SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Mar 4, 2009 11:20:59 GMT -5
1. Rebounding... I don't know that stats... I do. ReboundingShort answer: No, we're not consistently bad.
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Diablo
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Post by Diablo on Mar 4, 2009 11:26:49 GMT -5
Given GIGA's selective memory, I was just wondering what team/coach is not an absolute failure?
UConn? - Can't be, didn't make post season tournament two years ago and lost to San Diego in the first round last year. North Carolina? - Definitely not, blew an 11 point lead in second half of Elite Eight game. Pittsburgh? - That ridiculous, they can't make it past the Sweet 16 and lost to an unranked Providence team this year. Oklahoma? - Of course not, they haven't made it passed the second round of the NCAA Tournament since 2003. Memphis? - blowing an 8 point lead with 2 minutes left in the National Championship game is surely a sign of a program in trouble.
GIGA - any insight into which program we should model ourselves after since a Final Four and two regular season championships in the past three years is not enough?
Maybe we should go after Lebron in 2010?
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Madgesdiq
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Post by Madgesdiq on Mar 4, 2009 11:30:02 GMT -5
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Mar 4, 2009 11:30:37 GMT -5
Boz... thanks for beating me to that. And, for the record, hoyaheaven has never and will never be taken seriously on this board. He/she says the same crap over and over. JT3 is crap. The Georgetown offense is crap. The players are crap. Yada yada yada. It's like a little kid that keeps repeating the same thing expecting that he won't eventually just be ignored.
So it was a rough season. It sucks and it happened. Done. Let's move on. Barring any major defections, I think we have a lot to look forward to.
Anyone who is too "disgusted" or "embarrassed" or whatever else some of these fair-weather fans purportedly are, go root for Maryland or Syracuse or some equivalent crap team/institution where you can REALLY have something to be disgusted or embarrassed about.
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Filo
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Post by Filo on Mar 4, 2009 12:09:44 GMT -5
I want to revisit a good post made early on here. But before I do that, I have to address: 1. Giga - holy moly, is this what happens when the eternal optimist finally loses all hope. I haven't seen anyone around here that paints a rosier picture all the time. Now, lookout beeeeellllooooowwwwww....... 2. Hoyaheaven is Esh or Jamie Dixon. That is all. Anyway... Not what I am saying at all. There is no question JT3 has done an outstanding job here and there is nobody else I would want leading this program. However, there are certain problems that have been here the past few years. 1. Rebounding... I don't know that stats, but I am sure we have been one of the worst teams and giving off Offensive rebounds in the country the last few years. It seems as there as been no focus on this issue as players still refuse to block out properly and be aggressive on the boards 2. Feeding the Post... This has been a major issue since Hibbert's junior year or so when he became a legitimate post presence. We refuse to feed the post on one-on-one situations and I cannot count how many times Hibbert/Monroe would make picks at the top of the key, have a smaller defender switch on them, post up, yet still not receive the pass into them. Again, I haven't seen any effort in this area the past few years. 3. Inability to hold big leads See post #1 4. Inability to inject emotion into the team Without PE jr., there has been very little emotion from the team. I know thats JT3's coaching style but sometimes I think a little screaming or at least faking getting upset would be useful. 5. Lack of accountability from the players I think this stems from JT3's calmness and lack of emotion (which is also a big positive in other areas). It seems that the SAME players make the SAME mistakes game in and game out without being corrected. Dajuan's lazy passes, Greg's refusal to go up strong, stepping on the out of bounds line 5 times a game etc... *Like I said, JT3 is the right man for this program without question. However, to say that this will be an elite program without some structural changes or introspective change from the coach is naive and, unfortunately, wrong. I think 1. and 2. are pervasive problems - at least they are recurring problems under JTIII's tenure from what I can remember. 3. May have been an issue a bit in prior years, but it is just this year that it is a major problem. 4. and 5. are clearly isolated to this year's team. Yes, JTIII is stoic. But this has not been seen as a liability until this year, and I am betting it won't be a problem going forward.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Mar 4, 2009 12:17:08 GMT -5
To counter Filo:
1. Rebounding isn't a continual strength, but it's more a result of personnel, and hasn't always been an issue.
2. Again, I wouldn't call it a strength, but this one has a lot to do with what people want. Roy didn't take significantly less shots as a % of total relative to some other bigs (like Hansbrough), but we also don't feed anyone like Notre Dame does Harangody, for example.
The offense has generally been very good under Thompson -- though this year has not been great -- so while I can definitely see feeding the post more, I'm not sure this is the cure-all everyone makes it out to be.
3. Until someone proves that we've lost more leads over time that any other team, I'm not going to be concerned about this. It's like the "The Offense can't come back" argument to me right now. That one is wholly disproven but people keep going back to it.
4. There's two sides to this coin. You can talk about emotion, but one of the great things about this team over the previous years was the fact that it never rattled. We partially attributed that to III's calm demeanor and trust in his players.
It's like any leadership or management role. He's a guy who trusts players and generally doesn't get on them in public. This works great when your players play to that trust. It's tough when they don't. Would yelling really help? Only if you think these guys need motivation via fear. I'm certainly in no position to say.
5. Players are getting benched left and right. From all accounts, Thompson is not nice on the practice court. Lack of accountability? How would you know? Basically, the OP wants guys called out in the media, or maybe kicked off the team? Eh, I like having a classy coach.
At some point, people have to take personal accountability. Coaches can't be 100% responsible -- or even primarily responsible -- for motivation. You have to do it yourself.
That said, I have yet to see anything about the players that says they aren't trying. Maybe they aren't doing it right or well enough to win, but I think it's a huge leap to question effort.
It's not like you just try and win.
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Post by wrestlemania on Mar 4, 2009 13:06:30 GMT -5
I continue to be amazed at how folks seem to have forgotten just how bad the situation was during Esh's last year. For God's sake, we were headed for an extended run of beating out Rutgers and South Florida for last place. And it's not an accident that candidates weren't breaking down the door to take the job -- JTII doesn't just cast a shadow, he's very much alive at McDonough and on the radio, and no one wants to deal with that.
Division I is littered with elite or pretty good programs that have flatlined -- Florida, Kentucky, Michigan, Georgia Tech and UNLV to name a few of recent vintage, and if you go back further you could add Seton Hall, Cincinnati, St. Johns, North Carolina State, New Jersey Institute of Technology, South Delaware Cashier's Institute, Nassau Community College (OK I'm free associating but you get the point).
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Buckets
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Post by Buckets on Mar 4, 2009 13:10:43 GMT -5
JTIII's biggest problem is the in-game coaching. The last few years, he could get away with some things (e.g. not calling timeouts when most other coaches would) because we always had a coach on the floor with JWall who would keep the game under control. We don't call timeouts to stop runs, our substitutions this season haven't really made sense, and when other coaches make adjustments, we don't respond. Fortunately, these things are all fixable, but I think the staff is going to have to look at their in-game tactics long and hard in the offseason.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Mar 4, 2009 13:41:19 GMT -5
Freemoney, Wallace and Co. didn't cover up poor in-game coaching; that was the perfect in game coaching for them.
You need to trust your players to make the right decisions, and when your players are capable of keeping calm and making the right decisions BETTER than your opponents, calling a timeout merely removes part of that advantage. I'm a huge fan of coaches that teach their players the right way and then let the players make decisions. I think it makes a better team.
It's obviously not working in the short term with this team. But I imagine when he was choosing to do this three months ago he thought they'd grow into it. Not the right call for 2009, but the tactics you espouse aren't necessarily the right coaching moves.
I agree on the substitutions -- but I find it interesting half the board thinks we do it too much and the other half wants more yanking of players that don't perform.
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Post by hoyafreakinsaxa on Mar 4, 2009 13:48:11 GMT -5
I'd like to see a statistical analysis of how we perform out of a timeout. It seems to me that that would show we perform worse out of a timeout (either relative to an average possession and/or relative to other teams after a timeout). If that's the case that would be a quantifiable measure almost purely of coaching.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Mar 4, 2009 14:00:05 GMT -5
Its not III's coaching
Its the players he is coaching.
Our problem is that some guys still green, some aren't as talented as billed, and as a collective unit we don't have one person who has the juice to hold everybody else accountable on the floor.
when you have that, you are going to have the tons of mistakes we have, the lack of patience in running a set play, the brain farts or lapses in great play during the course of the game.
its not III's coaching. III's coaching has actually masked more of our deficiencies as a team.
III is not only trying to coach, but also develop players and still try to be competive in the ultra-competive Big East. There isn't one guy on this roster who has the same role he had the year before. Not one. Folks have to do what they never did before, and thats step their game up and/or take a leadership role for the void that exists in leadership. Most of the guys on this team, freshman, 1st-year playing sophomores, sophomores, just aren't ready for that type of role, and the other 2 guys (upperclassman) just don't have the juice or high-level of consistent play to garner respect and inject a sense of accountability into the team.
I betcha III will need a long vacation after this season is over. It has probably taken everything out of him.
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Post by westendhoya on Mar 4, 2009 14:02:50 GMT -5
Its not III's coaching Its the players he is coaching. Our problem is that some guys still green, some aren't as talented as billed, and as a collective unit we don't have one person who has the juice to hold everybody else accountable on the floor. when you have that, you are going to have the tons of mistakes we have, the lack of patience in running a set play, the brain farts or lapses in great play during the course of the game. its not III's coaching. III's coaching has actually masked more of our deficiencies as a team. III is not only trying to coach, but also develop players and still try to be competive in the ultra-competive Big East. There isn't one guy on this roster who has the same role he had the year before. Not one. Folks have to do what they never did before, and thats step their game up and/or take a leadership role for the void that exists in leadership. Most of the guys on this team, freshman, 1st-year playing sophomores, sophomores, just aren't ready for that type of role, and the other 2 guys (upperclassman) just don't have the juice or high-level of consistent play to garner respect and inject a sense of accountability into the team. I betcha III will need a long vacation after this season is over. It has probably taken everything out of him. Are you saying JT3 hasn't done a poor job of coaching this year?
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Mar 4, 2009 18:28:55 GMT -5
I just wanted to finish the thread I started. First, JTIII will be coach of Georgetown as long as he chooses. Second JTIII is a very good basketball coach. Third, the rock bottom post is insane.
BUT
There is a tendency--and I would even say a strong tendency--for a coach to go to the Final Four and stop learning. Whether it's being fat and happy or if they think "hey it worked before", it happens. This doesn't make JTIII a bad coach at all. In fact I would say some of the most successful coaches in college stopped learning but went to better situations to have success (Howland, Williams, etc.). He wouldn't even be the first Georgetown coach named John Thompson to stop adapting after a run of success.
But yesterday's debacle, combined with the Davidson choke and the record-setting gagfest of 'Cuse seems to indicate a problem holding big leads. And yes it's because we sat on the ball. Magesdiq asks how I know. I know because we did it every time. If JTIII didn't want it he could call a play and the time on the shot clock would be "time play called minus time it takes to run play." That didn't happen. Whomever had the ball when the music stopped had to shoot.
This, combined with our ineffective post play, stubborn refusal to use pressure, and almost obsession with sharing the basketball worries me. It worries me that these things are never going to change. It worries me that it's JT the sequel and it's 1986 and not 1980. Still some nice years ahead mind you but not getting back to the Final Four.
As for the Esherick comments. Have at it. If you want to console yourself by saying JTIII is better than Esh go ahead. JTIII is not an assistant you hand the keys to to presumably build from scratch. JTIII makes more than Jack Degioia. JTIII makes 5 Eshericks a year. So no matter what man-crush you have on him because he's not Esh, JTIII is what he is. He's a hired gun. And his first team that is entirely his has 10 players, 5 transfers, and 6 Big East wins. In short, he laid an egg.
So if you wonder why I removed 2007 from the sample it's because I'm not worried about Esh disease at all. I'm worried about Crean disease.
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TC
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Post by TC on Mar 4, 2009 18:45:40 GMT -5
As for the Esherick comments. Have at it. If you want to console yourself by saying JTIII is better than Esh go ahead. JTIII is not an assistant you hand the keys to to presumably build from scratch. JTIII makes more than Jack Degioia. JTIII makes 5 Eshericks a year. So no matter what man-crush you have on him because he's not Esh, JTIII is what he is. He's a hired gun. And his first team that is entirely his has 10 players, 5 transfers, and 6 Big East wins. In short, he laid an egg. Aren't you the same guy that when Esherick was here was arguing that we'd never be great again because facilities are such an issue, and it's all about the money poured into the program and it's not really an Esherick problem? Your line of reasoning here is inconsistent and just plain pathetic. JTIII is not a hired gun - any hired gun would have left after the Final Four appearance because there would have been a much larger paycheck out there than what Georgetown could offer. I'd love to be seeing a tournament team this year. But this year is THE STRONGEST Big East Conference ever. In 1994, this team is not only in but probably Big East champion. There are teams out there this year that are a lot deeper and a lot more experienced and that's basically what this season came down to. And given how the Big East could have gone the opposite direction in the last decade, I'm okay with being temporarily in the lower half of the strongest conference in D1 basketball, rather than being relegated to Patriot League status.
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Post by westendhoya on Mar 4, 2009 18:53:33 GMT -5
Giga, while I am in agreement with the idea behind your first post...JT3 is in no way a hired gun. He is committed to this program for the long fun. After the Final 4 season, word is that Kentucky came sniffing around but was totally rebuffed. JT3 could make much more at another program if that is what he was interested in.
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kghoya
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Post by kghoya on Mar 4, 2009 18:54:23 GMT -5
i really wish i could read what myself and others had posted man those were some "fun" times
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Mar 4, 2009 18:54:30 GMT -5
As for the Esherick comments. Have at it. If you want to console yourself by saying JTIII is better than Esh go ahead. JTIII is not an assistant you hand the keys to to presumably build from scratch. JTIII makes more than Jack Degioia. JTIII makes 5 Eshericks a year. So no matter what man-crush you have on him because he's not Esh, JTIII is what he is. He's a hired gun. And his first team that is entirely his has 10 players, 5 transfers, and 6 Big East wins. In short, he laid an egg. Aren't you the same guy that when Esherick was here was arguing that we'd never be great again because facilities are such an issue, and it's all about the money poured into the program and it's not really an Esherick problem? Your line of reasoning here is inconsistent and just plain pathetic. JTIII is not a hired gun - any hired gun would have left after the Final Four appearance because there would have been a much larger paycheck out there than what Georgetown could offer. Like Crean? I didn't realize he's been at Indiana 5 years. As for the money, yeah we still need it. We're riding on JTIII's name right now. He is John Thompson's son. I know that doesn't change the recruiting dynamics or anything. I mean, look at Bobby Gonzalez who was on everyone's short list for us. He's killing it at the Hall because of Xs and Os.
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Mar 4, 2009 18:57:07 GMT -5
Giga, while I am in agreement with the idea behind your first post...JT3 is in no way a hired gun. He is committed to this program for the long fun. After the Final 4 season, word is that Kentucky came sniffing around but was totally rebuffed. JT3 could make much more at another program if that is what he was interested in. I hope you're right. But he's making a substantial amount right now. Let's not lose sight of that. It does help obviously that he's JT's son. But if that doesn't become enough, what happens? I used Crean as an example because he signed a contract where he would be allowed to leave for Michigan State and then went to Indiana of all places. It's never a sure thing.
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Post by westendhoya on Mar 4, 2009 19:00:59 GMT -5
Giga, while I am in agreement with the idea behind your first post...JT3 is in no way a hired gun. He is committed to this program for the long fun. After the Final 4 season, word is that Kentucky came sniffing around but was totally rebuffed. JT3 could make much more at another program if that is what he was interested in. I hope you're right. But he's making a substantial amount right now. Let's not lose sight of that. It does help obviously that he's JT's son. But if that doesn't become enough, what happens? I used Crean as an example because he signed a contract where he would be allowed to leave for Michigan State and then went to Indiana of all places. It's never a sure thing. Of course in today's world you cannot take anything for granted...however one thing that I love about JT3 is his passion for and commitment to this program. It is something that I have seen from the beginning and was especially reinforced watching his speech at the 25th NC anniversary dinner. He really wants to succeed here not only for himself but for the school as well. That is why despite all my criticisms for some game-management type stuff...I want nobody else leading this program for a long..long time
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Mar 4, 2009 19:06:20 GMT -5
I hope you're right. But he's making a substantial amount right now. Let's not lose sight of that. It does help obviously that he's JT's son. But if that doesn't become enough, what happens? I used Crean as an example because he signed a contract where he would be allowed to leave for Michigan State and then went to Indiana of all places. It's never a sure thing. Of course in today's world you cannot take anything for granted...however one thing that I love about JT3 is his passion for and commitment to this program. It is something that I have seen from the beginning and was especially reinforced watching his speech at the 25th NC anniversary dinner. He really wants to succeed here not only for himself but for the school as well. That is why despite all my criticisms for some game-management type stuff...I want nobody else leading this program for a long..long time I hope so too. He is more important to us than we are to him for sure.
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