GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Mar 4, 2009 0:58:20 GMT -5
2005: Lose 5 straight. Out of the dance (forgive him, first year) 2006: Lose to winless USF and then blow a 15-point lead to 'Cuse in the BET (forgive him, we made the Sweet 16) 2007: Awesome 2008: Blow a 17-point lead to #7 seed Davidson in the 2nd round (forgive him, we were regular season champs) 2009: Blow an 15-point lead to St. Johns with the tournament on the line (Cincy and Seton Hall aside).
There is no fluke. There is no reason. JTIII for all his "close game" accolades in response to the Esherick criticisms did it with Esh's recruits. Yes, yes, we must all believe he "molded" those recruits. Esh would not have. It was III's tutelage that made them great. If we believe that, he deserves a million a year.
But this team is all his. And take away 2006-07 and the legacy gets blurry. It is one of tentative teams getting big leads in crucial situations, and losing them. It is one where nobody grabs Greg Monroe by the collar and tells him to take the shot. It is one where our talent is cautious and reserved and is afraid to score more than "their fair share" else ruffle feathers of the team and staff. It's one where we sit on the ball with 10 minutes left because we can "run the clock out" rather than attack and score.
This is the problem. Tonight was no fluke. Until someone looks at JTIII and tells him he plays not to lose in the second half of big games, we will not be a championship team.
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royski
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Post by royski on Mar 4, 2009 1:00:51 GMT -5
If that's all it takes, I'm sure he has a mentor or two who might've noticed.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Mar 4, 2009 1:04:22 GMT -5
It's not just III--I hate when any coach pulls the friggin ball out and doesn't continue to attack when they are ahead--it cost the '96 Hoyas the Big East Tournament Championship, Coach K does this frequently now--and it let Hoyas back into the game this year in Durham and cost him a likely national championship by blowing a 9pt lead against Uconn with 3 minutes left.
You've got to STEP ON OPPONENTS THROATS AND BURY THEM when they are down and it doesn't matter who the coach is--I feel this way. III is not the only guy who has done this--and it stinks in my opinion--but players also have to execute whatever is asked of them. If you get stops and score--you win. I just think you take aggression away from guys and they play tight.
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njhoya06
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Post by njhoya06 on Mar 4, 2009 1:06:30 GMT -5
RDF, you're completely right. I was going to say Coach K does this all the time, often to disastrous results.
It's like in football. The only thing the prevent defense prevents is victory.
That was awful to watch tonight.
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tjm62
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Post by tjm62 on Mar 4, 2009 1:15:54 GMT -5
JTIII would have to have a few more very disappointing seasons before I begin to question my perception of him as an excellent and capable coach.
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Bando
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Post by Bando on Mar 4, 2009 1:21:27 GMT -5
You know, I expect better from you, Giga. Your post is the very definition of cherry picking, and it epitomizes how unbelievably spoiled the fanbase here has gotten. Do you people even remember the Esherick era? I do, because year 1 of that era was my freshman year. Just to recap, this was Esh's profile:
1999: 1st Round NIT Loss (to fraking Princeton!) 2000: 2nd Round NIT Loss (to Berkley) 2001: Sweet Sixteen (given to us by sheer dumb luck) 2002: Declined NIT bid 2003: NIT Runner Up 2004: 1st Losing Season in 27 Years
Edit: 1st Losing season in 5 years--Hoyas were 15-16 in 1999.--Admin
At the time we were Editeded about Joe Lang thinking making the tournament every year was an unrealistic goal. We were Editeded because we hadn't won a Big East title in over a decade. We were Editeded because we were an afterthought in the college basketball world.
In JTIII's 5 years, he's given us the following:
- a Big East Tournament title - 2 Big East Regular Season Titles - a Regional Title - 3 NCAA appearances - McDonald All-American recruits
Which is pretty much exactly what we freaking wanted. To paint JTIII now as some sort of terrible coach is just the epitome of shortsightedness and straight-up whining. I'm sorry, but it's impossible for us to be absolutely great every goddamned year, and part of being a fan is realizing that sometimes your gratification has to be delayed.
Everyone keeps throwing around the Esherick years as analogous to this one, but if you ask me, we look an awful lot like that awful UConn team from few years ago. Obviously, that season doomed UConn to college basketball irrelevance forever.
You're a bunch of petulant babies, and you sicken me.
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njhoya06
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Post by njhoya06 on Mar 4, 2009 1:24:53 GMT -5
I think there's a difference between painting JTIII as a terrible coach and saying he butchered it tonight.
I love JTIII. I would give every penny of my life savings (admittedly not much) to keep him here. But his substitution patterns and the general thrust of our offense from the 9 minute mark on tonight was awful.
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Bando
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Post by Bando on Mar 4, 2009 1:28:18 GMT -5
I think there's a difference between painting JTIII as a terrible coach and saying he butchered it tonight. I love JTIII. I would give every penny of my life savings (admittedly not much) to keep him here. But his substitution patterns and the general thrust of our offense from the 9 minute mark on tonight was awful. I don't disagree. But Giga's talking about systemic problems that I don't think are there.
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Post by professorhoya on Mar 4, 2009 1:31:54 GMT -5
JTIII has put Georgetown back on the map as a premier college basketball program. His name, lineage and celebrity (if you want to call it that) is huge in attracting the best recruits and the media/ESPN.
I don't think that would have ever happened with anyone else. It would have taken along time to get back to national prominence with a Mike Brey caliber coach or name. And they probably would have left like Tim Creen for greener pastures if they were too successful. This is JT3's home. I can't see him leaving no matter how successful he is. The only way he'd leave is if the fans drove him out.
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Post by westendhoya on Mar 4, 2009 1:31:58 GMT -5
2005: Lose 5 straight. Out of the dance (forgive him, first year) 2006: Lose to winless USF and then blow a 15-point lead to 'Cuse in the BET (forgive him, we made the Sweet 16) 2007: Awesome 2008: Blow a 17-point lead to #7 seed Davidson in the 2nd round (forgive him, we were regular season champs) 2009: Blow an 15-point lead to St. Johns with the tournament on the line (Cincy and Seton Hall aside). There is no fluke. There is no reason. JTIII for all his "close game" accolades in response to the Esherick criticisms did it with Esh's recruits. Yes, yes, we must all believe he "molded" those recruits. Esh would not have. It was III's tutelage that made them great. If we believe that, he deserves a million a year. But this team is all his. And take away 2006-07 and the legacy gets blurry. It is one of tentative teams getting big leads in crucial situations, and losing them. It is one where nobody grabs Greg Monroe by the collar and tells him to take the shot. It is one where our talent is cautious and reserved and is afraid to score more than "their fair share" else ruffle feathers of the team and staff. It's one where we sit on the ball with 10 minutes left because we can "run the clock out" rather than attack and score. This is the problem. Tonight was no fluke. Until someone looks at JTIII and tells him he plays not to lose in the second half of big games, we will not be a championship team. I go back and forth with this all of the time. On one hand is the Final Four, 2 BE champ. & 1 BET...on the other is just what seems are pervasive problems that have been evident throughout his tenure. Rebounding...Learning to feed the post...Not giving up big leads have been issues from the beginning and it appears there has been no effort to correct them. The fact that this team could not be coached even onto the bubble this year is very worrying. The success the past few years definitely buy JT3 a mulligan this year but there is no way next year should not be a major success. On a side note, I am also starting to get a little worried about recruiting but thats a different story for a different day.
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Post by FHillsNYHoya on Mar 4, 2009 1:53:50 GMT -5
Bando,
My freshman year was 88-89. I've seen the best, and the worst, in the last 20 years (without the satisfaction of an NCAA title).
This was a HORRIFIC loss tonight. A game we cannot lose. Up 15 - LATE- tournament on the line. And we lose.
If you think a bit of that isn't on III, IMO, you are mistaken.
Trust me, watching the game in person, there were plenty of execution issues during the game. But among those around me (who are better x's and o's guys than I), we could have done better personnel-wise.
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momzer
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Post by momzer on Mar 4, 2009 1:54:21 GMT -5
I agree with a lot of what GIGA says, i.e. finishing the game. Prevent defense does NOT work in Football and it does NOT work in Basketball. The eerily similar stats that are presented is that we are content with a large lead and then sit on it. However, this year, especially with this young team, without a "leader", III should have known that no lead is safe and that we should continue to do what got us the lead. In the next year or so, when CW's decision making is better, when we are able to protect the ball better, when we have a true 3 pt shot maker, THEN, we can try to sit on a lead with better results. III should have realized this early in the season, such that we would have continued to put the pedal to the metal tonight. Failing that, we saw the results tonight, sadly.
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Bando
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Post by Bando on Mar 4, 2009 1:57:50 GMT -5
Bando, My freshman year was 88-89. I've seen the best, and the worst, in the last 20 years (without the satisfaction of an NCAA title). This was a HORRIFIC loss tonight. A game we cannot lose. Up 15 - LATE- tournament on the line. And we lose. If you think a bit of that isn't on III, IMO, you are mistaken. Trust me, watching the game in person, there were plenty of execution issues during the game. But among those around me (who are better x's and o's guys than I), we could have done better personnel-wise. My apologies, my response to Giga kind of encompassed a lot of other people as well. I am not at all saying that tonight wasn't a badly coached game, or even that JTIII hasn't done poorly this season. My point is that one bad game or bad season does not mean we should fire the coach, scrap the offense, or think that there's a pervasive deficiency in JTIII's coaching style. I think a lot of people have jumped on the hyperbole bus to Crazyland, and that's what I'm railing against. Giga was merely the last straw.
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Post by westendhoya on Mar 4, 2009 2:02:33 GMT -5
Bando, My freshman year was 88-89. I've seen the best, and the worst, in the last 20 years (without the satisfaction of an NCAA title). This was a HORRIFIC loss tonight. A game we cannot lose. Up 15 - LATE- tournament on the line. And we lose. If you think a bit of that isn't on III, IMO, you are mistaken. Trust me, watching the game in person, there were plenty of execution issues during the game. But among those around me (who are better x's and o's guys than I), we could have done better personnel-wise. My apologies, my response to Giga kind of encompassed a lot of other people as well. I am not at all saying that tonight wasn't a badly coached game, or even that JTIII hasn't done poorly this season. My point is that one bad game or bad season does not mean we should fire the coach, scrap the offense, or think that there's a pervasive deficiency in JTIII's coaching style. I think a lot of people have jumped on the hyperbole bus to Crazyland, and that's what I'm railing against. Giga was merely the last straw. Are you saying there are not pervasive in-game problems that have plagued the program the past few years?
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Bando
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Post by Bando on Mar 4, 2009 2:04:44 GMT -5
My apologies, my response to Giga kind of encompassed a lot of other people as well. I am not at all saying that tonight wasn't a badly coached game, or even that JTIII hasn't done poorly this season. My point is that one bad game or bad season does not mean we should fire the coach, scrap the offense, or think that there's a pervasive deficiency in JTIII's coaching style. I think a lot of people have jumped on the hyperbole bus to Crazyland, and that's what I'm railing against. Giga was merely the last straw. Are you saying there are not pervasive in-game problems that have plagued the program the past few years? "Plagued the program?" Where the hell have you been living? I guess that Final Four and Big East titles really "plague" us all the time. Your idea of a pervasive in-game problem is "not winning every game". That's ridiculous.
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Post by FHillsNYHoya on Mar 4, 2009 2:12:51 GMT -5
westend -
Not sure if you're addressing me, but in-game problems "plague" every program. You tend to have that when 18-21 year olds play.
The volume of them mystified me tonight, but so did the issues on the bench.
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sleepy
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Post by sleepy on Mar 4, 2009 2:12:53 GMT -5
I agree 100% with pretty much everything you have said in this thread Bando. Tonight sucked, and unfortunatly I was almost expecting it. This is just not our year, for a variety of reasons. I think JTIII's biggest flaw this year has been substitution patterns. I have absolutley no idea whats going on with that, but hopefully it is fixed for next season.
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Post by FHillsNYHoya on Mar 4, 2009 2:14:19 GMT -5
I wish that substitution patterns (which definitely were bad IMO) were the only reason we lost tonight.
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Post by westendhoya on Mar 4, 2009 2:14:46 GMT -5
Are you saying there are not pervasive in-game problems that have plagued the program the past few years? "Plagued the program?" Where the hell have you been living? I guess that Final Four and Big East titles really "plague" us all the time. Your idea of a pervasive in-game problem is "not winning every game". That's ridiculous. Not what I am saying at all. There is no question JT3 has done an outstanding job here and there is nobody else I would want leading this program. However, there are certain problems that have been here the past few years. 1. Rebounding... I don't know that stats, but I am sure we have been one of the worst teams and giving off Offensive rebounds in the country the last few years. It seems as there as been no focus on this issue as players still refuse to block out properly and be aggressive on the boards 2. Feeding the Post... This has been a major issue since Hibbert's junior year or so when he became a legitimate post presence. We refuse to feed the post on one-on-one situations and I cannot count how many times Hibbert/Monroe would make picks at the top of the key, have a smaller defender switch on them, post up, yet still not receive the pass into them. Again, I haven't seen any effort in this area the past few years. 3. Inability to hold big leads See post #1 4. Inability to inject emotion into the team Without PE jr., there has been very little emotion from the team. I know thats JT3's coaching style but sometimes I think a little screaming or at least faking getting upset would be useful. 5. Lack of accountability from the players I think this stems from JT3's calmness and lack of emotion (which is also a big positive in other areas). It seems that the SAME players make the SAME mistakes game in and game out without being corrected. Dajuan's lazy passes, Greg's refusal to go up strong, stepping on the out of bounds line 5 times a game etc... *Like I said, JT3 is the right man for this program without question. However, to say that this will be an elite program without some structural changes or introspective change from the coach is naive and, unfortunately, wrong.
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Mar 4, 2009 7:49:54 GMT -5
Are you saying there are not pervasive in-game problems that have plagued the program the past few years? "Plagued the program?" Where the hell have you been living? I guess that Final Four and Big East titles really "plague" us all the time. Your idea of a pervasive in-game problem is "not winning every game". That's ridiculous. 2007 was great (The FF and Big East title of which you speak). Take it away, and what you have is 4 years where we beat Ohio State and every other time the chips were down, we blew it in catastrophic ways. That's not cherry-picking. I'm talking about the moments when the tournament (5 straight), a bye (USF), the BET ('cuse), and our season (Davidson) were on the line. That's a trend. Last night was the culmination of all of it. We lost to an inferior team AND we lost a huge lead late. And it was the way we lost it again that killed me. This wasn't Marcus Hatten picking the pocket of future NC State 8th man Tony Bethel. No, this was a talented, but young team told to sit on the ball and wait for the clock to run out from 10 minutes on. The softness of this team and its strategy is more than concerning because it is JTIII's first full team of recruits. So this is his team and he is in a dream situation for most. Because he is JTIII, the excitement has given him access to top-level recruits. But while talented, they're soft and getting softer by the day. The play that typifies this season for me is at Syracuse when we played for the last shot of the half with 40.9 seconds left and of course, ran out of time and gave it back to the Orange with 5.9 seconds left. That's our mentality. That's a real, real problem. Every time the shot clock ticked to two last night and we shot a fade away that rimmed out, when we didn't even think about token pressure with 15 seconds left to make them use clock, and when Greg threw passes out of bounds when he was 2 feet from the rim, I could only think of one word: CAUTIOUS. We're so cautious, we demoted our fire and reckless abandon to the bench. That's what we are and it won't get better unless something changes.
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