SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Dec 16, 2010 20:54:25 GMT -5
Looking back on it I guess having Green instead of hibbert would have made us a better team. True we would have had a big void at center relying on Macklin but Green was our heart and sole. We would not have lost to Davidson if we had green. We lost our mental toughness, heart and edge. I don't really know how you know this. Green was probably a better matchup against Davidson, but we went 15-3 in the BE. We were a better team with Green and Hibbert (and I do think Green was a slightly better player at GU), just because we lost versus Davidson doesn't suddenly make Green massively better than Hibbert. I'd say half this board seems to view the entire 2007-08 season as consisting of one game. It's weird to me. |
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richfame
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Post by richfame on Dec 16, 2010 21:30:22 GMT -5
SF- I guess that living in CT and rooting for the Yankees my whole life and following the nyc sports scene I have that winning is everything attitude at times. The yankees and there fans arent happy with getting to the playoffs, its all about winning the world series. Dont get me wrong I loved that season, it was a great ride. With every player returning minus green I thought we deserved a better fate.
Too your point, obviously we were a better team with BOTH hibbert and Green thats a no brainer. My point was I think we lost something special when we lost Green. I think having Hibbert gave us a more complete team with regards to filling out a classic lineup. Center to guard. But if the reversed happened and we had green and not hibbert we might have went further in the tournament.
I recall a year earlier against VANDY it was Greens game winning shot that got us passed that OH SH*T game. The past two years we lost to Davidson and Ohio. Just throwing that idea out there...
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Dec 16, 2010 21:52:38 GMT -5
SF- I guess that living in CT and rooting for the Yankees my whole life and following the nyc sports scene I have that winning is everything attitude at times. The yankees and there fans arent happy with getting to the playoffs, its all about winning the world series. Dont get me wrong I loved that season, it was a great ride. With every player returning minus green I thought we deserved a better fate. Too your point, obviously we were a better team with BOTH hibbert and Green thats a no brainer. My point was I think we lost something special when we lost Green. I think having Hibbert gave us a more complete team with regards to filling out a classic lineup. Center to guard. But if the reversed happened and we had green and not hibbert we might have went further in the tournament. I recall a year earlier against VANDY it was Greens game winning shot that got us passed that OH SH*T game. The past two years we lost to Davidson and Ohio. Just throwing that idea out there... I'm not saying you're wrong -- in fact I do think Green was better. But I 100% side with RDF on the "cinderfella" we got screwed theme, and Green's shot was, well, pretty borderline. I'm just asking if those things are the best ways to evaluate a team. Let me ask a question about 2011. How do you answer the 2008 v 2011 question (or any view of 2011) if: 1. Missouri's 85% FT shooter makes both his free throws instead of one. Are we so rosy? -or- 2. Hollis dishes to a Hoya who nails a game-winner versus Temple. Our we thinking BE Title and Final Four run? I mean, in the long run, the team that executes deserves to win. But if we have to play those games again, I'm pretty sure us losing to Mizzou or beating Temple are just as likely as repeating the original outcomes. In the end of the day, when we put so much on NCAA success, we basically are evaluating a huge season of work -- 20+ BE games, 11-12 non-coms but just a few moments at times. In 2006-07, we had the Green shot (which could have been called a travel) and a furious comeback against UNC (where one shot in or out changes that game). It was a great run, but it could have been two and done. It wasn't - I get that - but it's a thin line to me. It's not in terms of enjoyment -- but it is in terms of how good the teams really were. 08 was a really good team. It has a BE regular season title to prove it. (It wasn't nearly as good as 07, but it was better than most people think). |
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Dec 16, 2010 22:13:38 GMT -5
Thank you SF. I've made that same argument several times with people.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Dec 16, 2010 23:08:36 GMT -5
And to pick up on what SF wrote so well...without Hibbert the Hoyas may have had an Ohio-like outcome against Northern Iowa in the first round of the 2006 NCAA tournament. Hibbert absolutely carried the Hoyas to that win because Jeff, Brandon and Jon had off games. One could claim that Roy's first half performance against Ohio State in the following game also was the biggest reason why GU advanced to the Sweet Sixteen. So its not as if Jeff was the only guy who performed well for the Hoyas during those post season tournaments. If people want to keep referring to the Vanderbilt game they might want to equally look at the Northern Iowa game or the contest against Ohio State during the Final Four to remind them that it was not a sure thing that Jeff would always deliver the goods in the tournament.
I really don't mean to come across as if I'm slamming Jeff or as if I'm unappreciative of what he gave the Hoyas, but there is this revisionism among Hoya fans in which Jeff is presented as some dominant force. It's laughable for the_way to even suggest that Jeff is the most underrated player during III's run. How can one be underrated when almost everyone gives him not only at least his earned due but the most credit for the team's success?
There is no proof that if Roy had left early and Jeff stayed that Gtown would have been a better team. We can never prove any of this, only debate about it. We've gone over this before. Jeff was a very good player almost as soon as he put on the Hoya uniform. But the Hoyas did not become very good until Roy stepped up his game in a major way during his soph season. Without that improvement the Hoyas are never in a position to win Big East tournaments or make it all the way to the Final Four. In 2007 the team needed BOTH GUYS. So you take Roy away from the team and now put the burden squarely on Jeff's shoulders again then there's no way to say with certainty that the Hoyas would have gone 15 and 3 in league play. The one advantage I however will give Jeff is that he was the type of big man that best suits III's style. III, unlike his dad, often seemed as if he didn't have a clear idea of how to use a 7'2 center. However Jeff (and Greg too) was a perfect player for III.
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RBHoya
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Post by RBHoya on Dec 16, 2010 23:26:21 GMT -5
Yea. I'm Jeff Green's #1 fan, but when people talk like he had some magical X factor that Roy and Jon didn't have, it's silly. If the ref blows the whistle on him against Vandy, what happens to his X-factor then? Or if the refs call Davidson like a regular game, what then? People like to ascribe it to all sorts of "X-factor" type qualities when in reality, sometimes it's just a call/noncall or a bounce or two that goes your way.
I'm glad you copped to being a Yankee fan though rich, because Yankee fans (and I am one) are the absolute WORST about doing this. When you have a roster being paid such insane amounts every year and you don't win the title every year, you have to search for all sorts of "abstract" reasons why it didn't work.
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Dec 16, 2010 23:56:36 GMT -5
2. To me, the key in all of these year-to-year comparisons is Wright-Wallace. I often think about how good Wright would be if he had Jon's awareness/appreciation for how to play the PG position and how to manage the game. Lumpy has improved in leaps and bounds in this area, but suffice to say that I don't have the same comfort level as yet with Wright. There are still those 2-3 minute stretches where I wonder if Bowman has implanted a chip in Lumpy's brain. I so disagree with this. The one thing Jon has on Chris is three point shooting and let's be honest most of Jon's shots came through open looks. People can claim Jon was better at making decisions but I would argue that is in part because Jon was limited in what he could do. I'll give Jon credit for playing within-himself and knowing his limitations but that doesn't make me more confident in him than I am in Chris. Chris is more of a point guard than Jon. He breaks the press better, he defends better, he penetrates the defense better, he passes better, he creates better (for himself and others). He's also quicker, a better finisher and more athletic. If the 2008 vs 2011 game came down between what Jon does for his team and what Chris does for his team then 2011 is going to win hands down. That's fair - I would give Chris the edge in many of those categories too - he can break a press and penetrate, no doubt. Part of my thinking is that we don't need all that stuff for what we do - and that we had more success (to date) with a different, more limited PG is no accident. While Chris is talented, we also give up something when he overextends. Jon had a way of making the right play at the right time - and that play rarely involved him, although there are some exceptions we can name rather easily. The ball had a way of finding its way to Jeff Green and Roy Hibbert in most situations - UCONN at home with the Hibbert 3, Vandy, etc. On our current team, the ball thus far has found its way to Hollis Thompson on two end of game situations. Not a knock on Hollis - I like his game - but he is not the first option. More will be required of Chris - he has played in only a couple of crunch time games in March. But, I have doubts that Jon fouls, for example, in that spot against WVU in the BET. |
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Dec 17, 2010 1:19:56 GMT -5
More will be required of Chris - he has played in only a couple of crunch time games in March. But, I have doubts that Jon fouls, for example, in that spot against WVU in the BET. Fair. And I have doubts that Jon could have played as well throughout that entire game and that entire tournament as Chris did. Chris was voted All Big East Tournament, something that Jon was never voted onto during four wonderful seasons. Basically it appears to some extent that you are saying that Jon was good at not getting in the way. You also feel that it didn't matter that Jon didn't have Chris' skills and physical gifts because the team didn't need it. That's an interesting argument. Of course I could say if Jon had those gifts the 2007 Hoya team wins it all and the 2008 team goes at least to the Final Four. I mean if you put Jon's outside shot and smarts with Chris' abilities and skills you have a truly special talent. |
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Dec 17, 2010 1:52:12 GMT -5
Why are we arguing about Hoyas? I mean it takes an ENTIRE DAMN team to win tough games. What irritated me about '08 was that Roy was taken out of the game/had no rhythm due to officiating--but Macklin was playing his best game as a Hoya--team was blowing Davidson out---and for Roy--it was a crappy way for one of Georgetown's best NCAA players EVER to go out. Hibbert showed up HUGE in UNI, Ohio State, Florida games, He was monster against Boston College, was kicking Vandy's butt in 2nd Half, helped the run against UNC, and was Hoyas best player against Ohio State in '07, and then in '08 he had the lone game he didn't show well--and it's like he sucked. That '08 team got jobbed in the seeding, in the Davidson game, and I'll NEVER forgive CBS for switching that game--and having to watch the score/lead slip away only to go back to it--and not have any clue how bad they were screwed until I saw the game on replay on CBS College Sports the following week.
Jeff was great/one of my favorite Hoyas ever--but I'll never forget his passive last game against Ohio State--that just left a horrible last impression--being so hesitant to make his mark on the offensive end and take over the game with Roy needing help/in foul trouble--but it's a team game and others needed to step up as well and didn't--just as what happened in '08 too--although I honestly feel nobody was beating Davidson in that "pod" simply because I watched Gonzaga take it in the shorts in Davidson's opening round win.
For all the Roy/Jeff debates, Ashanti, DJ Owens, and Sapp's big shot to finally give Hoyas lead against UNI in '06 NCAA's, Jessie's big stretch of play against UNC to keep Hoyas in game, and then Wallace shot to tie, the team defense, the play of Dajuan in OT, etc.....it's a TEAM game.
You don't need heroes-you just need a team that sticks it out when it gets tough and believes in each other--and you'll find ways to win.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Dec 17, 2010 2:37:05 GMT -5
Good points, RDF. You've convinced me that this is probably a ridiculous debate.
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bmartin
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Post by bmartin on Dec 17, 2010 8:23:06 GMT -5
2008 wins with much better defense and ability to dictate matchups.
Freeman of 08 could not guard Freeman 11 but JT3 08 would sub for defense and put Ewing on him.
Roy and 08 would own the paint. 11's drives would be stuffed. 08 overplayed the threes knowing that Roy was inside to block and alter shots on penetration.
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Post by HometownHoya on Dec 17, 2010 11:00:24 GMT -5
RDF has it right.
But bmartin brings up a new aspect none of us have thought of...08's defensive philosophy: funnel it into the big man.
I feel like this would affect Chris and Austin ('11) the most out of our guards but hopefully Chris would dish it and Austin could pull-up for the FG or have the body control to finish.
This will probably be a few years down the road 2013 vs 2008 but I would love to see Markel and Vee go up against Roy since both of them have a decent floater that we haven't seen from Chris or Austin (not that we need to, take it hard to the hole boys!)
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