Most OVERRATED coach

[harlemhoya]

Feb 25, 2010 14:26:05 GMT -5 the_way said:

Feb 25, 2010 14:21:56 GMT -5 harlemhoya said:

Dean Smith overrated? Dean went 30 consecutive years finishing 1st or 2nd in the Acc.

only 2 titles (both with asterisks) to show for it

all that talent that went through UNC, and only 2 titles?

i mean, Bill Guthridge took a UNC team to the Final Four....TWICE.

What is Roy doing with all that so called talent. The man went to 11 final fours. I guess Pat Ewing and John Thompson were overrated because they only won 1 championship.

[the_way]

John Thompson would have had as many titles as John Wooden if he had UNC's talent that Dean had.

same with Bob Knight.

[harlemhoya]

Feb 25, 2010 14:37:14 GMT -5 the_way said:

John Thompson would have had as many titles as John Wooden if he had UNC's talent that Dean had.

same with Bob Knight.

The same John Thompson that got spanked in the Olympics. The same John Thompson that lost to Xavier and Duke with Alonzo Mourning and Dikembe Mutombo.

[the_way]

yes, that same John Thompson.

[guru]

Feb 25, 2010 14:41:56 GMT -5 harlemhoya said:

Feb 25, 2010 14:37:14 GMT -5 the_way said:

John Thompson would have had as many titles as John Wooden if he had UNC's talent that Dean had.

same with Bob Knight.

The same John Thompson that got spanked in the Olympics. The same John Thompson that lost to Xavier and Duke with Alonzo Mourning and Dikembe Mutombo.

ha - I have a feeling JTJr would get a lot of votes as "most overrated" on any other board.

I'd say Big John's cultural impact far outpaced his coaching abilities. He had a great ten year run from the late 70s to late 80s and then tailed off really badly. The last few seasons of his career were actually embarrassing for a coach of his stature.

And I'm not sure I've ever seen worse in-game coaching than the way he managed to blow the 1996 BET final to UConn. That was atrocious.

[kchoya]

Feb 25, 2010 14:57:12 GMT -5 guru said:

Feb 25, 2010 14:41:56 GMT -5 harlemhoya said:

The same John Thompson that got spanked in the Olympics. The same John Thompson that lost to Xavier and Duke with Alonzo Mourning and Dikembe Mutombo.

ha - I have a feeling JTJr would get a lot of votes as "most overrated" on any other board.

I'd say Big John's cultural impact far outpaced his coaching abilities. He had a great ten year run from the late 70s to late 80s and then tailed off really badly. The last few seasons of his career were actually embarrassing for a coach of his stature.

And I'm not sure I've ever seen worse in-game coaching than the way he managed to blow the 1996 BET final to UConn. That was atrocious.

Yet we still win if Allen does hit that crazy shot, or Jerome converts a bunny (or they call the foul).

[the_way]

Feb 25, 2010 14:57:12 GMT -5 guru said:

Feb 25, 2010 14:41:56 GMT -5 harlemhoya said:

The same John Thompson that got spanked in the Olympics. The same John Thompson that lost to Xavier and Duke with Alonzo Mourning and Dikembe Mutombo.

ha - I have a feeling JTJr would get a lot of votes as "most overrated" on any other board.

I'd say Big John's cultural impact far outpaced his coaching abilities. He had a great ten year run from the late 70s to late 80s and then tailed off really badly. The last few seasons of his career were actually embarrassing for a coach of his stature.

And I'm not sure I've ever seen worse in-game coaching than the way he managed to blow the 1996 BET final to UConn. That was atrocious.

Than how could he have made a cultural impact if his coaching abilities were "far outpaced"? Its actually the other way around.

If he didn't win, he didn't have a voice. He didn't have a platform to speak on, if he didn't win as big as he did.

And how did he do that? With his great coaching.

JT2 is underrated as a coach and his abilities were dwarfed by his cultural significance and impact on the game of basketball and beyond.

But none of that happens if he couldn't coach his butt off.

He is not in the basketball hall of fame for his cultural impact.

The last 5 minutes of the 1996 game was playing not to lose, which he was at fault at. the 1st 35 minutes was coaching brilliance. All coaches, even the great ones have some games that they would like to take back.

And Bob Knight's last few years at Indiana were not what he used to achieve. Neither were the majority of his years at Texas Tech.

Doesn't take away what he did overall as a coach.

[harlemhoya]

Feb 25, 2010 14:43:24 GMT -5 the_way said:

yes, that same John Thompson.

What did big John win without Pat Ewing. Dean won a championship with George Lynch, Eric Montross, Brian Reese, Donald Williams and Derrick Phelps. Big John did not reach the final four with Reggie and the Miracles, Alzono / Dikembe and the Allen Iverson 96 team.

[guru]

Feb 25, 2010 15:08:12 GMT -5 the_way said:

Feb 25, 2010 14:57:12 GMT -5 guru said:

ha - I have a feeling JTJr would get a lot of votes as "most overrated" on any other board.

I'd say Big John's cultural impact far outpaced his coaching abilities. He had a great ten year run from the late 70s to late 80s and then tailed off really badly. The last few seasons of his career were actually embarrassing for a coach of his stature.

And I'm not sure I've ever seen worse in-game coaching than the way he managed to blow the 1996 BET final to UConn. That was atrocious.

Than how could he have made a cultural impact if his coaching abilities were "far outpaced"? Its actually the other way around.

If he didn't win, he didn't have a voice. He didn't have a platform to speak on, if he didn't win as big as he did.

And how did he do that? With his great coaching.

JT2 is underrated as a coach and his abilities were dwarfed by his cultural significance and impact on the game of basketball and beyond.

But none of that happens if he couldn't coach his butt off.

He is not in the basketball hall of fame for his cultural impact.

The last 5 minutes of the 1996 game was playing not to lose, which he was at fault at. the 1st 35 minutes was coaching brilliance. All coaches, even the great ones have some games that they would like to take back.

And Bob Knight's last few years at Indiana were not what he used to achieve. Neither were the majority of his years at Texas Tech.

Doesn't take away what he did overall as a coach.

I just disagree to a certain extent.

To be clear, I didn't write that he "didn't win." That would be foolish, as he won nearly 500 games. Nor did I write that he wasn't a good coach - I only wrote that one could make the argument that he has been overrated as a coach.

JTJr was certainly a good coach, who had a decade-long run of very, very good seasons.

I actually think his son would coach circles around him - and I bet he'd admit that himself

Oh, and do you really not think his cultural impact affected the public's perception of him. You're right that it's a bit of chicken/egg thing - he had to win to have the cultural impact - but the cultural impact lasted far longer than the good coaching, IMO.

[harlemhoya]

Than how could he have made a cultural impact if his coaching abilities were "far outpaced"? Its actually the other way around.

If he didn't win, he didn't have a voice. He didn't have a platform to speak on, if he didn't win as big as he did.


Patrick Ewing

[the_way]

i see where you are coming from, guru.

yes, the perception of him is all about his cultural impact, and that is his legacy, perception-wise.

i also think it burns him a little bit. JT2 always makes the comments of saying he never had the luxury of just being a coach. He fought a lot of battles that a lot of coaches now don't have to, including his son.

As far as JT2 vs. JTIII, I think JT2, at his best and when motivated, would defeat his son more often than not.


JT2 understood personnel, how to recruit it and how to build it on to top of his defensive philosophy, his team's scrappy disciplined play and impact on the boards and in the paint.

those type of teams have given JTIII teams trouble.

I think JTIII has the offensive edge and better crunch time game management though.

[harlemhoya]

Feb 25, 2010 15:26:35 GMT -5 the_way said:

i see where you are coming from, guru.

yes, the perception of him is all about his cultural impact, and that is his legacy, perception-wise.

i also think it burns him a little bit. JT2 always makes the comments of saying he never had the luxury of just being a coach. He fought a lot of battles that a lot of coaches now don't have to, including his son.

As far as JT2 vs. JTIII, I think JT2, at his best and when motivated, would defeat his son more often than not.


JT2 understood personnel, how to recruit it and how to build it on to top of his defensive philosophy, his team's scrappy disciplined play and impact on the boards and in the paint.

those type of teams have given JTIII teams trouble.

I think JTIII has the offensive edge and better crunch time game management though.

Do you think JTIII can out coach Dean Smith in these areas?

[SFHoya99]

I love Izzo. I've grown to respect Self more. I think Bo Ryan gets more done with less. Howland is still a good coach despite this year. Calipari is actually a strong coach even if he's a slimeball and a cheater.

I think Roy Williams is mostly talent. Same with Barnes. Pitino reminds me of LaRussa -- good but overthinks his role sometimes. I think the person who thought Calhoun was overrated is crazy.

[SFHoya99]

Anyone who cites the Mutombo/Mourning thing... I have to question if they remember Dikembe back then.

[harlemhoya]

Feb 25, 2010 15:56:52 GMT -5 SFHoya99 said:

Anyone who cites the Mutombo/Mourning thing... I have to question if they remember Dikembe back then.

The 89 and 90 teams underachieved

[757hoyafan]

To add... XU also had Tyrone Hill & Derrick Strong on their front line. Not exactly DII players...

Feb 25, 2010 15:56:52 GMT -5 SFHoya99 said:

Anyone who cites the Mutombo/Mourning thing... I have to question if they remember Dikembe back then.

[SFHoya99]

Feb 25, 2010 16:02:58 GMT -5 harlemhoya said:

Feb 25, 2010 15:56:52 GMT -5 SFHoya99 said:

Anyone who cites the Mutombo/Mourning thing... I have to question if they remember Dikembe back then.

The 89 and 90 teams underachieved

Maybe, but the general line is -- he had two great centers! How did they not win a National Title! It's like wondering why UNC didn't win the title Jordan's sophomore and junior year.

I wouldn't call 88-89 underachieving. BE and BET Title. And while I can see disappointment in the Elite Eight -- it's a single elimination tourney and you got to the last eight. I can't agree. (plus, Mutombo was not the player anyone remembers, esp. that year).

I can see the arguments for 89-90 and 90-91. But I'm not sure it should be predicated on Mourning and Mutombo together being unstoppable.

[guru]

Feb 25, 2010 16:27:46 GMT -5 SFHoya99 said:

Feb 25, 2010 16:02:58 GMT -5 harlemhoya said:

The 89 and 90 teams underachieved

Maybe, but the general line is -- he had two great centers! How did they not win a National Title! It's like wondering why UNC didn't win the title Jordan's sophomore and junior year.

I wouldn't call 88-89 underachieving. BE and BET Title. And while I can see disappointment in the Elite Eight -- it's a single elimination tourney and you got to the last eight. I can't agree. (plus, Mutombo was not the player anyone remembers, esp. that year).

I can see the arguments for 89-90 and 90-91. But I'm not sure it should be predicated on Mourning and Mutombo together being unstoppable.

I feel like I'm piling on JT2 today, but the way that '89 team got throttled by Duke in the Elight Eight that season was inexcusable. Coack K ran rings around him that day.

89-90 season was when Deke was injured, right? The problem with those Mourning/Mutombo teams was that JT2 had pretty much stopped recruiting, so those teams had mid-major talent around those two big guys. It was an incredible waste of 2 players that could have been a devastating force if that team was built properly.

[Jack]

That 88-89 team was damn good, but never really seemed to recover from Charles Smith's illness/the early scare from Princeton in the tournament. Mourning was a force even as a freshman, Smitty was co-BE POY, and then you had a junior trio of Tillmon/Bryant/Jackson plus a mean enforcer type in John Turner. Mutombo was basically a curiosity among that very talented group. If they had been able to beat Duke in East Rutherford that year, you wonder whether GU holds on for a while longer as the dominant power on the east coast. Instead, you have the beginning of the legend of Christian Laettner and Zo never makes it past the second round again.

[harlemhoya]

Feb 25, 2010 16:06:03 GMT -5 757hoyafan said:

To add... XU also had Tyrone Hill & Derrick Strong on their front line. Not exactly DII players...

Feb 25, 2010 15:56:52 GMT -5 SFHoya99 said:

Anyone who cites the Mutombo/Mourning thing... I have to question if they remember Dikembe back then.

Aron Williams was another NBA player on that Xavier team. Pete Gillen out coached John Thompson that day.