PopeJohn2
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Post by PopeJohn2 on Feb 13, 2005 9:28:40 GMT -5
in watching the hoyas, i cant help but see a very young, inexperienced team. they turn the ball over a hella lot, make silly errors, are still learning the offense, and are sorely in need of a solid guard. yet they are 8-3. it is exciting to think how good they might be next year when they are more seasoned.
as much as the players have stepped up, the difference this year is simply coaching. amazing how important (and long overdue) a single decision was. degioia sucked it up, bit the bullet and bought out esherick. brave decision given gus financial probs.
i think its III that has made the difference this year more than anything in turning what would have been losses into wins. he deserves a raise and COY. degioia gets most valuable contribution honors.
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Feb 13, 2005 10:54:34 GMT -5
Don't forget the key role played by Frank Rienzo. Bringing the veteran out of retirement to lead our search for a new coach was HUGE. I remember when I first heard he was involved again... the only word to describe my reaction was RELIEF! Finally, somebody who knows what the hell he is doing was involved with the decision... not just involved, LEADING. They took it out of LANG's hands and gave it to Frank.
Rienzo eliminated hot shot assistants from the list of contenders and chose a guy who had already proven himself as a HC. AND a guy who understands what GU is all about, how important academics are and graduation rates, and still wants to compete for a national championship.
I will acknowledge when the decision to hire T3 was made, I thought it was a good -- but not great -- one. But i revised that assessment long ago. Like they say in all those Guiness ads, it was BRILLIANT!
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PopeJohn2
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Post by PopeJohn2 on Feb 13, 2005 11:03:12 GMT -5
thx. wasnt aware of that. i assume degioia also played a role in bringing in frank and usurping lang.
in studying leadership and companies which succeed and those that fail, a key determinant is strong, good management that arent afraid to make the hard, unpopular decisions.
we seem to have a good leader in jt iii. it seems like degioia is that kind of person as well at a higher level. now if degioia can only fix the gu hospital mess/financial losses, then we can be a top 15 academic school as well. and then we can afford to build a real on-campus basketball arena to rival cameron!
all you alumni dont foget to donate!
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Feb 13, 2005 11:05:30 GMT -5
and another thing.....
There's something else I REALLY like about T3. When you see him on the sideline, he ALWAYS looks cool.
You never see him looking angry, mean, shouting, losing control... like Beihlein did yesterday, like Coach K, like so many of these guys. Even if they don't go Bobby Knight balistic, they look so unhappy and stressed.
T3 always looks cool and in control. You never see him shouting at players or refs. Our team always plays cool down the stretch and we have a coach who is an outstanding representative of our University. What an amazing difference from where this program stood a year ago!
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Feb 13, 2005 11:38:03 GMT -5
and another thing..... There's something else I REALLY like about T3. When you see him on the sideline, he ALWAYS looks cool. You never see him looking angry, mean, shouting, losing control... like Beihlein did yesterday, like Coach K, like so many of these guys. Even if they don't go Bobby Knight balistic, they look so unhappy and stressed. T3 always looks cool and in control. You never see him shouting at players or refs. Our team always plays cool down the stretch and we have a coach who is an outstanding representative of our University. What an amazing difference from where this program stood a year ago! Sirsaxa, JTIII doesn't look cool, I think the more appropiate term is poise. Thats a testament to his character as a man and coach. You know, human instinct is to panic in pressure situations, but JTIII never does and makes sound decisions and that trickles down to our team. JTIII is underrated. The difference is coaching.
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Feb 13, 2005 11:55:16 GMT -5
Alright, here's the post that I'll be killed for. I love JTIII, but "underrated"? JTIII is an excellent offensive coach, the players like him, and he is calm in crunch time. All that makes him an upgrade.
But some things that he's getting credit for are ridiculous. My eyes roll in the back of my head everytime JTIII gets overly attributed for changes. "The difference is simply coaching" is repeated on this board more than any other comment. This also comes in the form of: "This team plays so much smarter and shoots so much better with JTIII on the sidelines."
I don't mean to alarm anyone, but last year's team shot 33.2% from three in-conference. This year's edition: 33.0%...almost exactly the same. And we're still a turnover machine. Last year we averaged 15 tos/g, and this year...14 per game.
But we have to be getting more assists right? Well last year we averaged 12/game, this year it's 13. Not exactly mind-blowing considering we're still below water a/to.
Well good teams also win games at the line and we're...down to 69.4% as a team from 72.7%.
So where have we improved over last year. Here are the major areas:
Overall FG% 2004: 38.2% 2005: 44.3%
Rebound margin 2004: -5.0 2005: +2.0
Blocks per game 2004: 3.25 2005: 6.4
Well that's interesting. We shoot better overall, can pull down boards, and block shots this year. But we also shoot worse from the free throw line. Wonder what could cause that? It is almost like we have a big and talented frontcourt, that's still a little raw.
Hey we all love JTIII but let's face facts: if Jeff Green doesn't qualify, we're 4-7. It's a pretty, more organized 4-7 than last year but ask WVU how nice that would be.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Feb 13, 2005 12:02:56 GMT -5
Alright, here's the post that I'll be killed for. I love JTIII, but "underrated"? JTIII is an excellent offensive coach, the players like him, and he is calm in crunch time. All that makes him an upgrade. But some things that he's getting credit for are ridiculous. My eyes roll in the back of my head everytime JTIII gets overly attributed for changes. "The difference is simply coaching" is repeated on this board more than any other comment. This also comes in the form of: "This team plays so much smarter and shoots so much better with JTIII on the sidelines." I don't mean to alarm anyone, but last year's team shot 33.2% from three in-conference. This year's edition: 33.0%...almost exactly the same. And we're still a turnover machine. Last year we averaged 15 tos/g, and this year...14 per game. But we have to be getting more assists right? Well last year we averaged 12/game, this year it's 13. Not exactly mind-blowing considering we're still below water a/to. Well good teams also win games at the line and we're...down to 69.4% as a team from 72.7%. So where have we improved over last year. Here are the major areas: Overall FG% 2004: 38.2% 2005: 44.3% Rebound margin 2004: -5.0 2005: +2.0 Blocks per game 2004: 3.25 2005: 6.4 Well that's interesting. We shoot better overall, can pull down boards, and block shots this year. But we also shoot worse from the free throw line. Wonder what could cause that? It is almost like we have a big and talented frontcourt, that's still a little raw. Hey we all love JTIII but let's face facts: if Jeff Green doesn't qualify, we're 4-7. It's a pretty, more organized 4-7 than last year but ask WVU how nice that would be. You can pull out every statistic, but coaches are hired and fired primarily for one statistic that you can't dispute or hide behind, and that is the W. And we have a lot more of those than we have had in recent year at this point in time and in in-conference play. You can see it when we play, particularly in pressure situations. We have not played like that before, even when we had talented teams in the past.The difference is coaching. JTIII is not appreciated enough. The man is a great coach.
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PopeJohn2
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Post by PopeJohn2 on Feb 13, 2005 12:29:34 GMT -5
giga, i must ever so respectfully emphatically disagree with your analysis. sabremetrics may work for billy bean, but certainly not gu basketball.
fact of the matter is, the 04 team may have better/similar stats as the 05 team, but the 04 team walked around campus ashamed of themselves and embarrassed, i think the 05 team is walking with their heads up high and are BMOCs. 04 lost to st johns. 05 beat pitt and almost cuse. and i dont believe any player has walked off the team yet this year. what would jtiii do if he had sweetney and braswell?
what the stats dont show is the confidence and intangibles that are so crucial to winners. look at all the money the yankees/mets/knicks/rangers/lakers throw at their players. why is belichick and coach k so admired/feared? because though they may not have the best of the best, they have built solid programs that turn out champions year in and year out. its comes down to vision, leadership and flawless execution. from what i can tell jtiii has this formula.
coaching matters a lot. stats show very little.
jtiii is getting props but is still not getting the attention he deserves. but he probably likes it that way.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Feb 13, 2005 12:42:33 GMT -5
I have to strongly disagree with the above posts.
Frank Rienzo was not "usurping" Joe Lang's authority. Frank Rienzo (and Jim Higgins) were chosen so as to operate outside traditional administrative channels. Both would have more time for travel and for extended and confidential discussions that a full time athletic director would not.
It's also unfair to place blame on Joe Lang in a lot of the Esherick hiring/firing talk. He didn't install him as coach, and while Lang publicly supported Esherick as he would any coach, the big decisions on Esherick's contract came straight from the top.
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OldHoyafan
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Post by OldHoyafan on Feb 13, 2005 13:09:35 GMT -5
Giga, I can't argue with the stats they speak for themselves. However, I don't think they support your position that JT3's hiring has not improved the Hoyas in all catagories. Shot selection and situational shot selection has improved dramatically. The 3pt. % is about the same from last year, but how many of those 3pt shots made from last year were taken at the end of the game when GU was out of the game and the players were throwing up 3's in desperation with no pressure.( I remember Cook had many of those end of game made 3s) If the stats are basically the same but the L's have become W's then it must be the coach or influx of great talent. Now Jeff Green is destined to be one of the Hoya greats, but Sweetney was not chopped liver and I don't remember the Hoyas having a similar record in conference during his 3 years. Finally one stat you did not list was defense. The one thing that stuck out in my mind during the Esherick years was the steady decline in the Hoyas defensive prowess. The one game i saw on TV evidenced a renewed defensive intensity I had not seen in awhile.
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Feb 13, 2005 13:31:41 GMT -5
My personal interpretation was that Lang knew he was going to retire once Esherick was canned, so DeGioia wanted to use people who might have a more prominent role in the University moving forward to conduct the search (Rienzo, Higgins) and interview candidates (DeGioia and key Healy 2 personnel).
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Feb 13, 2005 13:35:43 GMT -5
I have to strongly disagree with the above posts. Frank Rienzo was not "usurping" Joe Lang's authority. Frank Rienzo (and Jim Higgins) were chosen so as to operate outside traditional administrative channels. Both would have more time for travel and for extended and confidential discussions that a full time athletic director would not. DFW, I respect your opinion and know full well that you are far closer to the admin. than I. But sometimes being too close can color one's perception. Perhaps that is the case here? I don't know for certain, of course, but let me share some thoughts. This merely represents observations from someone who has followed this program for a long time. Being "Semi-retired" does allow for more time. True. But when was the last time a major college program handed over one of the biggest hiring decisions the department of athletics has to make to a "Semi-retired" outsider? When ND hires a new football coach do they assign that to a retired former AD? (this is not to denigrate Higgins involvement, I am sure he had significant input too). At GU, Basketball is far and away our biggest program and the one that has the greatest visibility on the national stage. If the president had confidence in his AD, why wasn't he involved in the process to find a new Hoops coach? Saying he "was one of a small group who approved it at the end" does not mean he made the decision, IMHO. It's also unfair to place blame on Joe Lang in a lot of the Esherick hiring/firing talk. He didn't install him as coach, and while Lang publicly supported Esherick as he would any coach, the big decisions on Esherick's contract came straight from the top. The comments Lang made about the NCAA tournament being an unrealistic annual goal are not what "any AD" would do. While he didn't hire Craig, he clearly failed to recognize how far and how fast the program was falling under Craig and/or took no steps to address it. Did he hire Craig? cause the fall? No, but he's the AD... he is supposed to be responsible for the success of the program. Standing by while it falls apart is not -- in my opinion -- doing your job. If the decisions "were made at the top", then Lang was either: 1. Giving bad advice to the top. or 2. He knew things should change but failed to convince Degioa. Either way, it is not a flattering assessment of his role and effectiveness. And, of course, coaches at Georgetown are not hired and fired on "the W". Had Craig Esherick avoided that "I may be here for another 30 years" boast to the Associated Press the day after Jack DeGioia publicly went to bat for him in a press release, might he still be coaching today? That is the scariest thought of all. And what does that say about Lang? Also, while Ws may not be the ONLY or most important factor in hiring and firing, if Craig DID have a lot of Ws, would he have been fired for saying the "30 years" comment? I don't think so. His poor W-L track record as HC, performance on the court and loss of so many players --with the attendant comments about the coach/player relationships, all combined to force the change, along with the foolish comments Craig made at the end. Like I said DFW, I respect your opinion. But in this case, I "strongly disagree" with your take on it too.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Feb 13, 2005 13:38:34 GMT -5
No need to fill up the board with this topic, so I'll discuss it with you in an IM offline.
However, it's clear that men's basketball answers at the top of the University, so the Athletic Director was likely in very close consultation with the President in anything that materially affected men's basketball during Craig's term as coach.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Feb 13, 2005 13:39:47 GMT -5
My personal interpretation was that Lang knew he was going to retire once Esherick was canned, so DeGioia wanted to use people who might have a more prominent role in the University moving forward to conduct the search (Rienzo, Higgins) and interview candidates (DeGioia and key Healy 2 personnel). The timing may have been true, but I don't think the two events were causative or related: I think Lang was ready to retire regardless of the person in the coaching chair for the basketball team. As much as you like to bash him, Jersey, Joe Lang did excellent work for years developing a very strong overall athletic program with fewer resources than many in his conference. He deserves our thanks and respect for that. First of all, few people posting here are privy to the actual decision making and chain of command that went into the decision to make the coaching change and the choice that was made. That makes most of the stuff posted here speculative at best. Mr. Lang, contrary to how he is often portrayed here, was involved, but as DFW stated, what is clear is that the final decision(s) regarding the basketball were made at the top of University governance. It makes eminent sense to have a search committee who knew the qualifications and had connections and time to give the search due diligence (Rienzo and Higgins). I think DFW is correct that the final impetus to make a change was Esherick's irrational public statements after DiGioia had publicly gone out on a limb to support him despite the lousy on-court results. In the end, why quibble about the process? As it turns out, DiGioia got good advice, made a difficult but correct decision that was no slam dunk to work, and look at the results.
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Feb 13, 2005 13:45:44 GMT -5
The timing may have been true, but I don't think the two events were causative or related: I think Lang was ready to retire regardless of the person in the coaching chair for the basketball team. As much as you like to bash him, Jersey, Joe Lang did excellent work for years developing a very strong overall athletic program with fewer resources than many in his conference. He deserves our thanks and respect for that. First of all, few people posting here are privy to the actual decision making and chain of command that went into the decision to make the coaching change and the choice that was made. That makes most of the stuff posted here speculative at best. Mr. Lang, contrary to how he is often portrayed here, was involved, but as DFW stated, what is clear is that the final decision(s) regarding the basketball were made at the top of University governance. It makes eminent sense to have a search committee who knew the qualifications and had connections and time to give the search due diligence (Rienzo and Higgins). I think DFW is correct that the final impetus to make a change was Esherick's irrational public statements after DiGioia had publicly gone out on a limb to support him despite the lousy on-court results. In the end, why quibble about the process? As it turns out, DiGioia got good advice, made a difficult but correct decision that was no slam dunk to work, and look at the results. You and I can agree to disagree about AD Lang. As you might expect, I am coming from SirSaxa's direction more on this matter. My position is that McDonough needs reform in the biggest way, and AD Lang represented to me everything that reform is not. He represented the very best in McDonough groupthink. As for whether he improved GU athletics overall, no question. The problem is that very few sports programs are built on the back of track, crew, lax, and sailing (sorry Nevada). The kingpin of the department almost went under on his watch, and he should not be immune from criticism because of it. Though a counterfactual, what would have happened if Esherick didn't open his mouth in mid-March? As for whether I like to bash people, I don't. It is just that some people's decisions, words, etc. are more conducive to criticism from people who come from my vantage point. I hope my original post indicated sufficiently the degree to which it was intended as speculation. As for the process, I don't quibble about it, although it is interesting to discuss to some extent. What concerned me more was the result. As some may remember, JT3 was not my first choice, but he is now. LOL. It made perfect sense to bury the hatchet on 4/20 and give JT3 the opportunity to show us something. Mission accomplished.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Feb 13, 2005 13:56:05 GMT -5
You and I can agree to disagree about AD Lang. As you might expect, I am coming from SirSaxa's direction more on this matter. My position is that McDonough needs reform in the biggest way, and AD Lang represented to me everything that reform is not. He represented the very best in McDonough groupthink. I hope my original post indicated sufficiently the degree to which it was intended as speculation. As for the process, I don't quibble about it, although it is interesting to discuss to some extent. What concerned me more was the result. As some may remember, JT3 was not my first choice, but he is now. LOL. It made perfect sense to bury the hatchet on 4/20 and give JT3 the opportunity to show us something. Mission accomplished. Funny how "McDonough groupthink" was not a problem when the W/L line put the team at the top of the BE. I just think Lang gets overly bashed for some things which may or may not have been completely in his control while many of those who bash ignore his accomplishments overall. As for the current state of "McDonough groupthink", they were intelligent enough to let the basketball program change pretty much whole cloth. Are there things to improve/reform still? Not all of the impediments are solely in McDonough IMO.
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Feb 13, 2005 14:01:58 GMT -5
Funny how "McDonough groupthink" was not a problem when the W/L line put the team at the top of the BE. I just think Lang gets overly bashed for some things which may or may not have been completely in his control while many of those who bash ignore his accomplishments overall. As for the current state of "McDonough groupthink", they were intelligent enough to let the basketball program change pretty much whole cloth. Are there things to improve/reform still? Not all of the impediments are solely in McDonough IMO. It was a problem when the wins were there. People just didn't realize it at the time. If they did, we might have an on-campus arena. Fair point on the balance of power between Healy 2 and McDonough.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Feb 13, 2005 14:38:21 GMT -5
Athletics does not exist in a vacuum. The Director of Athletics answers directly to the VP of Student Affairs and ultimately to the University president. The frequent changes in Student Affairs may have hampered some efforts, but the AD does not have unfettered authority over many of the matters some give him credit/blame on.
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Feb 13, 2005 14:46:22 GMT -5
Groupthink can exist even in hierarchical group situations, so I think your reply offers a non-starter. Famous work has been done on groupthink in the context of the Bay of Pigs invasion as compared to decision-making during the Cuban Missile Crisis, and it reflects the differences between Kennedy's role in both. One was groupthink, and the other was not.
In other words, just because a VP of Student Affairs or University President were at the table does not mean that groupthink does not or did not exist. Although, I could agree that they may have generated some of the common thinking and "conventional wisdom" that have constrained reforms over the past few years.
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PopeJohn2
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Post by PopeJohn2 on Feb 13, 2005 14:50:46 GMT -5
It was a problem when the wins were there. People just didn't realize it at the time. If they did, we might have an on-campus arena.
very well said jersey. thankfully in a business like sports there is a win-loss record against which performance can be judged. but even here it may take a while for reform.
what was all this that esherick said that people keep referring to. i dont see how the 30 year comment would result in his termination.
what we really need now is for degioia to fix gu hospital so that i can get my new on-campus arena with state of the art weight center and sky boxes! ;D isnt degioia the first non-jesuit president???
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