whatmaroon
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 819
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Post by whatmaroon on Apr 6, 2009 10:39:16 GMT -5
YouCon was a useful reminder of one truism: never trust a team with a highly regarded player who can't score, and Thabeet still doesn't have a legit offensive game. Not sure if it was posted here but SI talked to an assistant coach who said 90% of Thabeet's FGM in BE play were dunks. Walker was the guy who could have been the difference-maker, and he stunk it up like Samuels the game before.
Izzo's guys may not have panned out, for the most part, but he's had NBA talent-the 2000 championship team had 3 #1's in Mo Pete, Cleaves, and Richardson, plus Charlie Bell who's in the NBA right now, the 2001 FF team had two #1's in Richardson and Randolph (who was a 1-and-done), and the '05 FF team had 3 guys go in the top 35 of the 2006 draft, plus there have been other guys who were big recruits like Kelvin Torbert and that idiot guard who declared after a year for no good reason whose name escapes me right now. I love Izzo as a coach, but let's not pretend he's turning a bunch of talentless scrubs into FF teams.
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Elvado
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,080
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Post by Elvado on Apr 6, 2009 10:48:51 GMT -5
What a glorious night Saturday was. Fagan and Nova taken to the woodsheds. Start the clock on the UCONN and Nova investigations.
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 17,791
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Post by SFHoya99 on Apr 6, 2009 10:55:57 GMT -5
They aren't a bunch of talentless scrubs, but Izzo also isn't running through with UNC-level talent. And for him basically to go to the Final Four almost 50% of his years is amazing.
Also, a players like Cleaves and Bell got NBA looks because they won; they stuck in the NBA for a while partially because of what they learned under Izzo. So there's a little bit of self-fulfilling there.
Players in the RSCI Top 100 for Michigan State
1999 - 3 2000 - 2 (Zahc Randolph and Marcus Taylor, your idiot guard, were both in the Top 5 2001 - 2 2002 - 3 2003 - 3 2004 - 2 2005 - 0 2006 - 3 2007 - 3 2008 - 3 2009 - 0
On average, he's probably got 7 or 8 Top 100 guys on his roster. I think the Hoyas can live there. But that's much different than 10 Top 100s and a good 6-7 Top 25 guys like UNC.
Couple of things I noticed:
- Early on in the decade, he had a lot of highly ranked recruits who were one and done - Randolph, Taylor, Torbert. Then those faded.
- For the most part, his Top 100 guys ended up being good but often not the best players on the team -- Paul Davis was highly rated for example.
He's got talent, but there's a lot of guys like say, Henry Sims, that he keeps and develops. And there's a lot of players in the slightly higher ranks that don't become stars but stick around to contribute.
I think it is a more likely model to follow than UNCs, frankly.
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Boz
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
123 Fireballs!
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Post by Boz on Apr 6, 2009 11:02:39 GMT -5
What a glorious night Saturday was. Fagan and Nova taken to the woodsheds. Start the clock on the UCONN and Nova investigations. Is there actually a Nova investigation in the works, or is this just the standard Elvado "I have scraped stuff off the bottom of my shoes that I liked more than Villanova" polemic? (not that I disagree with you) ;D
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Elvado
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,080
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Post by Elvado on Apr 6, 2009 11:06:43 GMT -5
History tells me it's coming. 1971 (Vacated runner up). 1985 (Cokie McLain). Filth is filth and it resides on the Main Line.
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whatmaroon
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 819
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Post by whatmaroon on Apr 6, 2009 12:34:02 GMT -5
SF, Thanks for the reply, and agreed on most points. MSU isn't at the UNC level in terms of recruiting, but 7-8 Top 100 guys is probably right in the next tier, especially since my (very casual) observation is that Spartan players don't get the "elite school boost" UNC and Duke recruits get. As to his players getting NCAA looks because they win-that's what happens to everybody. Back in '06, KenPom had a listing of where players on the Sweet 16 teams were ranked by DraftExpress. Green and Hibbert both went higher in draft spot than their class ranking at the time, and the Florida players really got a booster. kenpom.com/blog/index.php/weblog/sweet_16_preview/It's interesting to look at Izzo's tenure in terms of cycles. First, he had the "Flint"stones class at the beginning of his tenure that was the core of the 1999 FF team and 2000 national champions-our equivalent would be the Jon/Jeff/Roy class, obviously, and maybe we're a FF team in 2006 if we don't hit the national champ in the third round, we made the FF in 2007, and if Jeff sticks around or we get 2 Top 5 recruits we have a great shot of hitting the FF last year, too. Next trip to the FF for Izzo comes 4 years later, with a new group of guys, and now 4 years again after that, with a different group of guys. In the between the FF trips, though, you have some (often disappointing) early round flameouts, including Mason and Nevada.
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nodak89
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Roy Roy Royyyyy!!!
Posts: 1,881
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Post by nodak89 on Apr 6, 2009 12:40:54 GMT -5
I'm glad Nova won't get to 2 before we do.
That cannot happen.
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PhillyHoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,016
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Post by PhillyHoya on Apr 6, 2009 12:46:36 GMT -5
I'm glad Nova won't get to 2 before we do. That cannot happen. I've never even come close to contemplating suicide in my life but that would get me to start.
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hoyarooter
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 10,225
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Post by hoyarooter on Apr 6, 2009 13:14:20 GMT -5
When did Nova morph into Georgetown? That was definitely three point shooting of Hoyaesque proportions. Really, really poor shot selection. Villanova has been taking shots like that for the better part of four or more years. The last three months of their play doesn't erase that fact. How many years has Scottie Reynolds been there? ;D You're right, MCI. That has been a Nova trademark, but just not for the last three months.
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whatmaroon
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 819
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Post by whatmaroon on Apr 6, 2009 13:32:07 GMT -5
Fun fact I haven't seen mentioned: the Huskies and Wildcats join the 07 Hoyas as the only Big East squads to lose in the National Semifinals to a non-BE opponent. Every other BE team to make the FF has either made it to the championship game or lost to a fellow BE team (SJU to us in '85, Providence to Cuse in '87).
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dreamhoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,259
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Post by dreamhoya on Apr 6, 2009 15:08:01 GMT -5
aw man, jtthree should take a snippet of that tape and play it over and over and over again for the guys! too many of our guys were standing around watching the rebounds this year. it hurt my stomach to watch chi www.theworldlovepoem.com
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 17,791
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Post by SFHoya99 on Apr 6, 2009 15:21:58 GMT -5
To be an elite team, you have to do nearly everything -- you don't have to do everything great, but you have to do everything. And rebound -- especially offensively -- is one of those. We were a Top 10 offensive rebounding team in 2006-07, one of the couple top shooting teams and passable in turnovers. And we were great at forcing misses and passable at D rebounding and forcing turnovers.
This year was a lot different, of course, but not only were our best qualities (shooting, stopping shots) not quite elite, but our usually passable areas at times were incredibly bad. When the former dropped in conference, we had nothing to fall back on.
I only bring this up with Nova and Michigan State generally didn't shoot that well this tourney -- but when they've won, they've destroyed people on the offensive glass. At our best, so did we.
I don't completely agree with Giga's views on Dajuan being out of place at the four, but I do agree we need two bigs on the floor at all times. And if Dajuan isn't rebounding like a big, then its an issue.
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HoyaSC
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 514
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Post by HoyaSC on Apr 6, 2009 16:56:29 GMT -5
For those of you who were at the 2nd Round game against BC in Winston-Salem..... remember the Michigan State v. UNC game that was played same day? MSU hung around and battled, but just didn't have enough. Also, big home court advantage for UNC in that game.
We tailgated that day with some Spartans fans. Good people, handed out beers. I came away with a very favorable impression of their fan base.
I'd love to see the Heels choke it away tonight. Go Spartans!
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hoya95
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,445
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Post by hoya95 on Apr 6, 2009 20:40:38 GMT -5
For lots of reasons, CBS is happy Billy Packer is not around. One of them is that Clark Kellogg won't tell you that this game is over. But it is. Man, Carolina is going to be insufferable tonight.
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sleepy
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by sleepy on Apr 6, 2009 20:48:38 GMT -5
For lots of reasons, CBS is happy Billy Packer is not around. One of them is that Clark Kellogg won't tell you that this game is over. But it is. Man, Carolina is going to be insufferable tonight. On the bright side Duke fans are going to be miserable. That is ALWAYS a plus.
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hoya95
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,445
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Post by hoya95 on Apr 6, 2009 20:55:28 GMT -5
For lots of reasons, CBS is happy Billy Packer is not around. One of them is that Clark Kellogg won't tell you that this game is over. But it is. Man, Carolina is going to be insufferable tonight. On the bright side Duke fans are going to be miserable. That is ALWAYS a plus. I'd love to get to an era when neither one of them is very good. I am so sick of Tobacco Road. But clearly that's not tonight.
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FLHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Proud Member of Generation Burton
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Post by FLHoya on Apr 6, 2009 21:05:37 GMT -5
When a massive talent differential at basically every position meets a game plan designed on an X-Box game at "Walk-On" level...you've got this game so far.
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GIGAFAN99
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Apr 6, 2009 21:07:14 GMT -5
This is heading towards 1990 UNLV territory
I take that back. That game was moderately respectable for a half. This is not close.
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hoya95
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,445
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Post by hoya95 on Apr 6, 2009 21:23:00 GMT -5
Now I'm just annoyed at Michigan St. for knocking off teams who could have at least made this a game. Don't think UConn could have won the way Carolina is playing, but it would not have been this depressing to watch. Lousy end to a lousy basketball season.
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whatmaroon
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 819
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Post by whatmaroon on Apr 6, 2009 21:24:11 GMT -5
55 in the first half. I can always applaud Cuse getting knocked out of the record books. Unfortunately Roy will probably call off the dogs a little, so UNLV's 30 point margin is probably safe but we can at least try to beat 103 and the combined record of 176.
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