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Post by ilovescruggs on Sept 3, 2009 7:59:56 GMT -5
Here's what I don't understand. If it was a work study program, doesn't that mean that these player essentially defrauded Georgetown for the $61K? So....why doesn't that money go back to the University after it self-reported a violation there it's unlikely the NCAA would have ever found on its own? Or are work study funds supplied by the NCAA?
To be clear, this is bad, but if part of it was recording travel time to and from an off-campus location, a lot of employers compensate for that. That's a little borderline.
Glad Wilk took responsibility for it though. That it happened across several coaches makes me doubt that he was completely ignorant of the situation and even if he was, he shouldn't have been.
Last point, NCAA's silliness strikes again in that the perpetrators of this mess, the departed coaches and players, face no penalties of any kind. Meanwhile, the kids on the team now are completely f'ed over. Justice ... not so much.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Sept 3, 2009 8:27:11 GMT -5
People needs to stop shifting blame to the NCAA on this. This is Georgetown's mess, plain and simple.
This is a case of fraud, and it's a case of student-athletes and coaches defrauding the federal work study program. Where the NCAA has cause to throw the book is that this was not a one-off payment to a player or an act by one coach to beat the system. This took place over seven years, three different athletic administrations, and across multiple assistant baseball coaches, who skated past different athletic and financial aid compliance staffs on this. As coaches came and went (and they did in baseball), someone had to communicate to his successor that this was the way things were done.
Those that participated in this have all graduated, and they got their extra work-study. Georgetown is left to clean up the mess.
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CAHoya07
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Post by CAHoya07 on Sept 3, 2009 8:37:14 GMT -5
I'm no expert on NCAA rules, but yes, compared to what has happened at Memphis and USC, this seems somewhat "minor" for a major violation. I'm glad that Georgetown self-reported it, I would imagine the NCAA penalty would have been worse if we hadn't? I wonder if the NCAA would have discovered the violation on its own, and what would have happened if that were the case.
I hope nothing else like this is happening in any of our other sports. While it does affect and, unfortunately, taints the entire Athletic Department, I hope the problem was confined to baseball, and that this is the last we hear of it.
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Post by HoyasAreHungry on Sept 3, 2009 8:52:22 GMT -5
Highly doubt NCAA would have ever found out about this on their own. Georgetown did the right thing by self reporting this and the team that committed it should be punished (not sure how the coach keeps his job after a major violation under his reign but eh) In general I doubt this was done as a blatant act to defraud anyone....like many have said travel was probably included and and hour here or there was probably off. It is definitely embarrassing for the school but for a rules violation this is better than what usually is found out and punished by the NCAA
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vcjack
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Post by vcjack on Sept 3, 2009 8:53:30 GMT -5
Whats interesting is that from DeGioia's letter is that he implies that moving the team off campus is what allowed the players/coaches to fudge the numbers.
Anyone have insight on how that's a factor?
EDIT: ahh the answer is probably in the earlier posts, including travel time
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Sept 3, 2009 8:54:44 GMT -5
interesting rossyln hoya interesting ... any way shouldnt of happened but lets move on as i said im sure nobody like memphis out there or uconn does ANYTHING at all remotely as bad as this... go hoyas stay clean .. what did zo say about his recruitment by other schools compared to the hoyas go hoyas This attitude is stupid. It's the "the other kids are doing it too" or "I was going as fast as everyone else" sort of defense. I think DFW is right on. And Rosslyn's "math" is only the most optimistic sort. That assumes all 26 players did this for all four years at GU and had work study every since week of every single semester. That's a lot of assumptions and I think it's safe to say the truth is far different. Look, if this had been some misunderstanding, or clerical error, it certainly would not have been a major violation. I think it's safe to ASSUME that the players knew they were doing something wrong and the athletic department was lax in its oversight. Does this bother me as much as most other NCAA violations we hear about, no. But simply because one thinks student-athletes don't get enough aid/compensation, or that Alonzo Mourning had it tough at college, does not make it acceptable to do what was done.
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Post by williambraskyiii on Sept 3, 2009 9:31:36 GMT -5
interesting rossyln hoya interesting ... any way shouldnt of happened but lets move on as i said im sure nobody like memphis out there or uconn does ANYTHING at all remotely as bad as this... go hoyas stay clean .. what did zo say about his recruitment by other schools compared to the hoyas go hoyas This attitude is stupid. It's the "the other kids are doing it too" or "I was going as fast as everyone else" sort of defense. I think DFW is right on. And Rosslyn's "math" is only the most optimistic sort. That assumes all 26 players did this for all four years at GU and had work study every since week of every single semester. That's a lot of assumptions and I think it's safe to say the truth is far different. Look, if this had been some misunderstanding, or clerical error, it certainly would not have been a major violation. I think it's safe to ASSUME that the players knew they were doing something wrong and the athletic department was lax in its oversight. Does this bother me as much as most other NCAA violations we hear about, no. But simply because one thinks student-athletes don't get enough aid/compensation, or that Alonzo Mourning had it tough at college, does not make it acceptable to do what was done. Completely agree. I don't really ever want to see comparison of our athletic program to UConn and Memphis - to provide this kind of relativistic analysis is irresponsible. Also, how is Wilk's head not served up on a platter? I don't know the details about these violations, but as head Coach during almost the entire period of violation, is he not ultimately responsible? I know GU is loyal, but I like to think that our athletic programs have zero tolerance for this sort of crap. I guess since he self-reported, that portrays him in the best light possible.
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rosslynhoya
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Post by rosslynhoya on Sept 3, 2009 9:37:48 GMT -5
People needs to stop shifting blame to the NCAA on this. This is Georgetown's mess, plain and simple. I agree completely and didn't mean to imply otherwise. This is a case of fraud, and it's a case of student-athletes and coaches defrauding the federal work study program. This is where I disagree. If this were a matter of defrauding the FWS program, the feds would be all over this. It's not. An employer can choose to compensate an FWS student for his or her travel time and GU has done this for other FWS students who work at remote locations, e.g., the GU offices on Wisconsin Avenue. The "crime" in this case is apparently a matter of giving an impermissable benefit to a student-athlete. As my "math" showed earlier, the amount of the benefit is ridiculously small compared to the AD's budget and/or an FWS-eligible student's expenses. We're talking such a tiny amount of money over a period of time that there's no way of looking at this as anything other than a clerical error based on a misinterpretation of NCAA regulations. Where the NCAA has cause to throw the book is that this was not a one-off payment to a player or an act by one coach to beat the system. This took place over seven years, three different athletic administrations, and across multiple assistant baseball coaches, who skated past different athletic and financial aid compliance staffs on this. As coaches came and went (and they did in baseball), someone had to communicate to his successor that this was the way things were done. The other way to look at this is that the practice in question was so mundane and so consistently applied over the years that no one questioned whether it was legitimate. How many times did the Athletic Department's books get audited over the past decade? How many different compliance professionals saw this and didn't think anything of it?
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lichoya68
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Post by lichoya68 on Sept 3, 2009 9:57:42 GMT -5
time to move on you all and hoyas NEVER to be close to anything like this again go hoyas
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ahoya2
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Post by ahoya2 on Sept 3, 2009 10:11:08 GMT -5
This is not a minor violation. This is reflects the inattention to details of the Muir/Blanton Jones administration while spending most of their time looking only at big money donors to finance our sports while ignoring our traditional alumni and friends who have faithfully supported our athletic endeavors. Yes, the NCAA is a hypocritical organization run by big football programs, and yes Kentucky basketball would get a pass, but in the end we were negligent and that is not the Georgetown way. Disgraceful
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Jack
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Post by Jack on Sept 3, 2009 10:18:22 GMT -5
This is not a minor violation. This is reflects the inattention to details of the Muir/Blanton Jones administration while spending most of their time looking only at big money donors to finance our sports while ignoring our traditional alumni and friends who have faithfully supported our athletic endeavors. Yes, the NCAA is a hypocritical organization run by big football programs, and yes Kentucky basketball would get a pass, but in the end we were negligent and that is not the Georgetown way. Disgraceful How 'bout the attention to detail of Joe Lang and Adam Brick? Because this stuff started back in 2001, so it's not all about what happened under the most recent AD.
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Sept 3, 2009 10:55:44 GMT -5
This is not a minor violation. This is reflects the inattention to details of the Muir/Blanton Jones administration while spending most of their time looking only at big money donors to finance our sports while ignoring our traditional alumni and friends who have faithfully supported our athletic endeavors. Yes, the NCAA is a hypocritical organization run by big football programs, and yes Kentucky basketball would get a pass, but in the end we were negligent and that is not the Georgetown way. Disgraceful How 'bout the attention to detail of Joe Lang and Adam Brick? Because this stuff started back in 2001, so it's not all about what happened under the most recent AD. Thank you, Jack. This in now way started under AD Muir's administration but, rather, under that of AD Lang. The latter model is still revered in some circles apparently.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Sept 3, 2009 10:57:28 GMT -5
It's a good thing I was never a scholarship athlete at Georgetown. Holy Jebus, but did I fudge my time sheets when working for the Alumni House! I am hereby self-reporting that I probably almost certainly made an extra $50-$100 than I deserved for each semester that I worked there. Hey. I was a hungry -- more importantly, thirsty -- college student. My bad. (OK, technically, that wasn't a work-study job, but I feel guilt and shame nonetheless.) [EDIT: I have since "returned" the money, with interest...in the form of donations. ]
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Sept 3, 2009 11:08:59 GMT -5
It's a good thing I was never a scholarship athlete at Georgetown. Holy Jebus, but did I fudge my time sheets when working for the Alumni House! I am hereby self-reporting that I probably almost certainly made an extra $50-$100 than I deserved for each semester that I worked there. Hey. I was a hungry -- more importantly, thirsty -- college student. My bad. (OK, technically, that wasn't a work-study job, but I feel guilt and shame nonetheless.) [EDIT: I have since "returned" the money, with interest...in the form of donations. ] Now, now now ... good old common sense has no buisiness in a discussion involving emotions and the NCAA. You know better than that.
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Sept 3, 2009 11:16:33 GMT -5
Aside from the fact that the amount of money involved in the aggregate was substantial, I really don't see how this is a "major" violation. If there wasn't any intent to either defraud or to somehow subvert the rules, then I just don't see how this is anything beyond what amounts to a misunderstanding.
Did anyone see anything that suggested that there should have been better internal management to catch such improprieties earlier? That's about the only rationale I can think of for warranting a "major" violation on this.
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hoyabinx
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Post by hoyabinx on Sept 3, 2009 12:47:18 GMT -5
This is not a minor violation. This is reflects the inattention to details of the Muir/Blanton Jones administration while spending most of their time looking only at big money donors to finance our sports while ignoring our traditional alumni and friends who have faithfully supported our athletic endeavors. I really don't see the causation you think is there. How does spending time trying to find donations outside of the normal lines (thus expanding our potential base to help an underfunded department) lead to violations? That makes absolutely no sense and, in my opinion, reveals you have a personal slight against the "new guard" for not greasing you up as much as you'd like for your donation. I think we should be commending Muir and the staff he put in place on this one. They were the ones that actually did pay attention to details . It started before he go here and it was his administration that did the honorable thing to find and self report it.
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sleepy
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Post by sleepy on Sept 3, 2009 16:30:26 GMT -5
This is pretty serious once you read the facts. this was clearly not some clerical error. it went on for several years under multiple coaches. How Wilk can get away without knowledge of is a bit of a stretch. If you need to find work study hours there are plenty of other areas to go to get the hours. not bad pocket change for what would be considered a no show job at Memphis. web1.ncaa.org/LSDBi/exec/miSearch?miSearchSubmit=publicReport&key=674&publicTerms=THIS
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lichoya68
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Post by lichoya68 on Sept 3, 2009 17:10:40 GMT -5
lets move on and stay TOTALLY away from any possible bad looking stuff at all go hoyas its almost february
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The Stig
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Post by The Stig on Sept 3, 2009 18:06:59 GMT -5
Reading through the NCAA press release, it sounds like this was simply a major lack of oversight by the athletic office. For example, this quote from the release: "The committee found the university lacked internal controls or systems to monitor the program or detect whether abuses took place. The committee also found the university failed to provide training for the baseball work-study supervisors and student-athletes regarding the accurate completion and review of timecards."
I'm not that well versed with how our AD works, but it wouldn't surprise me if this was simply a result of a lack of resources.
It also annoys me that one of the members of the NCAA committee that worked on this case was the former AD at Miami, a school that isn't known for being squeaky clean.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Sept 3, 2009 18:07:08 GMT -5
lets move on and stay TOTALLY away from any possible bad looking stuff at all go hoyas its almost february Yes, lets sweep it under the rug and pretend it never happened. That's a sure fire way to make sure it doesn't happen again.
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