JT III Underrated, DeGioias a Stud

[PopeJohn2]

hey, how do i get the quote function to work right???

[DFW HOYA]

PopeJohn2 said:

what was all this that esherick said that people keep referring to. i dont see how the 30 year comment would result in his termination.

www.hoyasaxa.com/sports/archives/archive0304.htm#38

[TBird41]

I don't know how much the 30 year comment had to with Esherick's firing, but the article underneath it about the ND game last year certainly tells why Esh needed to go.

But in the last two games, the smell of quit seems to be hanging around this team.

After a lifeless, uninspired effort against Seton Hall, the Hoyas turned in a carbon copy of Saturday's game

[Big Dog]

Giga's post two pages ago was unsurprisingly preposterous. To those who offer that Jeff Green, more than JTIII, have been the difference this season I submit that had Craig come back with this exact roster, they really would have finished 11th in the Big East with the exact same players we see now. Esherick was among the worst major conference division 1 coaches in recent history. This cannot be argued. The very mention of his name still makes me shake with rage and frustration.

[GIGAFAN99]

The use of "preposterous" and "can't be argued" has convinced me. And that's an excellent "submission" I will take that completely unverifiable hypothetical under advisement.

Seriously, if you stop having a physical reaction to the mention of Esherick's name, what do you think JTIII himself would say if you asked him how this team would look without the only PLAYER (not freshman) currently in the top 15 in the Big East in points, rebounds, assists, FG%, and blocks?

Just because JTIII has talent doesn't lessen what he's done. But let's not detract from Jeff Green by acting like his presence is just incidental to a revolution led by JTIII. We're happy to have both of them, but if Green doesn't qualify I'm having a hard time seeing how we'd contend for the NCAAs.

[SirSaxa]

GIGAFAN99 said:

but if Green doesn't qualify I'm having a hard time seeing how we'd contend for the NCAAs.

Is anyone disagreeing with that?
This team is so thin, that if Green, Cook, or Bowman weren't here -- we wouldn't be looking at the tourney.

Hey Giga, a question for you. I don't know where you find all the stats, but I think we score a lot less this year than last. So, if we are getting 1 more assist per game this year, what is the percentage of assists per basket? I say this because I would guess by watching the games that a higher percentage of our baskets come as a result of assists, even if the number of assists/game has only increased by one.

And that shooting percentage overall looked to be up quite a lot... that's is a BIG improvement. All of this with a roster that BE coaches felt would finish second last in the league. Clearly, the roster has more talent than anyone thought AND T3 has developed that talent and put them in a position to win. He has done a great job.

[Big Dog]

That gets the inquiry all wrong. All that I want to talk about is how Esherick and JTIII would fare coaching identical rosters. With or without Jeff Green, Thompson would coach circles around Esh. Circles.

[SirSaxa]

Big said:

That gets the inquiry all wrong. All that I want to talk about is how Esherick and JTIII would fare coaching identical rosters. With or without Jeff Green, Thompson would coach circles around Esh. Circles.

Big Dog, am I missing something?
Is there someone posting on the board who disagrees that the team has done far better under T3? is there someone claiming Esh would have done just as well? Who is it with whom you are disagreeing?

[GIGAFAN99]

I knew this would happen, but I'll take the bullet.

I'm not going to argue JTIII is not a better coach than Craig Esherick. He is. But I'm struggling to see how in both cases, so much emphasis has been placed on the coach.

Let's even look at what you say Sir Saxa. You ask, "if we're scoring less isn't that extra assist a higher percentage per basket?" I guess it is, but with fewer possessions doesn't that also mean we should be turning the ball over far less so those turnovers are a higher percentage as well?

Of course it does, but you're starting from the framework of "JTIII is COY, Craig Esherick is the worst coach ever" so your question reflects that. It's this kind of thing that is pervasive on this board. We start by over-attributing everything to the coach, and then mold the results to fit that perception.

Case in point, Sweetney was mentioned as a "Jeff Green-type player" in this thread who never saw a record "anywhere close" to what we're doing this year. Well as a freshmen, Sweets led the team in points and boards (with number similar to Green actually) and surrounded by expereince and talent the team went 25-8, 10-6 in the league, made the Sweet 16 and even led the league in BOTH rebounding and assists. Of course this was "forgotten."

Again, JTIII is a great coach and as a successful head coach previously is certainly better than Craig Esherick. But that doesn't mean OT versus Norfolk St. can be written off to "Oh they're just young" and then a win over Pitt be "simply about coaching."

Let's be happy with the performance of the team and not load up everything on the coach. It never ends well to deify or demonize a symbol of your school. It means (though we never think it will happen), once you hit a bump in the road everyone attacks. It happened with Esherick, but also with his predecessor (a HoFer responsible for Georgetown basketball as we know it).

So let's just get perspective. All this love for JTIII is great, but it can get out of hand really easily. Give him a break and just be happy about the team.

By the way, I still think he should be CoY over Skinner.

[Big Dog]

More so than in any other sport receiving significant public attention, the college basketball head coach defines the program. He brings in raw players. He teaches the players. He makes in-game decisions. He decides who to recruit. He decides who to play. He devises a system. He calls timeouts. He maintains the only real continuity over the years. The point of all of this is to say that the head coach is the single key to the status of a program. The program stunk in recent years because first and foremost the man in charge was not up to the task (that's as nice a way of putting it as you'll hear me say). Its on its way back now because a good coach is in charge. The players will come and go, but I firmly believe we're going to be good on a pretty consistent basis because of the guy in charge.

[TBird41]

GIGAFAN99 said:

Let's be happy with the performance of the team and not load up everything on the coach. It never ends well to deify or demonize a symbol of your school.

So let's just get perspective. All this love for JTIII is great, but it can get out of hand really easily. Give him a break and just be happy about the team.

I think Giga has a very valid point. Demonizing and deifying coaches can only lead to problems. Even if that roadbump never materializes like it did for Esherick and even JTII--Duke and Coach K anyone? Do we really want to be like Duke and worship our bball coach? Plus, what would the Pope think of that?

[PopeJohn2]

well, since i started this argument let me summarize what ive concluded are the relevent (i.e. correct) facts:

1. jtiii is a better coach that esherick

2. degioia is a stud. props go out also do some other guys as well.

3. green is a very good player.

4. we would not be as good as we are without both jtiii and green

5. this team is doing better with jtiii than it would be under esherick

6. big dog is exactly on mark when he says a coach defines a program long term, and from the few months on record, it seems jtiii will reestablish gu's proud tradition of basketball.

and my main point in the beginning is dont underestimate the value of a coach. i seem to remember when coach k was out for a while duke went like 1-16 when his assistant took over. and didnt matt dougherty louse things up at unc before roy put things back in order. amazing how much better the results when k and roy took over from one year to the next with practically the same team. and didnt the huns fade away into obscurity when attila died?

history has shown time and time again how much difference a single leader can make. its no different in college hoops.

i hope my observations of jtiii prove accurate.

[HoyaSox04]

Big said:

More so than in any other sport receiving significant public attention, the college basketball head coach defines the program. He brings in raw players. He teaches the players. He makes in-game decisions. He decides who to recruit. He decides who to play. He devises a system. He calls timeouts. He maintains the only real continuity over the years. The point of all of this is to say that the head coach is the single key to the status of a program. The program stunk in recent years because first and foremost the man in charge was not up to the task (that's as nice a way of putting it as you'll hear me say). Its on its way back now because a good coach is in charge. The players will come and go, but I firmly believe we're going to be good on a pretty consistent basis because of the guy in charge.

BD, I could not agree with you more. There are a few rare exceptions to this (the one that comes to mind is Carmelo basically defining that Syracuse team and revitalizing the school), but over the course of the last 20-30 years of basketball, you associate the head coach with the program. Think about it: UCLA = Wooden. UNC = Dean Smith. Duke = Coach K. Georgetown = Thompson. Now, granted, these are the big names, but with even with schools today, its pretty much the norm that the head coach is who you associate with the program and who the recruits will follow. Here's one example: Mark Few with Gonzaga. He is the reason that for the last 5 years or so, that little catholic school has become the major player that they are. It's not because of Dan Dickau or Turiaf or the players as much; Few created a system that works both in his conference and on the national stage and brings players in to fit that system. His players aren't necessarily NBA level players, but he brought the Zags onto the national stage and has had tons of success there.

That being said, I think that JT3 is the main reason for the rebirth of our program this year. His offense has been the defining mark of this team, something that everyone else in the BE has struggled to defend against. He has reenergized Bowman and Ashanti, given them the ability to play within their means and be successful. He's been able to let Jeff play to his own abilities, ie: off the block, where he can shoot the J (or 3), penetrate to the hoop, etc. He has been able to what we all thought of was a soft, gangly 7'2" kid who was terrible and turn him into a solid BE center who plays with as much passion and aggression as anyone on our team. For christ sakes, this man has taken Ray Reed and been able to get positive contributions from him in almost every game (all of you who thought this was impossible at the beginning of the season, please raise your hands now).

Thought so.

BD is completely right in his analysis. In two years, or three, when JG/Roy/JWall are gone, the reason this program can and will be successful and back on the national stage is because of the man we all call 3.

[PopeJohn2]

TBird41 said:

I think Giga has a very valid point. Demonizing and deifying coaches can only lead to problems. Even if that roadbump never materializes like it did for Esherick and even JTII--Duke and Coach K anyone? Do we really want to be like Duke and worship our bball coach? Plus, what would the Pope think of that?

ill worship anybody who gives me a sport to follow in march. hockey sux.

[OldHoyafan]

Giga replied "Case in point, Sweetney was mentioned as a "Jeff Green-type player" in this thread who never saw a record "anywhere close" to what we're doing this year. Well as a freshmen, Sweets led the team in points and boards (with number similar to Green actually) and surrounded by expereince and talent the team went 25-8, 10-6 in the league, made the Sweet 16 and even led the league in BOTH rebounding and assists. Of course this was "forgotten."

I mentioned Sweets freshman year as compared to Greens. I did not forget that that 2001 team had a good year, but that team had 6'11"Boumtje Boumtje(future NBAer),6'11" Lee Scruggs, 6'11"Wesley Wilson, as frontline players, Braswell,Hunter and Riley in the backcourt. This years young Hoyas may develop, but at this point there is no comparison in talent.
Look, I am not saying that JT3 is the next coming of John Wooten, but to say his contribution to this team is being overplayed is your opinion and should be respected,buy not accurate.

[DanMcQ]

Big said:

The very mention of his name still makes me shake with rage and frustration.

BD - you need some professional help, man. ;D

Things have changed for the better. Things continue to change for the better, on many fronts. We've received a quantum leap in record this year when few of us were expecting it. It's due to many factors, not the least of which are the current coaching staff AND the players left for them by the prior coaching staff.

[SFHoya99]

GIGAFAN99 said:

I knew this would happen, but I'll take the bullet.

I'm not going to argue JTIII is not a better coach than Craig Esherick. He is. But I'm struggling to see how in both cases, so much emphasis has been placed on the coach.

Let's even look at what you say Sir Saxa. You ask, "if we're scoring less isn't that extra assist a higher percentage per basket?" I guess it is, but with fewer possessions doesn't that also mean we should be turning the ball over far less so those turnovers are a higher percentage as well?

Of course it does, but you're starting from the framework of "JTIII is COY, Craig Esherick is the worst coach ever" so your question reflects that. It's this kind of thing that is pervasive on this board. We start by over-attributing everything to the coach, and then mold the results to fit that perception.

Case in point, Sweetney was mentioned as a "Jeff Green-type player" in this thread who never saw a record "anywhere close" to what we're doing this year. Well as a freshmen, Sweets led the team in points and boards (with number similar to Green actually) and surrounded by expereince and talent the team went 25-8, 10-6 in the league, made the Sweet 16 and even led the league in BOTH rebounding and assists. Of course this was "forgotten."

Again, JTIII is a great coach and as a successful head coach previously is certainly better than Craig Esherick. But that doesn't mean OT versus Norfolk St. can be written off to "Oh they're just young" and then a win over Pitt be "simply about coaching."

Let's be happy with the performance of the team and not load up everything on the coach. It never ends well to deify or demonize a symbol of your school. It means (though we never think it will happen), once you hit a bump in the road everyone attacks. It happened with Esherick, but also with his predecessor (a HoFer responsible for Georgetown basketball as we know it).

So let's just get perspective. All this love for JTIII is great, but it can get out of hand really easily. Give him a break and just be happy about the team.

By the way, I still think he should be CoY over Skinner.

In basketball especially, two or three points per game improvement is enormous in W-L. It doesn't look enormous to you and I, but that's the differential between winning and losing for a team like ours.

III has been special, and some random combination of the freshman, III, and the veterans' personal effort have brought it about.

It's impossible to split apart those three things. We can offer all the arguments we want, but we can't prove anything. Kudos all around.

[SFHoya99]

HoyaSox430 said:

He has reenergized Bowman and Ashanti, given them the ability to play within their means and be successful. He's been able to let Jeff play to his own abilities, ie: off the block, where he can shoot the J (or 3), penetrate to the hoop, etc. He has been able to what we all thought of was a soft, gangly 7'2" kid who was terrible and turn him into a solid BE center who plays with as much passion and aggression as anyone on our team. For christ sakes, this man has taken Ray Reed and been able to get positive contributions from him in almost every game (all of you who thought this was impossible at the beginning of the season, please raise your hands now).

This is what Giga was talking about. You've basically given all credit for Ashanti and Brandon's improvement, Ray's resurgence, and everything Roy does to III.

I'm not saying that III doesn't deserve credit, because he does. However, the players themselves might've played a bit of a role, as well. There was an article or something about Ray a month or so ago, talking about all the work he puts in on the side. And I'm sure the other players work just as hard.

You've also painted Roy as Ignatius did. Many of us thought that was a load of crap. This is exactly how I though Roy would play, III or Esherick.

III is a better coach than any coach we've had in a decade, including the late-era Pops. His influence had helped these players immensely. But they also need to get some credit. They've put effort in. And they have talent -- we may not be UConn, but we're at least in the Top 7 in the BE in talent. Would you trade Jeff or Brandon for anyone on the bottom five? Gomes, I suppose (1 year only). Would you trade Ashanti for any guard? Roy for any big man? Lets not sell our players short either.

[the_way]

I really don't understand why we can't give JTIII full credit for what is going on here. People can give full credit to Esh when he was doing bad as coach, but can't give full credit to JTIII with the job he is doing as the coach this year. Yet people give Coach K, Roy Williams all the credit in the world when their starting five and bench are consumed of all-americans. It really baffles me. Nothing is ever good for anybody. I think the fact we are thinking NCAA tournament right now when we were hopefully praying for the NIT, the fact that across the nation hoya fans and alums are not emabarassed to say "G'town is my team" anymore, the fact that the players on this team themselves are not ashamed to play for this team and are no longer laughed at by their Big East peers and most importantly are RESPECTED when competing against other Big East teams this year, has everything to do with JTIII. What a difference a coach makes.

[jerseyhoya34]

What a thread this has turned into! Personally, I think we should stop discussing Esherick. He is history and, like the program he led, irrelevant.