Elvado
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,080
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Post by Elvado on Nov 18, 2009 21:26:23 GMT -5
Sarah Palin connects with people who work, pay their own bills, meet the mortgage and take their own kids to games. This thread has also made me think of another issue I have with this whole Palin-embodied movement, though not an issue that comes up exclusively w/ her. Why is it that "hard working" and "people who work" are phrases used to describe people who do what we would more commonly consider "labor" or "blue collar work"? You know, I've busted my ass in school for a long time now, and when I get out, I know for a fact that I'll be lucky to ever work as few as 40 hours a week in my life. The lawyers on this board work just as hard as anyone else, as do those of us working in the financial industry, in politics, in media, in academia, etc. These jobs require just as much, if not more, "work" than any other. Granted, it's a different kind of work. But why does "people who work, pay their own bills, meet the mortgage, and take their kids to games" (typically what we think of as "hard working America")—why is that pretty much the exclusive rhetorical territory of the guy who spends 40–60 hours a week hauling bricks, fixing toilets, moving furniture, working the assembly line, driving a truck, or manning the night shift (all very respectable and worthwhile jobs, no doubt)? Sure, I'll be in an office rather than in the factory, but I can promise you I'll be working every damn bit as hard as these people. So how about we stop dividing people by this artificial and completely inaccurate "hard working" and "not hard working," and instead figure out a more accurate way to describe the group of people we're talking about. Because I can assure you, the difference b/t a Palin supporter and me IS NOT that the Palin supporter does (or ever will) work harder than I will, nor pay more bills than I will, pay a mortgage more willingly than I will, or bring kids to games more than I will. If the line we really mean to draw is income, then let's say that. If it's education, let's say that. If it's the kind of work being done, let's say that. But enough with trying to make someone like me feel like I'm somehow not working quite as hard as Joe the Plumber and that his work ethic must allow him to see something that I just don't understand. No, I work pretty God damn hard myself. So why is it really that you think the Palin supporter and I don't see eye-to-eye? Touchy touchy. The distinction, perhaps inartfully drawn, is between people who go to work each day and meet their own obligations (barely or not so barely) and are continually marginalized by the intelligentsia and liberal elite. I believe the Left used to refer to them as "flyover country". Many of these people, who are drawn to ms. Palin are sick and tired of being talked down to by Washington and are equally sick and tired of watching those who don't work reap the benefits of government largesse that they pay for through confiscatory tax policy. In large measure, many Palin supporters are sick of making the rain that fills the sponges.
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Nov 18, 2009 21:57:18 GMT -5
In fairness, we still refer to it as "flyover country" or "layover country" depending on the location. Electoral success in 2008 created problems, however, due to red states turning blue in this category of location. Take Indiana as an example. What perhaps is telling is that some Republicans believe that you have to dumb things down with a Sarah Palin in order to relate to these folks. Obama seemed to have no trouble, and he is "professorial" or a softie who can't eat a bagel without lox and capers.
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Post by hoosierhoya on Nov 18, 2009 22:00:58 GMT -5
Feel bad for this Hoya who had to interview people who camped out at one of her book-signings:
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Cambridge
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Canes Pugnaces
Posts: 5,301
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Post by Cambridge on Nov 19, 2009 14:01:16 GMT -5
Sarah Palin connects with people who work, pay their own bills, meet the mortgage and take their own kids to games. This thread has also made me think of another issue I have with this whole Palin-embodied movement, though not an issue that comes up exclusively w/ her. Why is it that "hard working" and "people who work" are phrases used to describe people who do what we would more commonly consider "labor" or "blue collar work"? You know, I've busted my ass in school for a long time now, and when I get out, I know for a fact that I'll be lucky to ever work as few as 40 hours a week in my life. The lawyers on this board work just as hard as anyone else, as do those of us working in the financial industry, in politics, in media, in academia, etc. These jobs require just as much, if not more, "work" than any other. Granted, it's a different kind of work. But why does "people who work, pay their own bills, meet the mortgage, and take their kids to games" (typically what we think of as "hard working America")—why is that pretty much the exclusive rhetorical territory of the guy who spends 40–60 hours a week hauling bricks, fixing toilets, moving furniture, working the assembly line, driving a truck, or manning the night shift (all very respectable and worthwhile jobs, no doubt)? Sure, I'll be in an office rather than in the factory, but I can promise you I'll be working every damn bit as hard as these people. So how about we stop dividing people by this artificial and completely inaccurate "hard working" and "not hard working," and instead figure out a more accurate way to describe the group of people we're talking about. Because I can assure you, the difference b/t a Palin supporter and me IS NOT that the Palin supporter does (or ever will) work harder than I will, nor pay more bills than I will, pay a mortgage more willingly than I will, or bring kids to games more than I will. If the line we really mean to draw is income, then let's say that. If it's education, let's say that. If it's the kind of work being done, let's say that. But enough with trying to make someone like me feel like I'm somehow not working quite as hard as Joe the Plumber and that his work ethic must allow him to see something that I just don't understand. No, I work pretty God damn hard myself. So why is it really that you think the Palin supporter and I don't see eye-to-eye? I agree with this sentiment. It's all rhetoric and its unnecessarily divisive.
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Cambridge
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Canes Pugnaces
Posts: 5,301
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Post by Cambridge on Nov 19, 2009 14:03:39 GMT -5
In large measure, many Palin supporters are sick of making the rain that fills the sponges. Kudos for the great sound bite, but what the Edited does that even mean? Are you somehow implying that us elites are exploiting the underclass? I'm sorry, but when did you start reading Marx? I'm shocked, shocked that the right has stumbled into pinko rhetoric.
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EasyEd
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 7,272
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Post by EasyEd on Nov 19, 2009 14:17:04 GMT -5
Guess MSNBC sends Norah O'Donnell to book signings only when it involves a superstar.
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Post by Coast2CoastHoya on Nov 19, 2009 14:41:48 GMT -5
She's definitely a superstar. People are -- for good or ill -- fascinated by her, and her life/politics/ideology resonates with a portion of the electorate. She's got the looks, the style, the delivery, and the oh-so-superstar "I wonder what she's gonna do next!" quality.
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SirSaxa
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 747
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Post by SirSaxa on Nov 19, 2009 14:45:38 GMT -5
She's definitely a superstar. People are -- for good or ill -- fascinated by her, and her life/politics/ideology resonates with a portion of the electorate. She's got the looks, the style, the delivery, and the oh-so-superstar "I wonder what she's gonna do next!" quality. Exactly, just like her fellow superstars Paris and Britney.
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EasyEd
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 7,272
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Post by EasyEd on Nov 19, 2009 14:46:45 GMT -5
She's definitely a superstar. People are -- for good or ill -- fascinated by her, and her life/politics/ideology resonates with a portion of the electorate. She's got the looks, the style, the delivery, and the oh-so-superstar "I wonder what she's gonna do next!" quality. Exactly, just like her fellow superstars Paris and Britney. And Barack Obama.
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Post by strummer8526 on Nov 19, 2009 15:13:29 GMT -5
This thread has also made me think of another issue I have with this whole Palin-embodied movement, though not an issue that comes up exclusively w/ her. Why is it that "hard working" and "people who work" are phrases used to describe people who do what we would more commonly consider "labor" or "blue collar work"? You know, I've busted my ass in school for a long time now, and when I get out, I know for a fact that I'll be lucky to ever work as few as 40 hours a week in my life. The lawyers on this board work just as hard as anyone else, as do those of us working in the financial industry, in politics, in media, in academia, etc. These jobs require just as much, if not more, "work" than any other. Granted, it's a different kind of work. But why does "people who work, pay their own bills, meet the mortgage, and take their kids to games" (typically what we think of as "hard working America")—why is that pretty much the exclusive rhetorical territory of the guy who spends 40–60 hours a week hauling bricks, fixing toilets, moving furniture, working the assembly line, driving a truck, or manning the night shift (all very respectable and worthwhile jobs, no doubt)? Sure, I'll be in an office rather than in the factory, but I can promise you I'll be working every damn bit as hard as these people. So how about we stop dividing people by this artificial and completely inaccurate "hard working" and "not hard working," and instead figure out a more accurate way to describe the group of people we're talking about. Because I can assure you, the difference b/t a Palin supporter and me IS NOT that the Palin supporter does (or ever will) work harder than I will, nor pay more bills than I will, pay a mortgage more willingly than I will, or bring kids to games more than I will. If the line we really mean to draw is income, then let's say that. If it's education, let's say that. If it's the kind of work being done, let's say that. But enough with trying to make someone like me feel like I'm somehow not working quite as hard as Joe the Plumber and that his work ethic must allow him to see something that I just don't understand. No, I work pretty God damn hard myself. So why is it really that you think the Palin supporter and I don't see eye-to-eye? Touchy touchy. The distinction, perhaps inartfully drawn, is between people who go to work each day and meet their own obligations (barely or not so barely) and are continually marginalized by the intelligentsia and liberal elite. I believe the Left used to refer to them as "flyover country". Many of these people, who are drawn to ms. Palin are sick and tired of being talked down to by Washington and are equally sick and tired of watching those who don't work reap the benefits of government largesse that they pay for through confiscatory tax policy. In large measure, many Palin supporters are sick of making the rain that fills the sponges. Your first response proves my point. You again separate "people who go to work each day and meet their own obligations" from the "intelligentsia and liberal elite." Ya know what? The "intelligentsia and liberal elite" go to work each day and meet their own obligations. And the fact that the phrase "liberal elite" raises such scorn in certain circles is absolute proof that the "liberal elite" can be EVERY BIT as marginalized as anyone else. It just depends on who's doing the marginalizing. And as long as the Palin crowd has FoxNews, and 3 of the last 5 presidents, and just won the governorship of two states, I refuse to accept that you're all that down-trodden in this country.
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theexorcist
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,506
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Post by theexorcist on Nov 19, 2009 15:30:25 GMT -5
Touchy touchy. The distinction, perhaps inartfully drawn, is between people who go to work each day and meet their own obligations (barely or not so barely) and are continually marginalized by the intelligentsia and liberal elite. I believe the Left used to refer to them as "flyover country". Many of these people, who are drawn to ms. Palin are sick and tired of being talked down to by Washington and are equally sick and tired of watching those who don't work reap the benefits of government largesse that they pay for through confiscatory tax policy. In large measure, many Palin supporters are sick of making the rain that fills the sponges. Your first response proves my point. You again separate "people who go to work each day and meet their own obligations" from the "intelligentsia and liberal elite." Ya know what? The "intelligentsia and liberal elite" go to work each day and meet their own obligations. And the fact that the phrase "liberal elite" raises such scorn in certain circles is absolute proof that the "liberal elite" can be EVERY BIT as marginalized as anyone else. It just depends on who's doing the marginalizing. And as long as the Palin crowd has FoxNews, and 3 of the last 5 presidents, and just won the governorship of two states, I refuse to accept that you're all that down-trodden in this country. I'm not downtrodden. But I will say that the people who really are don't get a fair shake in this country and very rarely does either party stand up for them. And if you want to be a pompous half-wit and argue that professors and investment bankers and lawyers are working as hard or contribute as much to society as coal miners, Army sergeants, and guys who work the late shift, well, wow, get to it. Best of luck making a case that someone with a PhD in economic theory is as marginalized as a guy who installs HVACs for a living. Waah, going for tenure is hard! Go back to looking at People of WalMart and shopping at Whole Foods and mocking anybody who doesn't always dress as nice as you do (except when you pull your GI Joe shirt from twenty years ago to accentuate your hipster wardrobe), but don't pull this crud about how you're as marginalized as they are. It's exceptionally pretentious and incredibly insulting.
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SSHoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
"Forget it Jake, it's Chinatown."
Posts: 18,265
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Post by SSHoya on Nov 19, 2009 15:44:26 GMT -5
Discuss (hahaha)
AP NewsBreak: Army Keeping Media From Palin Event
* Sign In to E-Mail * Print
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS Published: November 19, 2009
Filed at 3:20 p.m. ET
RALEIGH, N.C. (AP) -- The U.S. Army plans to prevent media from covering Sarah Palin's appearance at Fort Bragg, fearing the event will turn into political grandstanding against President Barack Obama, officials said Thursday.
Fort Bragg spokesman Tom McCollum told The Associated Press that Bragg's garrison commander and other Army officials had decided to keep media away from Palin's book promotion. He said the Army did not want the Monday event to become a platform to express political opinions ''directed against the commander in chief.''
''The main reason is to stop this from turning into a political platform,'' he said. ''There are Army regulations that basically prohibit military reservations from becoming political platforms by politicians.''
He said only one politician can use that platform, ''and that person does it as our commander in chief.''
Other members of the public would be permitted to attend the event.
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Post by strummer8526 on Nov 19, 2009 15:53:06 GMT -5
Your first response proves my point. You again separate "people who go to work each day and meet their own obligations" from the "intelligentsia and liberal elite." Ya know what? The "intelligentsia and liberal elite" go to work each day and meet their own obligations. And the fact that the phrase "liberal elite" raises such scorn in certain circles is absolute proof that the "liberal elite" can be EVERY BIT as marginalized as anyone else. It just depends on who's doing the marginalizing. And as long as the Palin crowd has FoxNews, and 3 of the last 5 presidents, and just won the governorship of two states, I refuse to accept that you're all that down-trodden in this country. I'm not downtrodden. But I will say that the people who really are don't get a fair shake in this country and very rarely does either party stand up for them. And if you want to be a pompous half-wit and argue that professors and investment bankers and lawyers are working as hard or contribute as much to society as coal miners, Army sergeants, and guys who work the late shift, well, wow, get to it. Best of luck making a case that someone with a PhD in economic theory is as marginalized as a guy who installs HVACs for a living. Waah, going for tenure is hard! Go back to looking at People of WalMart and shopping at Whole Foods and mocking anybody who doesn't always dress as nice as you do (except when you pull your GI Joe shirt from twenty years ago to accentuate your hipster wardrobe), but don't pull this crud about how you're as marginalized as they are. It's exceptionally pretentious and incredibly insulting. I'll grant you that academia and the military are at two opposite ends of a spectrum, and don't fit with what I'm talking about. But actually, I'm insulted by the fact that you think that every guy out there who happens to put on work boots rather than a suit every day is somehow working "harder" just because of the nature of the work he's doing. Your average blue collar worker spends nowhere NEAR the amount of hours a week working as do many lawyers and businessmen. Just because the coal miner wears a hard hat and the lawyer doesn't DOES NOT mean that the coal miner works any harder. His work is physical. The lawyer's is more mental. But you're out of your mind if you think that it's unfair to compare the two. And for the party of "personal responsibility," it sure sounds like this "marginalization" stuff is nothing more than playing the "victimization" card. If you can't go to school, get a degree, and get out of the mine, then that's where you work, and I respect the work done. But don't turn that into an insult to me because I have been able to use personal ability and personal responsibility to do something that requires just as much hard work but happens to take place in an office. People of Walmart is hilarious. I've never been in a Whole Foods in my entire life. I pride myself on not dressing all that nicely, and there's certainly nothing hipster about my wardrobe. Twenty years ago, I was 4 years old, so the GI Joe shirt is just a little too small. I'm still going to spend more of my life working a lot harder than your average HVAC installer.
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Nevada Hoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 18,427
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Post by Nevada Hoya on Nov 19, 2009 15:57:58 GMT -5
I think Palin sealed the deal for Obama.
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theexorcist
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,506
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Post by theexorcist on Nov 19, 2009 15:59:11 GMT -5
Strummer:
Wow. Just, yeah, just wow.
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Elvado
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,080
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Post by Elvado on Nov 19, 2009 16:34:23 GMT -5
I'm not downtrodden. But I will say that the people who really are don't get a fair shake in this country and very rarely does either party stand up for them. And if you want to be a pompous half-wit and argue that professors and investment bankers and lawyers are working as hard or contribute as much to society as coal miners, Army sergeants, and guys who work the late shift, well, wow, get to it. Best of luck making a case that someone with a PhD in economic theory is as marginalized as a guy who installs HVACs for a living. Waah, going for tenure is hard! Go back to looking at People of WalMart and shopping at Whole Foods and mocking anybody who doesn't always dress as nice as you do (except when you pull your GI Joe shirt from twenty years ago to accentuate your hipster wardrobe), but don't pull this crud about how you're as marginalized as they are. It's exceptionally pretentious and incredibly insulting. I'll grant you that academia and the military are at two opposite ends of a spectrum, and don't fit with what I'm talking about. But actually, I'm insulted by the fact that you think that every guy out there who happens to put on work boots rather than a suit every day is somehow working "harder" just because of the nature of the work he's doing. Your average blue collar worker spends nowhere NEAR the amount of hours a week working as do many lawyers and businessmen. Just because the coal miner wears a hard hat and the lawyer doesn't DOES NOT mean that the coal miner works any harder. His work is physical. The lawyer's is more mental. But you're out of your mind if you think that it's unfair to compare the two. And for the party of "personal responsibility," it sure sounds like this "marginalization" stuff is nothing more than playing the "victimization" card. If you can't go to school, get a degree, and get out of the mine, then that's where you work, and I respect the work done. But don't turn that into an insult to me because I have been able to use personal ability and personal responsibility to do something that requires just as much hard work but happens to take place in an office. People of Walmart is hilarious. I've never been in a Whole Foods in my entire life. I pride myself on not dressing all that nicely, and there's certainly nothing hipster about my wardrobe. Twenty years ago, I was 4 years old, so the GI Joe shirt is just a little too small. I'm still going to spend more of my life working a lot harder than your average HVAC installer. You should be very proud of yourself. I bet you do work really hard. I'm surprised someone who works as hard as you apparently do has no problem with someone who works not at all reaping the benefit. But that's what makes liberals better human beings than the rest of us. I have people in my life who don't work and reap the benefits of my labors. I call them my children. When they grow up, they will work. I simply resent our government's effort to create a permanent class of layabout children who produce nothing and have all their needs met. Call me cruel, call me ignorant, just don't call on me to support the children of others. It's not my job and it damn sure isn't the government's.
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Boz
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
123 Fireballs!
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Post by Boz on Nov 19, 2009 16:40:17 GMT -5
"I'm still going to spend more of my life working a lot harder than your average HVAC installer."
Look, I'm not going to make a big deal about this, but I think it's impossible for anyone who has worked in a blue collar field for any significant time before moving on to a more business, academic or managerial profession to make this statement.
I managed a restaurant kitchen for two years before moving into my chosen field of corporate communications. I may not have had to think as much in the former job, but I can tell you that I worked a LOT harder in the restaurant. A 12-hour day in the kitchen or on the line was a short one. A week when I got one day off was the norm, not the exception. And no, I didn't get to "leave it all behind" when I changed out of my kitchen pants and shirt. I would work when I wasn't "working" on supplies and invoices.
I am not saying I work LESS hard now, but there is no way I work harder.
Similarly, when in school at Goergetown, I worked summers for residence life, moving furniture, installing AC, painting, landscaping, the whole deal. Do that for a summer or work on a road crew for a summer and THEN come back tell me you're working harder in your office. Again, your mental skills might be challenged more, but you are not working harder. No way, no how.
Even today, I work regularly with technicians who are out in the field. I do things that they do not have skills for, but they do things that I do not have skills for. They may not have my academic background, but they have a trade education that is every bit as challenging. And they work just as hard, if not harder than I do.
It's very easy to assume your effort is greater than that of others...until you try on their work boots for a while.
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Post by Coast2CoastHoya on Nov 19, 2009 17:30:31 GMT -5
Dadgummit. I just wrote this long, awesome post and the server rejected the reply. Ugh. Basically, the point was that I think if someone's hard working, responsible, acts legally and ethically, produces value at work, and makes good product, they should be respected regardless of the work they do. Mechanic, lawyer, retail salesman, cook, banker, miner ... in a developed society, all these are important jobs. I don't understand why we use divise and derisive rhetoric in conjunction with any valuable type of work, or why people think they're better or worse than someone in a different line of work. And some other stuff
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Post by Coast2CoastHoya on Nov 19, 2009 17:32:55 GMT -5
She's definitely a superstar. People are -- for good or ill -- fascinated by her, and her life/politics/ideology resonates with a portion of the electorate. She's got the looks, the style, the delivery, and the oh-so-superstar "I wonder what she's gonna do next!" quality. Exactly, just like her fellow superstars Paris and Britney. Exactly, Saxa!
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Boz
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
123 Fireballs!
Posts: 10,355
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Post by Boz on Nov 19, 2009 17:34:52 GMT -5
Speaking as someone with 5,000 posts, in retrospect, I really probably should not be commenting at all on the topic of "hard work."
(and dammit, how did I miss the opportunity to do something awesome as a 5,000th post -- I have to go back and look to see what I wrote; it was probably something really stupid like, "Shut up, hifi!" A legitimate comment, to be sure, and worthy of repeating, but hardly worthy of a milestone. )
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