jgalt
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by jgalt on Sept 3, 2009 18:54:35 GMT -5
Lets just hope no one had cream cheese on their bagels because then we are really in for it.
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PhillyHoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by PhillyHoya on Sept 3, 2009 20:00:55 GMT -5
Well, they can have cream cheese as long as they brought their own. If McD paid for it, we're screwed even more.
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Nevada Hoya
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Post by Nevada Hoya on Sept 3, 2009 21:22:50 GMT -5
Strange that this should happen. They (the athletic office) are usually scrupulous about any possible violations, even monitoring this board.
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CAHoya07
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Post by CAHoya07 on Sept 4, 2009 8:08:13 GMT -5
lets move on and stay TOTALLY away from any possible bad looking stuff at all go hoyas its almost february Yes, lets sweep it under the rug and pretend it never happened. That's a sure fire way to make sure it doesn't happen again. I agree with you, but let's not blow this out of whack. Is this bad? Yes. Should Georgetown do everything in its power to make sure this doesn't happen again, anywhere in its athletic department? Yes. Is this the end of the world? No. I mean, what can we do as supporters? Let the Athletic Department know that we think this is unacceptable, and that if something like this happens again, they are jeopardizing our support.
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GPHoya
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Post by GPHoya on Sept 4, 2009 8:16:48 GMT -5
Beyond an understanding of original sin, the root causes for this violation are easy to understand and with the benefit of hindsight clearly involve a case of putting a fox in charge of the chicken coop.
As a starting point, Georgetown tries to compete in baseball with hardly any scholarships. We recruit players who could get greater aid from other programs by selling them on the University and helping them out with work study and loans. Our coaches likely feel guilty about the lack of financial support that our players receive for the commitment that they make to the sport and the players likely feel short-changed and entitled to more because they are American and all Americans feel entitled.
We then have the players do the work for the coaches who are caught in the guilt/entitlement web and have no interest in squeezing a nickel on what the kids get paid. Hours get padded because everybody does it and no one is hurt and the kids are still really getting short-changed because if they went to X, they would be getting a full ride. On top of that, no one is auditing the time records to see that everyone is putting in the same number of hours every week.
Surprise over this violation is like being shocked to learn that there is gambling in Casablanca. If we are offering work study, the work can't be for the team or coach or even athletic department. The supervisor needs to be trained and the relationship needs to be monitored. The arrangement that led to the violation was certain to lead to a violation unless you don't understand original sin--and Jesuit institutions should not be guilty of that.
Since this was an institutional flaw, I see no need to villify the coaches or players who acted about the way I would expect them to act when presented with the circumstance. Hindsight says Georgetown should have thought this through, but it was an easy and convenient way to subsidize an underfunded baseball program and get the diamond maintained. No one was trying to get a competitive advantage--they were just trying to have work study do what scholarships should have done.
I hope the lesson is learned, but I expect that corners will always be cut by imperfect human beings--even at institutions that try to rise above the rough and tumble of the commercial world. If it causes us to tone down our self-righteousness and schadenfreude about other villains being caught, that might be a good thing.
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theexorcist
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Post by theexorcist on Sept 4, 2009 9:04:11 GMT -5
Beyond an understanding of original sin, the root causes for this violation are easy to understand and with the benefit of hindsight clearly involve a case of putting a fox in charge of the chicken coop. As a starting point, Georgetown tries to compete in baseball with hardly any scholarships. We recruit players who could get greater aid from other programs by selling them on the University and helping them out with work study and loans. Our coaches likely feel guilty about the lack of financial support that our players receive for the commitment that they make to the sport and the players likely feel short-changed and entitled to more because they are American and all Americans feel entitled. We then have the players do the work for the coaches who are caught in the guilt/entitlement web and have no interest in squeezing a nickel on what the kids get paid. Hours get padded because everybody does it and no one is hurt and the kids are still really getting short-changed because if they went to X, they would be getting a full ride. On top of that, no one is auditing the time records to see that everyone is putting in the same number of hours every week. Surprise over this violation is like being shocked to learn that there is gambling in Casablanca. If we are offering work study, the work can't be for the team or coach or even athletic department. The supervisor needs to be trained and the relationship needs to be monitored. The arrangement that led to the violation was certain to lead to a violation unless you don't understand original sin--and Jesuit institutions should not be guilty of that. Since this was an institutional flaw, I see no need to villify the coaches or players who acted about the way I would expect them to act when presented with the circumstance. Hindsight says Georgetown should have thought this through, but it was an easy and convenient way to subsidize an underfunded baseball program and get the diamond maintained. No one was trying to get a competitive advantage--they were just trying to have work study do what scholarships should have done. I hope the lesson is learned, but I expect that corners will always be cut by imperfect human beings--even at institutions that try to rise above the rough and tumble of the commercial world. If it causes us to tone down our self-righteousness and schadenfreude about other villains being caught, that might be a good thing. "Everybody does it" has not been, is not now, and never will be justification for breaking the rules.
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GPHoya
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Post by GPHoya on Sept 4, 2009 10:01:32 GMT -5
I think you have missed my point.
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Filo
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Post by Filo on Sept 4, 2009 10:14:34 GMT -5
"Everybody does it" has not been, is not now, and never will be justification for breaking the rules. I think you have missed my point. Hilarious. You think? But that was such a thought-provoking and, dare I say, groundbreaking response to your post.
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hoyaalf
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
I like what your doing very much. Why squirrel hate me?
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Post by hoyaalf on Sept 4, 2009 11:20:46 GMT -5
Can't we take the position that they were being recruited by investment banks, etc. and this was a practicum sort of experience?
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Sept 4, 2009 11:35:23 GMT -5
GP wrote:
As a starting point, Georgetown tries to compete in baseball with hardly any scholarships. We recruit players who could get greater aid from other programs by selling them on the University and helping them out with work study and loans. Our coaches likely feel guilty about the lack of financial support that our players receive for the commitment that they make to the sport
I'm not sure if you are saying that Georgetown is especially difficult to recruit baseball players to because they have an even lower number of schollies than other programs or just that the nature of baseball schollies, which are virtually always only a partial to begin with, combined with the higher tuition make the task especially daunting at GU. Either way, I am totally sympathetic to college baseball coaches. As some of you know, college baseball is really my passion. I go to probably 40 games a year or more. And I think that the college baseball coach has, probably the toughest job of all college coaches. In addition to all the same things the other teams have -- recruiting, selling kids on both the program and the institution, putting out a winning team, making sure the kids go to class and stay eligible and ultimately graduate etc... -- the college baseball coach has to deal with the minor leagues and very limited scholarships. That is unique to baseball. Here you have a team of up to around 40 players with a conference squad of 25 young student athletes, but you only have a total of 11.7 scholarships to give them as a whole. Even if you only consider the conference/travel squad, that still works out to less than half a scholly per player. When you add the competition that professional baseball gives, I think it's pretty easy to argue that the college baseball coach has the most difficult job of college coaches.
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seaweed
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Post by seaweed on Sept 4, 2009 12:40:42 GMT -5
Gosh GP, that was a really eloquent defense of cheating. We are lucky to have some people around with nice limber morals who can see the institutional unfairness of only paying for half of a young man's education in return for us letting him play sports. I know I feel terrible guilt any time I find myself unable to come up with LEGAL $ for the poor struggling person NOT ON THE GU BASEBALL TEAM who can't come up money for food or shelter, so I can totally understand why baseball program personnel would BREAK THE RULES to help out those poor kids who are only getting half of their college tuition paid for. Either you know something that I don't (like a lot of this money went to a particular person with significant special need) or you are making some lame rationalization of a VIOLATION that probably didn't net any one person $ for more than a few cases of beer (and don't pretend that is not how it got spent). I would hope your understanding of RIGHT and WRONG was better than that, but doesn't sound like it.
CHEATERS, making life harder for everyone else, then gripping about their plight. IT'S A GAME MAN. Either play by the rules or don't play. It is that simple.
And no, it does not have anything to do with the notion that children enter this world under the pall of Original Sin, from which their baptism and faithful practice of religious virtue is meant to protect them. Original Sin is not some "get out of jail free" card or other excuse for misbehaving - if you can't get past the Fall of Man when you need a reason to do (or not do) something, the least of your worries is going to be the NCAA.
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GPHoya
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Post by GPHoya on Sept 4, 2009 12:45:16 GMT -5
Georgetown baseball has five scholarships according to the self-report document appended to the release announcing the violation. Georgetown had planned to go to 8 baseball scholarships, but is staying at 5 as a self-imposed penalty. I do not know what other Big East baseball programs offer, but I have assumed that several offer more support than that for baseball. I gather from your post that you understand that Florida awards 11.7 baseball scholarships which is fewer than I might have speculated, but perhaps that reflects the NCAA's limit. Of course, several years ago, Providence College dropped baseball despite the fact that relatively recent alums include John McDonald with the Jays and Framingham's Lou Merloni, formerly with the Red Sox. Although I am sure I have missed some baseball standouts, the last Georgetown player that I remember being drafted was Kurt Kaull. I am prepared and happy to be corrected/updated on that point. I know that it has been a while since I have seen any Hoyas playing in the Cape League.
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GPHoya
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Post by GPHoya on Sept 4, 2009 13:16:42 GMT -5
Seaweed,
I intended my post to be critical of Georgetown for having set up an arrangement which invited and permitted cheating on time cards which was almost certain to follow if one considers human nature or observes human behavior in a wide variety of settings. Although Georgetown may not have intended to cheat, it properly held itself accountable for establishing an arrangement that facilitated it.
I do not mean to excuse or suggest that there is not personal responsibility on the part of those who participated in the scheme to submit false time cards. I am simply incapable of being surprised that this occurred in a setting which appeared to condone the behavior even among the baptized and those who engage in the faithful practice of religion. I am unwilling to judge the individuals too harshly, though I routinely counsel employers who maintain and apply consistent work rules to discharge employees who submit false time cards even when just cause is contractually required. On the other hand, if the employer allows the supervisor to look the other way, the shame is more on the employer who then attempts to apply the rule selectively without advanced notice.
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Sept 4, 2009 13:33:11 GMT -5
Seaweed, I do not mean to excuse or suggest that there is not personal responsibility on the part of those who participated in the scheme to submit false time cards. Why don't you re-read your post and modify it if you did not mean to excuse those who stole money.
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Sept 4, 2009 14:23:30 GMT -5
easyed, that was well put.
GP, yes, the NCAA limit is 11.7 schollies. In case you're interested about why it's such a strange number, the number used to be 13. Then in one of many efforts to make things more equitable and in the motivation of things like title IX, there was a 10% reduction in certain scholarships (all men's sports). Baseball was one casualty, thus the strange 11.7 number.
As for GU, wow, 5 schollies sure isn't much. My guess is that they only have those for special needs people rather than as a "reward" for being a talented baseball player. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that would make more sense than simply trying to divide up a mere 5 scholarships among at least 25 players. In other words, maybe there are 10 people each getting a half-scholly and 15 who can afford it, paying their own way. Any ideas?
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Jack
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Post by Jack on Sept 4, 2009 14:51:08 GMT -5
As for GU, wow, 5 schollies sure isn't much. My guess is that they only have those for special needs people rather than as a "reward" for being a talented baseball player. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that would make more sense than simply trying to divide up a mere 5 scholarships among at least 25 players. In other words, maybe there are 10 people each getting a half-scholly and 15 who can afford it, paying their own way. Any ideas? I am sure it is exactly the opposite- the scholarships are used to attract the top prospects who would otherwise be getting $ anywhere else, while the back end of the team is filled in by those who are paying their own way. Because GU meets full need for all students, even those "non-scholarship" players would be eligible for the same grants, loans, and, yes, work study that their non-varsity peers would receive. I would also argue that there is a difference between excusing behavior and not vilifying the perpetrators, but I don't really care to get too far into that debate for fear of a failure to show the proper amount of outrage toward people who did the same thing I imagine I would have done.
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GPHoya
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Post by GPHoya on Sept 4, 2009 15:39:12 GMT -5
Jack,
Thank you for correcting my spelling of vilify. Otherwise, I can live with my post.
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Sept 4, 2009 15:54:41 GMT -5
Jack, I guess that could be. And I guess that could be an effective tool. Since virtually no schools (at least 4 year schools), give anything close to a full scholly for a baseball player, then if GU is willing to reserve their 5 for 5 fulls for 5 specific people, then that combined with the quality education that GU offers, it might be effective at convincing 5 elite talents to go there. I don't follow GU baseball much. Have you all had any marquee names come through the program recently?
As for the violation itself, I have tried to pretty much stay out of it, since I really don't know the details. But at least from the surface, it doesn't look like much. If it essentially was claiming hours for travel to and from work or for errands done while "on the clock," then I just don't see it as that big of a deal. If it was made clear that you aren't to claim that time, then that would be different. But from what it seems, a relocating of certain operations created this transportation time. And this was time that originally been compensated, if only because there wasn't any transportation time. I not saying it's totally ok, just that from that limited information, it certainly doesn't look like a major violation.
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Jack
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Post by Jack on Sept 4, 2009 16:07:32 GMT -5
I didn't mean to suggest that GU is giving 5 full grants- I am sure they divide up their equivelancies like other schools, just that their money runs out faster. I only meant that the decisions on how to award scholarship $ almost certainly is based on perceived ability to contribute to the team rather than financial need- theoretically "true" need is taken care of by the overall financial aid structure, and money on top of that goes to the players who would not otherwise come to GU. As noted earlier, GU is not bringing in many future minor leaguers, let alone all stars.
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Sept 4, 2009 16:14:34 GMT -5
I see what you mean, now.
Also, given that the elite baseball players aren't likely to be interested in GU anyway, then it might serve as a good attraction for other less privileged kids who might appreciate both the academics as well as the chance to play college ball. So in other words, this is yet another bad outcome of the absurd scholly limitations of 11.7 anyway.
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