chep3
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Post by chep3 on Dec 16, 2010 10:06:46 GMT -5
Roy would have eaten Julian alive, and that probably would have been enough to lead 08 to the win in my opinion.
But, here's a wrinkle. What if 11 pressed the entire game? We were abysmal against the press in 08. Could the Big 3, Hollis, Vee, and Markel have disrupted the game enough to pull out a Nova like victory over 08?
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Dec 16, 2010 10:21:53 GMT -5
an interesting wrinkle would be. Don't you think '11 JTIII could out coach '08 JTIII especially if you assume that '11 JTIII knows all about his past self, but '08 JTIII doesn't know his future self. I would think '11 JTIII would be able to formulate a game plan to take down his past self.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Dec 16, 2010 10:29:51 GMT -5
I think if JTIII's past self and JTIII's future self were coaching in the same game in the same arena, it would bring about a fundamental rift in the space-time continuum, causing an excess of chronitons in the subatomic interstices that may very well create a chronological wang-dang-doodle could destroy the very matrix of reality.
Our only hope would be if Ethan "Bubblegum" Tate, senior lecturer of physics at Globetrotter University, was on one of the rosters to help investigate.
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vcjack
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Post by vcjack on Dec 16, 2010 10:34:51 GMT -5
Roy would have eaten Julian alive, and that probably would have been enough to lead 08 to the win in my opinion. But, here's a wrinkle. What if 11 pressed the entire game? We were abysmal against the press in 08. Could the Big 3, Hollis, Vee, and Markel have disrupted the game enough to pull out a Nova like victory over 08? I think so, remember that Roy always had bad games against Nova not that anyone in their frontcourt could stop him but rather he would never get the ball because we were turning it over in the backcourt too much
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hoyainspirit
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Post by hoyainspirit on Dec 16, 2010 10:48:00 GMT -5
I think if JTIII's past self and JTIII's future self were coaching in the same game in the same arena, it would bring about a fundamental rift in the space-time continuum, causing an excess of chronitons in the subatomic interstices that may very well create a chronological wang-dang-doodle could destroy the very matrix of reality. Our only hope would be if Ethan "Bubblegum" Tate, senior lecturer of physics at Globetrotter University, was on one of the rosters to help investigate. Man, you crack me up. ;D
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Dec 16, 2010 11:03:29 GMT -5
very nice futurama reference.
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Dec 16, 2010 12:22:37 GMT -5
2011 Hoyas would have a 7' 2" problem on their hands that I'm not sure they could deal with. Additionally, who on the 2011 Hoyas guards Summers? Hollis I guess but that would be a tough matchup I would think. That being said, 2011 guards would dominate the 2008 guards on a man to man basis but playing an effective high-low game with Roy would likely leave JW open for a healthy amount of shots. 2011 would have to press A LOT and be shooting well to pull it out. I think it would be a pretty brutal matchup for the 2011 Hoyas but I think it would a competitive game.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Dec 16, 2010 12:34:58 GMT -5
People are focusing too much on Roy's awesome offense.
Def Eff Ranking:
Three years where Roy Hibbert played >50% of the minutes: 93, 89, 86 (2008) Four Years where Roy Hibbert played <50% of the minutes: 95, 91, 93, 91 (2011)
2008's defense was exceptional, and much of that was Roy.
(Oh, another relevant stat -- NCAA wins with Roy playing >50% -- 7. Without? 0.)
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Dec 16, 2010 12:36:39 GMT -5
How about this:
Let's save this debate for AFTER the '11 season--because the '08 team won the Big East championship, was a #2 seed in NCAA tournament, and imo--was a team that should've been an Elite 8 team if they didn't get absolutely JOBBED by CinderFELLA and the "lovely screw job" of Tom O'Neill and partners. That was a season that ended with one of the best National Championship games --with stacked teams battling it out as well.
As for the '11 team--they are 9-1 right now--and have everything in front of them as there are no teams they can't compete with--but as we've seen from this group in past--they also can "lose concentration" and lose some games they have no business losing. One thing I would like to see from this group--mirror '08 teams record. I know "record" doesn't mean much to a lot of people--but let's face it--most of your National Championship teams lose 5 or less games and to me part of that championship "mettle" is built off winning the tough games that are up for grabs (Missouri game) and making that the norm. It build confidence and with not as much talent differential in teams these days--that confidence is key. Tough schedule or not--championship teams win games and build momentum in self improvement--not waiting for things to happen.
Revisit after the season--but I'll side with a League Champion for now.
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Dec 16, 2010 12:39:17 GMT -5
I agree that we need to see the full body of work first, but a couple of points...
1. I am not sure our 2008 group beats the 2006 group - the latter being the toughest out for Florida in the NCAA tournament in its 2 year run. The 2006 lineup was Wallace-Cook-Bowman-Green-Hibbert with DJ, Sapp (frosh), et al. off the bench. Bowman is rightly vilified (and lampooned), but I think the Class of 2006 produced the most underrated Hoya of the JT3 era - Ashanti Cook. He certainly did not have the ability of many of our more recent guards but he accepted the system and played with a quiet fire that often went unrecognized. The 2006 Duke game is just a poster for this - played through leg cramps and made some huge shots.
2. To me, the key in all of these year-to-year comparisons is Wright-Wallace. I often think about how good Wright would be if he had Jon's awareness/appreciation for how to play the PG position and how to manage the game. Lumpy has improved in leaps and bounds in this area, but suffice to say that I don't have the same comfort level as yet with Wright. There are still those 2-3 minute stretches where I wonder if Bowman has implanted a chip in Lumpy's brain.
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Dec 16, 2010 12:50:10 GMT -5
Not to get off track, but Brandon Bowman does not in any way deserve to be vilified or lampooned. He was a four-year starter who played hard during a critical time period when the program both had some hard knocks and got back on its feet. Sure, I wish he made that layup versus Florida, and he did play out of control at times, but he also made some exceptional plays and had some great games. He deserves to be remembered by all Hoya fans in a positive light.
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Dec 16, 2010 12:52:56 GMT -5
Also, I agree generally with RDF's post above, but I would add that what 2008 did- and what this team needs to do- is take care of business against inferior teams. It is okay to lose to Temple (or Memphis, whether in December 2007 or December 2010) on the road, but we need to beat the lower portion of the Big East 100% of the time. If we do that, we will win enough of our games against the upper tier to compete for a league championship.
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ScreamingHoya
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Post by ScreamingHoya on Dec 16, 2010 13:45:02 GMT -5
Gotta disagree with 2008's bench being better than 2011's bench.
The four who came off the bench for us with decent minutes that year were Rivers, Ewing, Macklin and Wright. Others that I remember were Omar, Tyler and Big Brian Jansen.
Rivers still gives me chills- not the good kind- an adept defender, but the kid flat out could not play basketball in our offensive scheme. Wright in his freshman season was what I like to call "Crazy Chris"- out of control, a turnover machine, who obviously had talent but it wasn't taking shape yet. Macklin's done well at Florida, but let's not be revisionists and pretend the Big Ticket did anything to contribute for us. Ewing I agree was the best 6th man we've had or will have in a long time.
But our bench is both deeper and more talented than it was in 2008- I'm in agreement with it seems like a lot of people on the board that Henry and Nate should be getting the start over Hollis and Julian- you really think you could argue that any of the 2008 bench should've been starting over anyone else in the lineup? Markel and Vee are solid guards as well- I can't recall an instance of ever being disappointed that one of them was on the floor. Jerrelle gives us solid minutes and a body even if he's been a bit disappointing thus far this season, and while he was only in for 2 minutes, Moses looked as comfortable as anyone on the team with being out on the floor and running the offense.
For me, I take 2011 Markel, Vee, Henry, Jerrelle, Moses and Nate over 2008 Rivers, Ewing, Wright and Macklin.
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Dec 16, 2010 13:49:53 GMT -5
Screaming - I kind of lose you on the Macklin/Rivers assessment. Look - I dislike Rivers as much as the next guy, and he's been a punk at Indiana if not at Georgetown as well. But, one look no further to that random player on Temple who lit us up to recall that Rivers added significantly to our defense, and it helped us win games.
Macklin's contributions are somewhat more masked, but I think there are some underappreciated minutes there - particularly in the UNC game.
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ScreamingHoya
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Post by ScreamingHoya on Dec 16, 2010 14:08:17 GMT -5
Like I said, Rivers was an adept defender- I'd love to have his tenacity in everyone on this team- but I think he passed the ball to me in the 8th row more often than his own teammates that year, and had the lowest FG% on the team of the people who played for more than 1 minute a game.
I do remember Macklin having some good minutes in the UNC game- I do not remember it happening any other time. To borrow an Everybody Loves Raymond reference, he was the Useless Giraffe- didn't grab a whole lot of boards for his size, and even though he led the team in FG%, only averaged 3 points a game because he could never establish himself in the post.
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Post by williambraskyiii on Dec 16, 2010 14:11:13 GMT -5
Like I said, Rivers was an adept defender- I'd love to have his tenacity in everyone on this team- but I think he passed the ball to me in the 8th row more often than his own teammates that year, and had the lowest FG% on the team of the people who played for more than 1 minute a game. I do remember Macklin having some good minutes in the UNC game- I do not remember it happening any other time. To borrow an Everybody Loves Raymond reference, he was the Useless Giraffe- didn't grab a whole lot of boards for his size, and even though he led the team in FG%, only averaged 3 points a game because he could never establish himself in the post. St johns, davidson, off the top of my head re VM.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Dec 16, 2010 14:11:25 GMT -5
I'll give you one difference between '08/'11 that I hope bodes well for future--if III trusted his bench/played Macklin against Davidson instead of an ineffective/foul prone Roy in 2nd Half-they beat Davidson and advance. Macklin on the court that day was best big Hoyas had--and he was a better defensive matchup for them--he could hedge/recover and used his quickness/athleticism to disrupt them. With Roy saddled with foul trouble--Hoyas ran them out of gym with Macklin in--he didn't get much run in 2nd Half--and Tom O'Neill and the crooks took over to help CinderFELLA and rest is history.
History can repeat itself--so if the scenario unfolds this year--do you think if Henry and Nate are playing well--Julian Vaughn comes in because he's a "SR"? He's nowhere near the level player Hibbert was/is--so the strength of not having a high profile player is often you can go by committee.
Let's face it--it's often argued in an NBA game--leave the guy in who is playing best that particular game--and the coaches who do this--win--coaches who don't--lose. They have benefit of a longer season, talented players, etc....but it's still same concept at that level--do you return to your "best" player--or player who is playing best that game? That's what I believe depth is important for--to utilize the roster to its fullest throughout a season and III has to learn from his mistakes/his dads---(Hoyas without AI in BET title game in '96 were better then when he came back in game--Page was destroying UConn). Know the counter argument to "win/lose with my best"-but your object is to win--and some games that means other guys need to step up--see Ralph Dalton against GA Tech in '85 East Regional Final--he was as important as any Hoya. You recruit guys to play--and if they play well--play them! Just think it's easier for coaches to justify when you don't have a "star" having off night then it is when you do--because you always feel he can pull it out--instead of seeing bigger picture.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Dec 16, 2010 14:15:06 GMT -5
2. To me, the key in all of these year-to-year comparisons is Wright-Wallace. I often think about how good Wright would be if he had Jon's awareness/appreciation for how to play the PG position and how to manage the game. Lumpy has improved in leaps and bounds in this area, but suffice to say that I don't have the same comfort level as yet with Wright. There are still those 2-3 minute stretches where I wonder if Bowman has implanted a chip in Lumpy's brain. I so disagree with this. The one thing Jon has on Chris is three point shooting and let's be honest most of Jon's shots came through open looks. People can claim Jon was better at making decisions but I would argue that is in part because Jon was limited in what he could do. I'll give Jon credit for playing within-himself and knowing his limitations but that doesn't make me more confident in him than I am in Chris. Chris is more of a point guard than Jon. He breaks the press better, he defends better, he penetrates the defense better, he passes better, he creates better (for himself and others). He's also quicker, a better finisher and more athletic. If the 2008 vs 2011 game came down between what Jon does for his team and what Chris does for his team then 2011 is going to win hands down.
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Post by RockawayHoya on Dec 16, 2010 14:27:36 GMT -5
Better comparison for 2011 so far... 2009. Great start to begin the non-conf season and a big win at UConn. Whether or not they become 2009 or 2008 this year depends on whether or not they do any damage in the BE.
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richfame
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Post by richfame on Dec 16, 2010 20:46:46 GMT -5
After the Final Four appearance of 2007 much of the off season talk was if Hibbert/Green were coming back which would have been our year to win it all. I figured one would come back and one would leave. Just law of averages. So I asked myself if only one came back which one would I want. At the time I wanted Hibbert back. Having Hibbert made us more of a complete team. Big Center, good forwards, and very good guards. Looking back on it I guess having Green instead of hibbert would have made us a better team. True we would have had a big void at center relying on Macklin but Green was our heart and sole. We would not have lost to Davidson if we had green. We lost our mental toughness, heart and edge.
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