 3 in that game right?
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RBHoya
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Post by RBHoya on Dec 15, 2010 22:15:45 GMT -5
You just said yourself that the point of the thread was to assess 2008 vs. 2011, and that DaJuan was valuable on the teams when he wasn't tasked with being the leader. Yet somehow he is going to cost the 2008 team the game/is the reason 2008 wouldn't win? Doesn't compute.
Pretty much everybody on the 2009 team was either bad or underachieved to some extent, other than maybe freshman Monroe. DaJuan is not exempt and shoulders his share of the blame for that year, but that doesn't or at least shouldn't detract from the fact that he was an important part of our 2007 and 2008 teams. To say that he essentially prevents teams from winning is just silly because we had 2 successful teams with him starting and playing lots. The fact that he didn't not turn out to be a successful lead player does not mean he is a team killer in any setting like you portray or that he'd (for some reason?) hold back the 2008 team in this simulation. He didn't in that Louisville game the OP mentioned or at any point that year.
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Post by stafford72 on Dec 15, 2010 22:19:27 GMT -5
I don't know about which team would be better because of the higher inconsistency of the 2008 squad. I would definitely take this year's bench over that of 2008. I think many of those commenting thus far have a much too negative bent toward DaJuan Summers and contrastingly a much too positive slant toward the play of PE2. There were many games when Pe2 was basically a non-factor. Yes, he provided energy, but sometimes his shot was way off and with foul trouble and lack of playing time, his contributions were not always significant. The same unfortunately was also true of Macklin. This season thus far, we have more contributors off the bench that have been somewhat more reliable although maybe not as spectacular at times.
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alleninxis
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Post by alleninxis on Dec 15, 2010 22:21:10 GMT -5
The 08 team had plenty of mental toughness IMO. The Roy 3 vs Uconn, the Pat goaltend game @wvu, Louisville for the conference title, Jon's FT's @ Marquette. Biggest disparity between the two teams is defense. And Roy played a large part in that. Who wins? I'd side with 08 team. DaJuan hate
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nathanhm
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Post by nathanhm on Dec 15, 2010 22:23:46 GMT -5
2008 would win because that team was very good on offense and elite on defense. Right now 2011 is elite on offense and just above average on defense.
That being said I think this 2011 team has the potential to get much better.
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vcjack
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Post by vcjack on Dec 15, 2010 22:29:17 GMT -5
There is no way the 2010-2011 team would be able to contain Roy but our newfound press would have given Jon and Jessie big problems.
Another thing to consider would be that JTIII would really have to rely on Jeremiah to be a workhorse defender so the 07-08ers would be down an effective scorer.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Dec 15, 2010 22:38:49 GMT -5
Its early. But if 2011 keeps progressing then 2008 will have to play its A game (West Virginia Big East tourney semi-finals) or slow the game down BIG TIME to win. 2011 has too many reliable offensive weapons.
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FLHoya
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Post by FLHoya on Dec 15, 2010 23:43:50 GMT -5
You need the full body of work against a Big East schedule to get an accurate read on a team...the inspiration of the thread, after all, was watching the final game of the 2008 regular season. I would find such a hypothetical match-up fascinating b/c at this point in the season, I'm still interested in seeing the current team tested against strong defenses that could limit your quality shots. The 2008 team certainly fit that bill. (We should start a thread one day: most canonized and most vilified former Georgetown players. Even if you kept it to the JTIII era...apparently we have plenty of material. )
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Dec 16, 2010 2:39:26 GMT -5
Did someone really say, "Hibbert, but not by a lot"? I'm not even sure there's a point in refuting.
Hibbert might be the most underrated Hoya in Thompson-era history.
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richfame
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Post by richfame on Dec 16, 2010 7:36:40 GMT -5
SF- I agree with you but can I add Under Used? The potential was there but I think didnt get the ball in the post as much as he should have. Otherwise I think foul trouble and the treat of being in foul trouble hurt him alot. Didnt it seem like he always got that second foul at the top of the key on a switch and had to sit the rest of the half???
He is clearly better than Vaughn but I was saying would he get the ball enough to be a factor? Would he get into foul trouble? Who knows this is all conjecture.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Dec 16, 2010 8:16:36 GMT -5
Did someone really say, "Hibbert, but not by a lot"? I'm not even sure there's a point in refuting. Hibbert might be the most underrated Hoya in Thompson-era history. No, that would be Jeff Green. Our program hasn't been the same since he has been gone.
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rosslynhoya
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Post by rosslynhoya on Dec 16, 2010 8:57:04 GMT -5
Did someone really say, "Hibbert, but not by a lot"? I'm not even sure there's a point in refuting. Roy memorably dominated most of the high-profile big men he went up against (Aaron Gray, Thabeet, et al.), but frequently struggled against shorter, no-name/no-hype opponents. I think all lurker was saying was that Roy vs. Vaughn might be one of the latter. It's not an irrational point, at least not in a discussion of the 2010-11 Hoyas travelling back in time to play a younger version of themselves in 2008.
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