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Post by harwoodhoya on Aug 5, 2010 0:12:25 GMT -5
Is it me or does this years promising recruiting class could be in some trouble. This is a really big year for us becuase our conference is only getting better. What recruits do we realistically have a chance with and not just on a list to be nice?
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deacon
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Post by deacon on Aug 5, 2010 1:19:57 GMT -5
If this is a knee-jerk reaction to Dawson committing to MSU, I'd come down off the ledge because while he did constantly list Georgetown, it didn't seem like he was ever truly leaving the Midwest. Of course it would have been great to have him, but I was never really looking at him as a possibility.
Sure, it would be nice to have a commitment by now since it seems most BE schools have at least one, but to be honest, a lot of the top-tier guys that we've been listed with and I know the staff are on (Christmas, Cook, Chol, Hood, JOB, Hopkins) are nowhere near deciding, not to mention guys like Daniels, Katenda and other random cats who seem interested but it's unclear how interested the staff is in them.
I understand it's easy to be a little worried when the Hoyas have zero commits and 'Cuse has two, 'Nova has four, Louisville has two studs and even Rutgers has a top 150 commit already in the fold ... I get it.
However, the only two real guys that I feel like that the Hoyas missed out on were Ty Johnson and Mychael Henry. Johnson, for obvious reasons and Henry because it seemed like the staff was on right before he started to blow up and it seemed like the interest was mutual.
I was honestly looking at this class as being Ty Johnson, Christmas and two dudes to be named later. With Johnson out of the equation, it's now Christmas, and three dudes to be named later. Now, if the Hoyas don't land Christmas, who has reportedly like the Hoyas for a long time and who the staff has been on for a long time, then I'm with you. However, if the staff was still able to land a JOB or Chol to go with Hood and two random dudes, then I'd be more than fine with this class.
However, if the Hoyas strike out with Christmas, JOB, Chol, Cook, Hopkins and Hood, then I'd gladly climb up on that ledge with you. But to be honest, I'd be floored if Cook comes here, and the only reason I included him is I know how hard the staff has recruited him.
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Post by harwoodhoya on Aug 5, 2010 7:04:33 GMT -5
Thanks I appreciate the info. I know people will overreact to this thread but I feel its a good question. We lose a lot after this season and we need a big class to come in with. I'm thinking 2 bigs, wing, and pg!
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Aug 5, 2010 8:54:10 GMT -5
we need the 2 bigs and the wing, but i don't think we need the pg in this class not with: Jason as a senior, Vee as a junior, and markel as a sophomore when these guys come in all capable of playing pg at times. It'd be nice and if we don't get one next year we'll need 1 the following year. but we don't need it as much as we need bigs.
at the 1 and 2 we'll have jason, vee, markel, aaron.
Markel is our PG of the future and should start his sophomore- senior seasons, and for next year i think jason and vee will be perfectly good back ups at PG.
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Post by harwoodhoya on Aug 5, 2010 9:52:20 GMT -5
Good point
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hoyaboy1
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Post by hoyaboy1 on Aug 5, 2010 10:00:21 GMT -5
I'm a little worried too. We need at least 1 player with star potential in this class, because I'm not sure that anyone on the roster who is returning could realistically be the best player on a team that contends for a national title.
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alleninxis
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Post by alleninxis on Aug 5, 2010 10:11:48 GMT -5
that 'wide net' we appeared to cast in the spring certainly has started to dwindle.
I'm as big of an advocate of III as anyone..never criticized the guy minus things such as zone D and inbounds plays. Consider me part of the post Esherick group that can't knock the guy cause of what that era was like. (and having never been around for Pops prime run)
But there has to be a fundamental change in how this program recruits.
You CAN NOT sit back and choose when you win ZERO games in March for 2 years or 1 game in 3 years. You're not North Carolina, Duke or Kansas right now. Hell, UNC is a perfect example..when they won a title they could come on the #1 prospect late and steal him. When they go to the NIT they can't come in late and make a final cut for a top 5 kid.
If you're not winning in March, you better recruit like a mad man. And that means sending OFFERS out. To echo RDF, youre in Sam Thompson's top 5..he's as good of a fit as there is..why the hell isn't an offer on the table. Kansas can do that now..you can't.
IE..LJ Rose lists Georgetown...and it's an impressive school list..the only schools not to offer are; Duke, UNC, Kansas, Uconn and us. 3 of those schools can proceed in that manner, 2 can't. And this is a kid who is a lock to be a top 10 PG at worst in 2012..why the hell not offer and see what mutual interest is actually there
This isn't just cause Dawson chose MSU, he always staying Midwest, or that Thompson has a top 3 that doesn't include us right now...it's just who is out there that we lead for? That is being pursued aggressively enough RIGHT NOW to pull the trigger. It looks like nobody.
The staff has to get Rodney Hood essentially at all costs right now. And if not, things could turn real bad for this class.
Maybe this is an overreaction and Christmas, Hood, Daniels and a 4th all come on board..I don't even think that is far fetched, it's very possible. But man, something or someone has to pop soon.
Thankfully we salvaged the 2010 class but it should not be acceptable to go down that road again. The more borderline Top 150 guys you bring in..you're more likely to not find Sanford/Bowen's and end up with Wattad's.
This program and staff (and this undoubtedly starts at the top, there are no fall guys) has got to become more aggressive in approach -- offer early, and pursue until they give that commitment. I realize JT3's personality and demeanor and he doesn't like to beat the door down..but sometimes a kid just wants that attention.
Love the guy to death and still think we will be okay with this class...but 1 or 2 more losses of our targets and it will not end well.
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Post by harwoodhoya on Aug 5, 2010 10:33:00 GMT -5
Agree we are too good of a program to be so laid back in recruiting. I hear about all these kids we have a shot with and in the end we get the short end of the stick. Remember we lucked up with Chris. Maybe JT3 is the type of guy that hates HS All Americans and like those middle of the road guys.I personally feel like we are recruiting more like Maryland by the day.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Aug 5, 2010 10:41:37 GMT -5
I know this sub-board pays much more attention to recruiting than I am capable of, but three thoughts:
1. I implicitly trust coach Thompson III in recruiting. If they're not comfortable with a recruit, neither am I. We all understand that recruit shopping is prevalent in AAU circles and some coaches play this game and some do not. Georgetown doesn't need to beg, borrow, and plead a 17 year old to attend GU if he doesn't want to from the start--that's a formula for a sophomore transfer. Additionally, if the grades aren't there (and yes, there are admissions hurdles out there), Georgetown is not going to publicly disassociate from a recruit.
2. Many Georgetown fans think this is the best of all worlds for a The astounding lack of facilities will turn recruits away. Remember Tony Bethel's remark that at NC State, he could open the gym and practice at any time? Not so at Georgetown. Just like Georgetown fights above its weight class academically, it does athletically--to expect to beat Kansas or Duke or Michigan State on a consistent basis with what it is offering is myopic. Can it do better against Villanova? Probably, but with a turnover in assistants there is going to be a gap in the groundwork that Cox and Burke had worked on vs. Kirby and Brennan.
It's also tougher to sell out of the region. Instead of losing sleep that some kid in Houston or St. Louis won't come to Georgetown, work the home turf (esp. the WCAC), don't be afraid to go head to head with teams in NY and Boston, and build the base there.
3. Unlike the Thompson and Esherick teams which swung wildly between recruiting classes, the Thompson III teams build on depth. Georgetown doesn't need to hit three home runs in 2011 if the pieces are in place from 2008-10; Greg Monroe notwithstanding, depth is an asset, as opposed to the nine open spots on St. John's in 2011-12.
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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Aug 5, 2010 10:48:25 GMT -5
Look at the Will Barton saga. I am sure we would have taken the kid but it looks like he may not get to play college ball at all.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Aug 5, 2010 11:11:14 GMT -5
Your points are valid but not what we're talking about here DFW. In case of Sam Thompson--the kid was asked by Staff to visit Georgetown, he's got a 29 ACT, great grades, is a guy who they obviously were/are interested in-but no offer? Offers dont' mean you have to take anyone--but it keeps you involved/in the game.
Let's put it this way-the way the program recruited when III was hired was far different then how Pops/Esherick did things--it also helped produced the schools first Final Four in 22 years. You would read about Georgetown being everywhere on the trail, in contact with recruits, offering kids, and it paid off. There was a hunger--and not the arrogance that Pops/Esherick carried on the trail of this "we want you if you want us" crap. Whether you like it or not-you are in business of having to kiss the butt of teenagers to get them to come to your school and whether you like it or not--kids don't take well to a "laid back/wait and see" approach. They see that as you aren't interested and if you don't adjust to times--you'll miss out.
My personal issue is with the lack of competition within the roster/roster composition. More talent on your roster, tougher practices, better team. That is a formula that works in any/every sport. People can talk of "overrated" recruits like Macklin/Rivers, etc....but these kids were strong bench players and helped team win.
If you are going to operate a system like Georgetown uses--it's best to go big/tall/skilled. Georgetown doesn't recruit to that though-and like al ot of coaches--III seems intrigued by players who remind him of himself--whether it's on purpose or not. Just as Pops loved Big men and would actually work at recruiting if he saw a great big man, III loves the "tweeners" and that isn't good for his system/his level of competition. You can't win anything with midgets in his system and proof is on record-look at size/roster make up of teams from '05-'08 and look at success. Now look at past 2 years and what is difference?
Nobody says you have to have a roster made up of a C, PF, SF, SG, and PG. However--when you have kids who can do a lot of things on court--and they have grades--it's best to offer them to keep their interest or dont' be shocked when they drop you--and limit your options. Less options recruiting equate to reaching/hoping you can find someone and this "wait til Spring" attitude just doesn't fly with kids--and the fact Hoyas appear to be out of loop--for discussion sake--take Branden Dawson-he's a kid who had them in top 5 and repeatedly said "I'm a Spring decision......." and then pulls trigger yesterday for Michigan State and says "I knew in June after my unofficial". Well that happens--no big deal right? Well why is Georgetown wasting time at a game he's hurt/doesn't play watching his team play? This has nothing to do with any coach being gone--since the coach in charge of recruiting him was Hunter.
You dont' accomplish anything by being passive and if anything the way Hoya program views itself is outdated and not how recruits see them. III would be far better served doing things his own way then doing it his father's way because his father is better known for letting the program drop off to a level that it had to be rebuilt then he is for being a pioneer. Georgetown was/could've been what Duke is today--but to do that--you better understand you can't develop players into greatness--you have to get players who are great and develop them. There isn't any magic wand--it's been/is/will be a game based on getting TALENTED PLAYERS and those kids like to be recruited and aggressively--no matter what they say.
Now I'm basing this off the fact you want to compete on the level for championships and not just be a nice program who is filled with nice kids who are decent players. Georgetown proved you can sell the place to elite recruits when III took over with it's limitations-and now they are limiting themselves with this outdated 1980's approach that ruined program in first place. Never get everyone you want--but you can make it difficult by engaging in the fight--instead of standing back and acting like it's on level with programs that have more recent success/can sit/pick/choose who they want.
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RBHoya
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Post by RBHoya on Aug 5, 2010 12:12:31 GMT -5
Good posts by inxis and rdf. I can understand that coaches don't want to spend their lives kissing the ass of some 16 year old who may never amount to much. But if you're going to refuse to do that then you better make sure you get some mentally and physically tough players who you can coach up and make a squad out of, or else your on-court performance will be mediocre at best. This is basically the Gary Williams approach to the profession. I'm not convinced that JTIII is on that level yet, where he can just take a bunch of lightly recruited players and coach them up into being contenders. His skills as a motivator are still questionable, given the lack of toughness and focus the last couple teams have shown. So I agree with rdf that Pops is really bad role model on this front--other than maybe a very few exceptions, you have to kiss some ass to get talent... and if you don't like it, go get a job as an NBA assistant or an analyst or something, cause it's kind of a fact of life as a college basketball coach in the 21st century.
To answer the question posed in this thread, yes, I think you're not nervous about our 2011 recruiting right now, you're not paying attention. Being nervous doesn't mean panicing, but if you've followed things the last few years and you've followed things this year, it's definitely a nervous time. Our hopes seem to really hang on 2 guys right now in Christmas and Hood, and aside from Hood saying we were on him hardest a few weeks back, I'm not sure what to feel about either.
Also, I'm not really a fan of this waiting til spring thing that we've been doing... 2 spring guys in '09, 2 in 2010, and unless we get 4 commits in the next 8 or 10 weeks, we'll be carrying some scholarships into spring again. Waiting til spring to get a substantial number of your recruits isn't a good idea IMO. It's how teams like Rutgers or Seton Hall or St. Johns usually do things. I remember back around '06 I used to get a kick out of reading those teams boards when they'd get all excited for some unranked nobody to commit to them in April of his senior year, cause it was like "Yea, I doubt this nobody makes the difference." But these days its starting to feel like we're trending in that direction as far as recruiting strategy. I don't mind a late signing here or there when it makes sense, but I'm not crazy about getting 50% or more of each class as late signees. Most top kids still sign in fall. The guys who wait til spring are usually either academic risks (ie. Latavious), late bloomers/underrecruited guys (ie. Benimon) or primadonnas waiting for their Kentucky offer (Terrence Jones, Brandon Knight etc.). I think you need to have most if not all of your main recruits nailed down early, and if you want to keep maybe 1 scholarship tops for flexibility in spring with decommits, transfers etc. But trying to do heavy lifting in spring every year the way teams like Providence or Seton Hall do things doesn't seem like a strong long-term strategy to me.
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Aug 5, 2010 12:19:05 GMT -5
What creates the impression that III and the staff are laid back? Putting aside the Sam Thompson situation, which I find incomprehensible, all we've been hearing is how III and the staff are everywhere, pursuing all kinds of kids. By no means does this seem like a "let the kids come to us" kind of approach that Pops devolved into. I do agree with Allen, though, that we should be offering sooner. Have we offered Amile Jefferson yet? If not, why the hell not?
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alleninxis
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Post by alleninxis on Aug 5, 2010 12:29:35 GMT -5
it's not that they aren't working hard. We know that they are, but it's been said by recruits before that III isn't an in your face, call at every moment type of guy. Which is fine, and some recruits prefer that. Some just do want that attention, though.
It seems like we often have one foot in and one foot out. Be more decisive with a kid like Bishop Daniels cause a school that values him will be.
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Post by hoyas big supporter on Aug 5, 2010 12:31:25 GMT -5
What creates the impression that III and the staff are laid back? Answer: Our head coach's demeanor? Did you watch him for the majority of the game when we were getting blown out by Ohio? I mean i love III more than the next guy, but there has to be some level of intensity about a coach to be successful on a consistent basis.
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Post by bronxhoya87 on Aug 5, 2010 12:48:32 GMT -5
In a world where perception becomes reality, it is way too easy to negative recruit our program.
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Post by gtowndynasty on Aug 5, 2010 13:14:43 GMT -5
In a world where perception becomes reality, it is way too easy to negative recruit our program. Exactly. And a time where info is readily available at the drop of a hat makes it more disconcerting. That perception can become reality to the masses VERY fast. From what is being discussed on the circuit though, our system doesnt do a disservice to bigs, just guards. I think the fact that Chris/Austin BOTH are still here hurts us because just about every other burger boy from their class is league- flynn mayo j.anderson bayless harden rose of course there are those that are still in college too, but more are in the L from the guard spot than are not and we have two of those that arent. That hurts with perception. I only know that because I had a convo with a guy a year ago that was a very highly sought after wing that was considering us and chose to attend memphis.. I know that will probably evoke some criticism, but Im a little past tired of people not acknowledging the obvious limitations. We have an offense that works and we win games with it, but it doesnt translate to our guards getting to the L in a timely manner, which is what kids care about. The other thing that we all know hurts is facilities. That is something we cannot control and get corrected right away so we can just acknowledge those criticisms exist and focus on changing the perception that our wings dont get to the L. BTW, who was the last guard to get to the L outta G'Town? AI in 1996. That is what is condemning us and this system! Lets hope Chris/Austin get there and shine so that we can disprove this, but as it stands that is a fair critique.
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Post by bronxhoya87 on Aug 5, 2010 13:18:48 GMT -5
2010-2011 is a huge season for us. Would be nice to see either Chris or Austin win the BE POY and be All Americans. We also have to play a more dynamic style where we get up and down the court. Most importantly a good run in the tourney.
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Dhall
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Post by Dhall on Aug 5, 2010 13:43:50 GMT -5
1. If I were a top prospect, I wouldn't commit until the fall of my senior year. With all the coaching changes, sanctions, other late signings which might impact playing time, etc. there is no benefit to declaring early with a program. For mid-range or borderline prospects, I suppose it's good to take an early offer.
2. Agree with posters who say we should focus on the local, but I would expand it to mean Big East regions where we are constantly on TV. That's DC, NY, New England, Philly, and the other places to a lesser extent. Hoyas did win some big games this past March by the way, but only if you consider the Big East tourney important.
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damnhoya
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Post by damnhoya on Aug 5, 2010 14:23:52 GMT -5
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