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Post by ExcitableBoy on Feb 18, 2010 10:34:09 GMT -5
You got to be kidding me. Shaun White's first run was better than both Vito's and the Finnish kid's. He's head and shoulders better than anybody else. It's not even close. Just because he was getting about 5 ft higher out of the pipe doesn't mean it was a better run. They said before the olympics they would hold each athlete to their own personal standard (and if they would match it). Shaun White's first run was not his personal best where as both Vito and the Fin pushed themselves and both did tricks that neither had ever done in competition. I agree with much of the rest of your post... but this first part is, as Peter King would put it, semi idiotic-esque. Judging based on perceived personal best?? Gimme a break. Yes, the fact that his jumps were literally head and shoulders above everyone else matters. What doesn't matter is what hypothetical Shaun White should have been able to do. This 'personal best' logic is bs. Although maybe if it's really used I could finally win that myself an olympic gold by scraping my way down the halfpipe and not falling once!! That would definitely be a personal best for me on a snowboard.
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Post by HometownHoya on Feb 18, 2010 11:09:57 GMT -5
Let me start out by saying that when I am talk about Shaun's run I am talking about his first one, not his second one (which rightly won gold).
But thats the thing about snowboarding in the olympics: its not like the traditional Olympic sports in any way. There are a couple of things that judges look at that the avg olympic viewer doesn't know.
1) Progression: the IOC and the FIS (btw why is snowboarding regulated by a skiing federation) said when they added snowboarding to the olympics that they would give extra bonus to riders who progressed the sport during competition (aka doing a trick that had not been seen before). IE: Shaun White has progressed the sport w/ his double cork 1080s and 1260 BUT for this Olympics (and in competition in general), Louie Vito landed the 1260 before Shaun did (both landed it in their second run, hence why Shaun's second run should have been gold).
2) Flow: when doing tricks in the half-pipe, it is easier to spin one way or another depending on the rider's stance, style, and just the physics of the pipe. If you were to spin the easy way every time it shouldn't be enough to win the gold and also the "flow" wouldn't look as good. If you switch up your spins it ups the difficulty but at the same time can make the run look smooth and have better "flow". For example, it seems this olympics they put a lot on flow because they docked Louie Vito big time on his second run, even though it was the most technical of the day, because it did not have the best flow. Now I'm sure you are thinking "Shaun's run looked pretty smooth" but the thing is that both his double cork 1080s and the regular 1080 at the end of the run (which he switched out for the dbl cork mctwist 1260 in the second run) were spun the "easy" way (obviously all subjective b/c 1080s aren't easy for the avg person) and he had so much air time he had time to spin it slower and make it look smooth. Where as the Fin spun not only every direction that you could but he didn't put it together in the "easiest" sequence but more in the more difficult, technical, and smoother way, creating a better "flow".
3) Style: Shuan definitely did have one of the best styles on his run of this Olympics but style is the most vague judging criteria ever. (Although I think the Japenese guy w/ the dreads had the best style, esp w/ his inverted rodeo 540)
4) Finally the Judges do not (or at least should not) put extra importance on the amplitude (height out of the pipe). It is not one of their criteria but obviously amplitude is important because it gives you more time in the air to do your tricks so you can "float" the spins a little more. Part of the reason why Shaun looks so smooth and has a lot of style because he gets so much air so he does just "float" the spins and has plenty of time to get fully around the spin and lined up to straight across the pipe for his next hit.
One thing that they changed this year that I liked a lot is requiring at least one of the hits to be a straight air. Surprising to most people, when you get to that level and that speed, it is easier to spin out of the pipe then just straight air it. The straight air helps show how much composure the riders have in the air and also it gives you a chance to add more style (and more recognizable style when not in slow mo) with your grab and tweak.
Sorry, I should have explained more my first statement.
PS: Would you rather have a gold medal winner be the rider who did their safety run or the rider who pushed themselves further then they ever have in competition?
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Post by sleepyjackson21 on Feb 18, 2010 11:25:14 GMT -5
I would rather have the guy who had the best run win the competition. Shaun White's two runs were the best. His first run was his safety run, i'll give you that, but it was still better than any other run.
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Feb 18, 2010 11:52:07 GMT -5
PS: Would you rather have a gold medal winner be the rider who did their safety run or the rider who pushed themselves further then they ever have in competition? If one guy's "safety run" is still far better than anyone and everyone else's BEST run... then yes, that guy deserves the gold medal. If you apply to Georgetown as your "Safety school" and you get in, does that mean you dont' deserve to be there because for someone else it was their #1 school? Hometown... I don't think you realize how your posts sound.. like you're still the little kid who is jealous of Shaun because he is soooo much better than everyone else. Yes he gets sponsors. Yes he has his own halfpipe! But he got those things because he EARNED them by years of success and tons of style. Remember when Rodman and Isiah Thomas said if Larry Bird were black everyone would say "he's just another good player". They also said "he didn't deserve his three MVPs"? OK -- if you were a kid with Shaun White than your probably don't. But take my word for it, they did. How did that make them sound? Like a bunch of sore sports. That's what your posts sound like. It comes off as whining, when in reality Shaun White has done more to promote Half-pipe snowboarding than anyone else and he is BETTER than anyone else. And yes, he deserved the Gold Medal... and he deserved the Silver medal too if that were possible.
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Post by sleepyjackson21 on Feb 18, 2010 12:01:44 GMT -5
Btw, just wanted to say that the biathlon events are really really cool. Probably my favorite events of the winter olympics along with the downhill events. Practical military application too for the biathlon. The Norwegians, Danes and Italians all had alpine sniper regiments back in the day.
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Feb 18, 2010 12:06:47 GMT -5
You guys are more informed with the sport than I am, no doubt, so I am certainly not coming in as any sort of expert. I am a fan however, and, to use the expression: "I know what I like." SirSaxa nailed it on the head: Shaun White is that good. His composure, grace and sheer power are as good or better than anyone else that I have seen. Time in and time out, you can count on a complete run from him. I'm not saying anything bad about anyone else, but from an outsider's perspective, he deserves all that he gets.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Feb 18, 2010 12:48:36 GMT -5
So wait,
If I had gone out there and done my personal best on snowboard, I should have won the gold?
When did this become fifth grade gym?
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Feb 18, 2010 12:51:42 GMT -5
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Feb 18, 2010 12:55:39 GMT -5
Let me start out by saying that when I am talk about Shaun's run I am talking about his first one, not his second one (which rightly won gold). But thats the thing about snowboarding in the olympics: its not like the traditional Olympic sports in any way. There are a couple of things that judges look at that the avg olympic viewer doesn't know. 1) Progression: the IOC and the FIS (btw why is snowboarding regulated by a skiing federation) said when they added snowboarding to the olympics that they would give extra bonus to riders who progressed the sport during competition (aka doing a trick that had not been seen before). IE: Shaun White has progressed the sport w/ his double cork 1080s and 1260 BUT for this Olympics (and in competition in general), Louie Vito landed the 1260 before Shaun did (both landed it in their second run, hence why Shaun's second run should have been gold). 2) Flow: when doing tricks in the half-pipe, it is easier to spin one way or another depending on the rider's stance, style, and just the physics of the pipe. If you were to spin the easy way every time it shouldn't be enough to win the gold and also the "flow" wouldn't look as good. If you switch up your spins it ups the difficulty but at the same time can make the run look smooth and have better "flow". For example, it seems this olympics they put a lot on flow because they docked Louie Vito big time on his second run, even though it was the most technical of the day, because it did not have the best flow. Now I'm sure you are thinking "Shaun's run looked pretty smooth" but the thing is that both his double cork 1080s and the regular 1080 at the end of the run (which he switched out for the dbl cork mctwist 1260 in the second run) were spun the "easy" way (obviously all subjective b/c 1080s aren't easy for the avg person) and he had so much air time he had time to spin it slower and make it look smooth. Where as the Fin spun not only every direction that you could but he didn't put it together in the "easiest" sequence but more in the more difficult, technical, and smoother way, creating a better "flow". 3) Style: Shuan definitely did have one of the best styles on his run of this Olympics but style is the most vague judging criteria ever. (Although I think the Japenese guy w/ the dreads had the best style, esp w/ his inverted rodeo 540) 4) Finally the Judges do not (or at least should not) put extra importance on the amplitude (height out of the pipe). It is not one of their criteria but obviously amplitude is important because it gives you more time in the air to do your tricks so you can "float" the spins a little more. Part of the reason why Shaun looks so smooth and has a lot of style because he gets so much air so he does just "float" the spins and has plenty of time to get fully around the spin and lined up to straight across the pipe for his next hit. One thing that they changed this year that I liked a lot is requiring at least one of the hits to be a straight air. Surprising to most people, when you get to that level and that speed, it is easier to spin out of the pipe then just straight air it. The straight air helps show how much composure the riders have in the air and also it gives you a chance to add more style (and more recognizable style when not in slow mo) with your grab and tweak. Sorry, I should have explained more my first statement. PS: Would you rather have a gold medal winner be the rider who did their safety run or the rider who pushed themselves further then they ever have in competition? Most of the internet disagrees. Progression isn't adding new tricks, according to these links. It's the flow of the event, from what I can tell. Amplitude is definitely considered. The announcers agreed and so did the judges. link2006 RulesAlso, you know who I want to win? The person with the best run. We get it. You think White is a sell-out. Whatever. He still had the two best runs yesterday and it wasn't close.
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Post by HometownHoya on Feb 18, 2010 14:03:25 GMT -5
So wait, If I had gone out there and done my personal best on snowboard, I should have won the gold? When did this become fifth grade gym? Thats not the point, these are all world class snowboarders that can do all the same tricks as shaun minus 1-3. Their personal best is better then Shaun's safety run.Shuan's first run WASNT better then Vito's second or the fin's second!! My point is that because Shaun is Shaun (and he has been the best competition snowboarder for about the last 6 years), the judges give him a score boost. Its not Shaun's fault but its something I have noticed a few times going back to the 2005 X-Games. Yes, obviously I am jealous of Shaun, but I never meant to have it come across that I don't think that he is dominant snowboarder and competitor. My issue isn't with Shaun. I'm sorry, I'm just a nitpicky snowboarder and realize the difficulty of the tricks ALL the snowboarders do. And realize that even though they aren't going as high out of the pipe they are doing just as difficult and technical tricks as Shaun. Just look at this: Vito's second run: Dbl Cork 1080, Cab Dbl Cork 1080, Straight Air (dope Method though), 720, Dbl Cork McTwist 1260 (first one ever in competition). Shaun's first run: Straight Air (huge but he went bigger in xgames), Dbl Cork 1080, Cab Dbl Cork 1080, Alley-oop 540, regular 1080 Now I realize that is a lot of is lingo but their runs were the same except the last 2 tricks and Vito's last 2 were 4years of progression better then Shaun's last 2. Like I said though, I'm just being nitpicky and Shaun's second run was DEFINITELY deserving of the Gold And SF, in snowboarding progression is the addition/tweaking of tricks to progress the sport further. The "flow of the event" may be the "flow" that I explained earlier? I guess I was wrong about the amplitude, I apologize, didn't realize they had started including that in the judging.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Feb 18, 2010 15:09:27 GMT -5
Holy Crap! The US men's curling team is positively snakebit.
I cannot comprehend how they just lost that. Un-frickin-believable.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Feb 18, 2010 15:43:06 GMT -5
Question:
Anyone using the NBC Olympics Web site, is there something I am missing? I see curling and hockey every day, which is all fine, but I never see anything else.
I know that the women's super combined is going on right now, but for some reason, I can't watch that online. True, my attention at the moment is focused exclusively on USA hockey, but there are breaks between periods.
Also, it's a little weird that NBC labels certain events "WATCH NOW LIVE" in big red letters, when these are events that have already taken place, thus fooling idiots like me into watching the Czech-Slovakia hockey game (not that I minded; it was a great game, and in his grand tradition, Zdeno Chara screwed his own team pretty badly)
Anyway, I thought that was pretty stupid by NBC (the first part, not the second part - the second part is stupid too, but I blame myself for not paying attention), but maybe I'm missing something.
(Yes, we all know I haven't worked more than 5 minutes today, but that's not the point. It all comes out in the wash. Since I spent most of the fall working many late nights and almost every weekend, I don't feel too guilty about basically loafing for a whole day.)
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Feb 18, 2010 15:47:30 GMT -5
the nbc site SUCKS. It's way too hard in the year 2010 to get live results for these games. My FIOS tv guide swore to me the USA Norway hockey game was on at noon est today, which is interesting because it starts at 3est. I'm amazed that hockey gets red-headed step child status from NBC when we are talking about the US team. USA network? Seriously?
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The Stig
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Post by The Stig on Feb 18, 2010 15:49:25 GMT -5
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Feb 18, 2010 15:51:42 GMT -5
are you saying the gold medal ice hockey game isn't on NBC?
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Feb 18, 2010 16:26:29 GMT -5
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The Stig
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Post by The Stig on Feb 18, 2010 16:37:49 GMT -5
are you saying the gold medal ice hockey game isn't on NBC? The USA-Canada game will be on MSNBC, which means it isn't on HD for a lot of DC people. The gold medal game will be on NBC, but the bronze medal game will be on MSNBC.
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The Stig
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Post by The Stig on Feb 18, 2010 16:38:49 GMT -5
And the US mens' curling team needs a new skip!
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Feb 18, 2010 17:17:06 GMT -5
NBC did not have the Men's OR Women's Downhill on live. Not on ANY of their channels. This is one of the main arguments being made by ABC/ESPN as to why they should get the Olympics -- because they cover LIVE sports LIVE. And they have a ton of channels. Of course, they also have a ton of obligations to cover College hoops and such.
Maybe in 4 years we'll all be able to watch this stuff live, anywhere, on our IPads!
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Feb 19, 2010 19:05:36 GMT -5
US Ski team really having an outstanding Olympics! The men and women have each earned THREE medals in Alpine skiing, for a total of 6. And there are still plenty of events yet to come.
Truly incredible how much better the US is doing these days.
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